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Really.. REALLY?
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baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#81 - 2012-02-26 17:51:20 UTC
Riedle wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Riedle wrote:


I bolded the relevant part for you. This was independant research. Understandably - people against Euthenasia rallied around it.


And I suppose they also gave the case by case reason as to why the doctors made their choice?


Does it matter if they did? You would just make another excuse for it anyways.


Yes it would. The numbers mentioned would more than likely fit in with most if not all cases where the "victim" was on life support and nothing more could be done. Taking numbers without knowing the facts behind them is the scurge of all science.
Liam Mirren
#82 - 2012-02-26 18:05:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Liam Mirren
Riedle wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Riedle wrote:


I bolded the relevant part for you. This was independant research. Understandably - people against Euthenasia rallied around it.


And I suppose they also gave the case by case reason as to why the doctors made their choice?


Does it matter if they did? You would just make another excuse for it anyways.


It does as that is the whole point, each and everyone of them is some religious group or similar. The guy that wrote a book on it also wrote a book on how evil abortion is. ie, they have a vested interest in it.

Reality is very simple, I live in Holland and deal with elder folks a whole lot. No amount of pressure group "studies" can counter the simple factual truth of it not happening as they state.

Excellence is not a skill, it's an attitude.
Adunh Slavy
#83 - 2012-02-26 19:09:01 UTC
Jhagiti Tyran wrote:

Victims of incompetence or malpractice being able to file lawsuits isn't enough, there are issues like someone dying and having no next of kin and the fact that sometimes money cannot really compensate but those are secondary to the main reason. Industry regulation, in any industry doesn't simply provide consequences for when things go wrong it also attempts to stop things from going wrong in the first place. Victims suing only provides consequence and deterrent, when peoples quality of life or even their lives are at stake that's not enough there needs to be as many ways to ensure patient safety as possible.

You do have a point about regulation being a mess, I am from the UK so I have personal experience of US health care but I would imagine its regulations are the same as most places and is inefficient, outdated, over complicated and in many cases simply not fit for purpose. But that doesn't mean it should be abandoned, just that it needs more work and possibly more investment.


I agree with your basic sentiment, some guidelines, rules, regulations are needed in some areas.

The problem becomes by who, for who, who enforces and to what degree. Far too often these rules take from the liberty and property of some, and by use of the force of the state, give it to others. Many of these rules and regulations are of the "two wrongs do make a right" variety. This is theft by the state, all too often done in the name of justice.

It is not my position that all rules and regulations are bad, but if they are rules and regulation that infringe upon the life, liberty and property of one, for the gain of another, I've issue with it. This is the sort of position that lefty fruit loops and right wing nut jobs just can never understand, for they are often unknowingly, collectivist authoritarians.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
Riedle
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#84 - 2012-02-26 19:16:34 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Riedle wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Riedle wrote:


I bolded the relevant part for you. This was independant research. Understandably - people against Euthenasia rallied around it.


And I suppose they also gave the case by case reason as to why the doctors made their choice?


Does it matter if they did? You would just make another excuse for it anyways.


Yes it would. The numbers mentioned would more than likely fit in with most if not all cases where the "victim" was on life support and nothing more could be done. Taking numbers without knowing the facts behind them is the scurge of all science.


Nah, the travesty against science is demonstrated in your post. abject ignorance of a study because you simply do not like the conclusions.

Quote:
But in 15 percent of cases the doctors avoided any discussion because they thought they were acting in the patient's best interests.


Even in the Netherlands, this is still against the law not to mention the hippocratic oath..
No wonder some old people there are afraid to go to the Hospital.
Riedle
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#85 - 2012-02-26 19:18:25 UTC
Quote:

It does as that is the whole point, each and everyone of them is some religious group or similar. The guy that wrote a book on it also wrote a book on how evil abortion is. ie, they have a vested interest in it.

Reality is very simple, I live in Holland and deal with elder folks a whole lot. No amount of pressure group "studies" can counter the simple factual truth of it not happening as they state.



I see. Well if reality is on 'your side' then I am assuming you will be able to trot out a peer-reviewed refutation of this study then?

otherwise you would be best off just going back to calling Americans stupid as you are starting to look a little silly on this subject yourself.

lol
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#86 - 2012-02-26 19:40:16 UTC
Riedle wrote:


Nah, the travesty against science is demonstrated in your post. abject ignorance of a study because you simply do not like the conclusions.



I question any conclusions when I do not have access to all of the facts behind it. What you are doing is posting up a single small scale study then attacking people who question it because of the lack of information behind it including someone who have first hand experience. This is a fine example of bad science. You seem to be exactly the sort of person who belives the rubbish that comes out of that mans mouth.
Riedle
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#87 - 2012-02-26 19:47:04 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Riedle wrote:


Nah, the travesty against science is demonstrated in your post. abject ignorance of a study because you simply do not like the conclusions.



I question any conclusions when I do not have access to all of the facts behind it. What you are doing is posting up a single small scale study then attacking people who question it because of the lack of information behind it including someone who have first hand experience. This is a fine example of bad science. You seem to be exactly the sort of person who belives the rubbish that comes out of that mans mouth.



lol

Ok, this is just precious. I love it.

I present evidence from a peer reviewed, published scientific study as being superior to anecdotal evidence from an anonymous poster on an internet spaceship forum and I am the one against science?

LOL

Thanks for the laffs.
Adunh Slavy
#88 - 2012-02-26 19:51:09 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Adunh Slavy wrote:
Merin Ryskin wrote:

And this is a case of government not working.


Good. The less those people can accomplish, they less they harm they will do.




Actually the exact opposite is happening.




Sadly too often true. They get the left-right sheep to fight over stupid things while the powered interests do what ever they want on the more important issues.

Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.  - William Pitt
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#89 - 2012-02-26 19:51:14 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Riedle wrote:



lol

Ok, this is just precious. I love it.

I present evidence from a peer reviewed, published scientific study as being superior to anecdotal evidence from an anonymous poster on an internet spaceship forum and I am the one against science?

LOL

Thanks for the laffs.


You posted quotes not the study. Quotes that seem to run agaist what I am finding in the conclutions of the 10 papers I have read so far.
Jhagiti Tyran
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#90 - 2012-02-27 02:55:26 UTC
Riedle wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Riedle wrote:


Nah, the travesty against science is demonstrated in your post. abject ignorance of a study because you simply do not like the conclusions.



I question any conclusions when I do not have access to all of the facts behind it. What you are doing is posting up a single small scale study then attacking people who question it because of the lack of information behind it including someone who have first hand experience. This is a fine example of bad science. You seem to be exactly the sort of person who belives the rubbish that comes out of that mans mouth.



lol

Ok, this is just precious. I love it.

I present evidence from a peer reviewed, published scientific study as being superior to anecdotal evidence from an anonymous poster on an internet spaceship forum and I am the one against science?

LOL

Thanks for the laffs.


To be fair you didn't post an academic peer review you just posted a quote, I don't doubt you are posting a legit quote but it would be great if you could link a source. I wouldn't mind reading the whole study myself.