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The case for assault frigates?
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Kessiaan
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#21 - 2012-02-19 23:52:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Kessiaan
I'm mixed on the new AFs.

They're even better at what they were already good at it - smallish solo ships and the DPS backbone of wolfpack gangs, and they're all pretty good in these roles now, rather than the two or three there were before.

As light tackle in midsize BC and cruiser gangs (10-20ish) they still DIAF because they have to go in close. Even dual prop and packing NOS to counter neuts the lack of any real disengagement options puts them at a huge disadvantage compared to interceptors, and for a few million more you can buy a dictor and throw bubbles while you're dying a fire. Personally I've had far more success flying scram BCs as close-in tackle than my Jag, simply because they have so much more EHP.

KB Link
AmIDeadyet
Ringworm Industries
#22 - 2012-02-20 00:58:44 UTC
mxzf wrote:
Yeah, testing a frig hull against a dual-web Cane with neuts and complaining that it dies is like complaining that the interceptor managed to land point on your ship. No duh; that's what it's designed to do. A dual-web Cane with neuts is pretty much THE anti-frig ship and 'testing' a frig against it and calling that the baseline is pretty stupid.


And the Rupture? Basically any ship with a web,and/ or neut which are pretty darn common utility items will mess up your AF. The 50% sig reduction isn't enough to save you if anything starts shooting at you from range while you MWD, you will be hit. Your sig is still cruiser sized. You don't have the survivability to take much damage, you have passable speed with an afterburner, and anything USING a MWD you are after will outrun you. So should you field a T2 25mil+ AF to MAYBE survive to tackle a basic Rupture fit? I would argue that is a losing proposition. An inty would survive, and costs half as much. Is your T2 out to hunt T1 frigates? A destroyer can do that, and you can lose 3-4 of them before the costs even up.
AmIDeadyet
Ringworm Industries
#23 - 2012-02-20 01:33:57 UTC  |  Edited by: AmIDeadyet
Liang Nuren wrote:
AmIDeadyet wrote:
That is precisely the thing that we tested. And came up with a resounding "no" even post buff. Any ship with a web and or neuts is going to make that AF dangerous to fly. Anything with a MWD you can't catch except for maybe some battleships, if you fit a MWD your sig makes you vulnerable to almost any gun size.


They say a picture says a thousand words, so I figure some videos ought to say more:
http://vimeo.com/34665420 -- This is pre AF boost
http://vimeo.com/35642474 -- This is post AF boost (mostly).

I've got about 1.5 hours of footage not in videos right now and some of it I'm sure never will make it. However, I've got at least 3 videos in production right now... but its looking more and more like Amamake Fun IV and Amamake Fun V will come out simultaneously.

Anyway, AFs are damn near OP.

-Liang


Liang I respect your opinion in the Eve community as you probably have more skill and experience than I do.

However, that being said, there isn't much I saw in either of those videos that I could point out and say was "AF specific" contribution. In video 1, it was mostly gang duty, so not much could be discerned there. Any of those tackles in video 2, could they not have been performed by any interceptor? Towards the middle of the video when you were fighting the ferox, THAT is precisely the scenario we replicated and in every situation, the AF was doomed. You got neuted, webbed and shot up a lot. If you didn't have backup and had to go it alone, do you think you would have lived? At any point when you were doing a whopping 40ms if those guys had decided to focus you, you would have been scrapped. Even medium guns at that speed would have hit you. The ferox pilot just sat there and tried to orbit, if he had flow straight at any point your transversal would have dropped, the same with the Brutix pilot earlier. If you tried to bug out, you would have lost transversal and his guns would have done more damage. If you didn't, don't you think you would have ran out of cap boosters? The only thing I saw in those videos was a lot of "wtf" and some new knowledge that there are a lot of bad pilots that can be taken down by frigate hulls. Do you think an interceptor could have done the same job without taking any damage, or being subject to neuts? I know they aren't as "sexy", but would that not have been interchangable for what was accomplished? Or any cruiser? Or a HAC? Yet even faster? This is not to downplay your skill or experience, but I saw nothing there that I can say "I could only have done that in an AF" or "only an AF would have survived that".

At least we have gotten to discussion as opposed to the previous rhetorical generalities.
Mechael
Tribal Liberation Distribution and Retail
#24 - 2012-02-20 02:12:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Mechael
Barring large neuts or neuts with range bonuses, I don't have much problems tackling with my arty jag. Get the range of my arties to just inside of maximum warp disrupt distance (22-23 optimal should be fine if you're using a standard warp disrupt II.) With it, I can swat interceptors before they know what's happening to them thanks to the high alpha the arties give me, and I'm still tough enough to take the odd glancing blows or residual missile damage. And I damn sure as hell stay way far away from web range.

I can't move around and provide tackles as quickly as an interceptor, but I'm pretty convinced I could hold a tackle much longer while also putting the hurt on someone. Potentially across the entire battlefield if I bring some ranged ammo with me.

Whether or not you win the game matters not.  It's if you bought it.
Rel'k Bloodlor
Federation Front Line Report
Federation Front Line
#25 - 2012-02-20 02:20:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Rel'k Bloodlor
I believe the roll of all assault ships is to deal damage for as long as possible.
If in testing you gave them a point, you technically gimped there fit. (I know we all fly them with points but Interceptors are the T2 frigg hull with the role of putting points on stuff)
Testing them vs. cepters, pirate ships(witch are hybrids of 2 roles) and destroyers will lead to mixed results unless you push your assault ship to the limit. If you assume the other ship is pointed and just build for tank and DPS you will find they do there job quite well.

I wanted to paint my space ship red, but I couldn't find enough goats. 
AmIDeadyet
Ringworm Industries
#26 - 2012-02-20 02:22:47 UTC
Mechael wrote:
Barring large neuts or neuts with range bonuses, I don't have much problems tackling with my arty jag. Get the range of my arties to just inside of maximum warp disrupt distance (22-23 optimal should be fine if you're using a standard warp disrupt II.) With it, I can swat interceptors before they know what's happening to them thanks to the high alpha the arties give me, and I'm still tough enough to take the odd glancing blows or residual missile damage. And I damn sure as hell stay way far away from web range.

I can't move around and provide tackles as quickly as an interceptor, but I'm pretty convinced I could hold a tackle much longer while also putting the hurt on someone. Potentially across the entire battlefield if I bring some ranged ammo with me.


How do you hold range against anything with a MWD? If you are to the edge of point range, even one minor mistake will result in either you dying or losing the target. You aren't as maneuverable as an inty, and you aren't as fast as one. Can you not do the same thing with an arty thrasher with better tracking and higher alpha?
AmIDeadyet
Ringworm Industries
#27 - 2012-02-20 02:28:56 UTC
Rel'k Bloodlor wrote:
I believe the roll of all assault ship is to deal damage for as long as possible.
If in testing you gave them a point, you technically gimped there fit. (I know we all fly them with points but Interceptors are the T2 frigg hull with the role of putting points on stuff)
Testing them vs. cepters, pirate ships(witch are hybrids of 2 roles) and destroyers will lead to mixed results unless you push your assault ship to the limit. If you assume the other ship is pointed and just build for tank and DPS you will find they do there job quite well.


Then how would you go about doing this? If you goal is max dps, doesn't a destroyer do it better, for a fraction of the cost? If you don't fit a point, can you be assured your target will stay there? Some of the pilots I fly with are excellent, far better than myself, but the only way to make sure a target is pointed, is to do it yourself. If your goal is long term dps,would not a cruiser do more, with more health, and a lot of them would still be cheaper options.
AmIDeadyet
Ringworm Industries
#28 - 2012-02-20 02:30:11 UTC
Kessiaan wrote:

As light tackle in midsize BC and cruiser gangs (10-20ish) they still DIAF because they have to go in close. Even dual prop and packing NOS to counter neuts the lack of any real disengagement options puts them at a huge disadvantage compared to interceptors, and for a few million more you can buy a dictor and throw bubbles while you're dying a fire. Personally I've had far more success flying scram BCs as close-in tackle than my Jag, simply because they have so much more EHP.


This is pretty much what we concluded.
Zarnak Wulf
Task Force 641
Empyrean Edict
#29 - 2012-02-20 02:34:58 UTC
Finally home from work so I'll get this a full response...

AF vs. other frigates:
AF give up some speed to get a tremendous DPS and tank advantage. There's alot of options here. You mentioned ships such as the slicer being better. To be honest - if i'm in a AC Jaguar or Blaster Enyo and see a Slicer on dscan - I'm leaving. If, however, I have an Arty Jag or Rail Enyo - I'll stay and chances are I'll chase the other frigate away away. Know your strengths and weaknesses before you engage. P

I also fit differently for what I want to do. Against other frigates I want as much DPS as possible. I fight alot of battles 1v1 and I need to put the other guy down fast before reinforcements show up. More gank. Small nuet preferred. Tank is an afterthought. That's not how I fit if I want to be heavy tackle.

AF. vs. Destroyers:
They both share roles as frigate destroyers. All have serious gank. However, the larger signature radii of dessies means they can't really expand their role beyond killing frigates. You go up against a larger ship in a destroyer and you are very likely to be swatted. AF have the EHP AND resistances to multitask.

AF. vs. Cruisers and above
I want a nos, the largest buffer I can squeeze on, and the highest resists. DPS is now the afterthought. You mentioned an armour fitted cane before hand. Well - if it's not the shield fit variety you may not have the feared TE II that many Minmatar fit - or less of them. An arty jag with a long point and a cap booster would be the way to go. But beyond that - many AF have 3,4, or even 5 midpoints. A nos and a cap booster makes a frigate much more nuet resistant. 4 of the AF as well do not have weapons that are reliant on cap. I don't have to beat a larger ship one on one. That's not the point of an AF. I just have to hump your leg for 30-45 seconds. If you haven't killed me by then you're going to be having other problems. Pirate
Rel'k Bloodlor
Federation Front Line Report
Federation Front Line
#30 - 2012-02-20 02:48:09 UTC
AmIDeadyet wrote:
Rel'k Bloodlor wrote:
I believe the roll of all assault ship is to deal damage for as long as possible.
If in testing you gave them a point, you technically gimped there fit. (I know we all fly them with points but Interceptors are the T2 frigg hull with the role of putting points on stuff)
Testing them vs. cepters, pirate ships(witch are hybrids of 2 roles) and destroyers will lead to mixed results unless you push your assault ship to the limit. If you assume the other ship is pointed and just build for tank and DPS you will find they do there job quite well.


Then how would you go about doing this? If you goal is max dps, doesn't a destroyer do it better, for a fraction of the cost? If you don't fit a point, can you be assured your target will stay there? Some of the pilots I fly with are excellent, far better than myself, but the only way to make sure a target is pointed, is to do it yourself. If your goal is long term dps,would not a cruiser do more, with more health, and a lot of them would still be cheaper options.


Its all about tool for the job. It's not that you can't put a point on an assault ship its just not the job there built entirely for. Yes a destroyer dose more DPS, but so do most larger hulls. The Assault frigg with no point has more tank then the dessie. The dessi will for the most part do more damage then an assault frig. Talking about effectiveness and cost across multiple hulls and roles is not a fare and even comparison.

I wanted to paint my space ship red, but I couldn't find enough goats. 
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#31 - 2012-02-20 03:33:27 UTC
Imma answer your questions topically, which may mean I move stuff around in your post.

AmIDeadyet wrote:
Any of those tackles in video 2, could they not have been performed by any interceptor?
...
The only thing I saw in those videos was a lot of "wtf" and some new knowledge that there are a lot of bad pilots that can be taken down by frigate hulls. Do you think an interceptor could have done the same job without taking any damage, or being subject to neuts?


The only Inty that has a prayer of replicating the Harpy's role in those videos is the Taranis, and frankly it lacks the tank. I've got a video that's going into Amamake Fun V really illustrates the problem: a single Drake + Rifter puts my Ranis into Hull before we can kill the rifter. Even then I have lots of trouble with the drones.

Honestly if you think an interceptor can do that job just as well as the Harpy, I'd like to see the videos of you doing it. Because what the Harpy did wasn't just holding people on the field - it was tanking the field and scoring top damage+killing blow on most of it.

Quote:
Towards the middle of the video when you were fighting the ferox, THAT is precisely the scenario we replicated and in every situation, the AF was doomed. You got neuted, webbed and shot up a lot. If you didn't have backup and had to go it alone, do you think you would have lived? At any point when you were doing a whopping 40ms if those guys had decided to focus you, you would have been scrapped. Even medium guns at that speed would have hit you.


You apparently didn't notice, but I was being focus fired during that fight - almost for the entirety of it. And yes, those medium guns were hitting me. I'm the primary target for 2 SFI, Ferox, Claw, and Vexor Navy from 6:30 to 8:05 when the SFIs decide to shoot something else. During that time, I'm at least triple webbed, scrammed, and neuted.

Quote:
The ferox pilot just sat there and tried to orbit, if he had flow straight at any point your transversal would have dropped, the same with the Brutix pilot earlier. If you tried to bug out, you would have lost transversal and his guns would have done more damage. If you didn't, don't you think you would have ran out of cap boosters?


Go watch the first video again. The Harbinger does exactly what you say he should have done - including the whole neut and web thing. And hell, its firing straight at my resist hole. Oh, and that was even before AFs got boosted. And guess who died? Also, if I ran out of cap boosters I'd have died... but that's true of any active tanked ship.

Quote:

I know they aren't as "sexy", but would that not have been interchangable for what was accomplished? Or any cruiser? Or a HAC? Yet even faster? This is not to downplay your skill or experience, but I saw nothing there that I can say "I could only have done that in an AF" or "only an AF would have survived that".


The question isn't whether or not I could have survived the fight in a Titan or Supercarrier - its whether an Inty (or any other Frig/Destroyer hull) could have performed the same duty. And the answer to that is NO. And considering how much of the tank is actually a sig tank, I'd have been really surprised if any HAC hull could have done it either.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Ryder 3vyn
Doomheim
#32 - 2012-02-20 04:01:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Ryder 3vyn
AmIDeadyet wrote:
How do you hold range against anything with a MWD? If you are to the edge of point range, even one minor mistake will result in either you dying or losing the target. You aren't as maneuverable as an inty, and you aren't as fast as one. Can you not do the same thing with an arty thrasher with better tracking and higher alpha?

My personal arty Jag does 3,271 M/S without any implants with still over 6K EHP and 120 DPS at long range. It is fast and agile, like a Vagabond. In terms of having an epic combination of speed, tiny signature radius, agility and tank, the Jaguar trumps the Thrasher with ease.

AmIDeadyet wrote:
Then how would you go about doing this? If you goal is max dps, doesn't a destroyer do it better, for a fraction of the cost? If you don't fit a point, can you be assured your target will stay there? Some of the pilots I fly with are excellent, far better than myself, but the only way to make sure a target is pointed, is to do it yourself. If your goal is long term dps,would not a cruiser do more, with more health, and a lot of them would still be cheaper options.

No, it absolutely does not do it better. AFs have better DPS and much better speed, signature radius, agility and tank, so they can apply that DPS for far longer, and they do all of this without forgoing tackle.
AmIDeadyet
Ringworm Industries
#33 - 2012-02-20 04:42:41 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:

The only Inty that has a prayer of replicating the Harpy's role in those videos is the Taranis, and frankly it lacks the tank. I've got a video that's going into Amamake Fun V really illustrates the problem: a single Drake + Rifter puts my Ranis into Hull before we can kill the rifter. Even then I have lots of trouble with the drones.

Honestly if you think an interceptor can do that job just as well as the Harpy, I'd like to see the videos of you doing it. Because what the Harpy did wasn't just holding people on the field - it was tanking the field and scoring top damage+killing blow on most of it.

You apparently didn't notice, but I was being focus fired during that fight - almost for the entirety of it. And yes, those medium guns were hitting me. I'm the primary target for 2 SFI, Ferox, Claw, and Vexor Navy from 6:30 to 8:05 when the SFIs decide to shoot something else. During that time, I'm at least triple webbed, scrammed, and neuted.

Go watch the first video again. The Harbinger does exactly what you say he should have done - including the whole neut and web thing. And hell, its firing straight at my resist hole. Oh, and that was even before AFs got boosted. And guess who died? Also, if I ran out of cap boosters I'd have died... but that's true of any active tanked ship.

The question isn't whether or not I could have survived the fight in a Titan or Supercarrier - its whether an Inty (or any other Frig/Destroyer hull) could have performed the same duty. And the answer to that is NO. And considering how much of the tank is actually a sig tank, I'd have been really surprised if any HAC hull could have done it either.

-Liang


Appreciate the dialog Liang. There is one major thing that I cannot resolve from your response. In the middle of the fight where you were tripped webbed, scrammed, neuted, shot at etc.. If the WHOLE fleet was indeed shooting at you, when you were moving a grand total of 40m/s, how were they not hitting you. At that speed, ANY gun size, other than BS guns at point blank, should have been hitting you for mostly full damage. I did see A/C 180s, warrior 2s, and HH2's attacking you (wtf HHs?), but tracking and signature mean nothing when you are barely moving, even in a small ship. Is there something I am assuming wrongly, mis understanding, or not seeing? I will re-watch. But in the tests we did, double webs was enough for a hurrice with barrage and 425s to put a jag out of commission (which is hardly the best combo for tracking) once he drifted outside of about 2k.
Cedo Nulli
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#34 - 2012-02-20 04:43:38 UTC
I dont get it why people in some countries dont believe in evolution. Its the only thing that will solve issues with folks like the OP ... by snuffing them out with natural selection.


If your AF is slower then anything but battleships with MWDs then you need to invest some more into navigation skills.

Allso if in your "tests" you would be able to solokill a hurricane with dualweb and neut ... guess how OP the AFs would be ?
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#35 - 2012-02-20 04:48:19 UTC
AmIDeadyet wrote:

Appreciate the dialog Liang. There is one major thing that I cannot resolve from your response. In the middle of the fight where you were tripped webbed, scrammed, neuted, shot at etc.. If the WHOLE fleet was indeed shooting at you, when you were moving a grand total of 40m/s, how were they not hitting you. At that speed, ANY gun size, other than BS guns at point blank, should have been hitting you for mostly full damage. I did see A/C 180s, warrior 2s, and HH2's attacking you (wtf HHs?), but tracking and signature mean nothing when you are barely moving, even in a small ship. Is there something I am assuming wrongly, mis understanding, or not seeing? I will re-watch. But in the tests we did, double webs was enough for a hurrice with barrage and 425s to put a jag out of commission (which is hardly the best combo for tracking) once he drifted outside of about 2k.


I think what you're missing is how awesome Caldari T2 resists are. Warrior IIs, HH IIs, and PP AC180s do literally fuckall.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
AmIDeadyet
Ringworm Industries
#36 - 2012-02-20 04:53:47 UTC
Cedo Nulli wrote:
I dont get it why people in some countries dont believe in evolution. Its the only thing that will solve issues with folks like the OP ... by snuffing them out with natural selection.


If your AF is slower then anything but battleships with MWDs then you need to invest some more into navigation skills.

Allso if in your "tests" you would be able to solokill a hurricane with dualweb and neut ... guess how OP the AFs would be ?


Yawn. Empty rhetoric.

The idea isn't to SOLO said ship, it is to not die horribly. And again, with your "inherent better genetic pedigree" as you imply, explain how your MWDing (because you said it is faster than a BS, and an all 5s with a t2 AB does barely 1k m/s) AF with its blown up sig radius isn't shot to death by anything with half a brain? Even with 425s, and Barrage (which is the worst concievable tracking scenario for medium guns) I am going to be doing over 100 dps a second, SITTING STILL. If I move, which you can't stop me from doing without a scram or some help, your orbit is eventually going to elongate making it even EASIER to do damage and a lot more of it. That is without me even trying, that is with flying in a straight line. If you screw up ONE TIME, and venture into web range, neut range, or anything close to that, you will die horribly. So if you want to have legit discussion, STFU, read the posts, and bring something constructive to the table.

There are several points that thusfar have been un-refuted or have yet to been provided evidence to the contrary. Unless you have some glowing insight or new information or suggestions, you waste your energy posting that garbage.
AmIDeadyet
Ringworm Industries
#37 - 2012-02-20 05:37:27 UTC
Ryder 3vyn wrote:
My personal arty Jag does 3,271 M/S without any implants with still over 6K EHP and 120 DPS at long range. It is fast and agile, like a Vagabond. In terms of having an epic combination of speed, tiny signature radius, agility and tank, the Jaguar trumps the Thrasher with ease.


Please link your fit. There are a number of problems with everything you are claiming.

1. If you are doing 3k m/s you are microwarping. If you are MWDing your sig radius is almost cruiser sized. Hardly epic. Against even 425 ACs with Barrage (terrible for tracking small objects) I would still be hitting you. If I saw you coming, you wouldn't get close enough to establish orbit without dying horribly. This doesn't account for any shield mods you use as tank (common practice for a lot of jag fits) which would blow up your sig even more. If you are MWDing I can as well, If I fly in a straight line, eventually your orbit will elongate, making it easier for my guns to track doing more damage. Even sitting still, my guns will still hit you. If you screw up once, you get scrammed/webbed/neuted and die horribly.

2. 6k efhp, is 1k less than your cookie cutter AC thrasher build. The thrasher is several times cheaper, and does bucketloads more damage.

3. 120dps is less than half of an AC thrasher with barrage, an arty thrasher does double that as well. With tremor it is still 50% more with MUCH better tracking. Your average RIFTER fit, does almost 120 dps. You paid 75 times more for that assault frigate.

4. If you are doing your claimed 120 dps with no implants, you aren't using tremor, and therefore have to be in scram/web/neut range. Even with full damage mods I can't get 120dps without using standard or faction ammo, meaning your optimal isn't long enough to avoid being caught.

5. You claim to be doing this all with tackle, if you are doing all this in 24k point range, I can still hit you with guns, and one screwup you are dead. With an arty thrasher you aren't tackling therefore if i feel threatened I just go to 40k + and range the guns.

If you have a fit or some sort of proof to dispute this, please fire away. Having an in system booster does not count.
AmIDeadyet
Ringworm Industries
#38 - 2012-02-20 05:47:40 UTC
Rel'k Bloodlor wrote:
AmIDeadyet wrote:
Rel'k Bloodlor wrote:
I believe the roll of all assault ship is to deal damage for as long as possible.
If in testing you gave them a point, you technically gimped there fit. (I know we all fly them with points but Interceptors are the T2 frigg hull with the role of putting points on stuff)
Testing them vs. cepters, pirate ships(witch are hybrids of 2 roles) and destroyers will lead to mixed results unless you push your assault ship to the limit. If you assume the other ship is pointed and just build for tank and DPS you will find they do there job quite well.


Then how would you go about doing this? If you goal is max dps, doesn't a destroyer do it better, for a fraction of the cost? If you don't fit a point, can you be assured your target will stay there? Some of the pilots I fly with are excellent, far better than myself, but the only way to make sure a target is pointed, is to do it yourself. If your goal is long term dps,would not a cruiser do more, with more health, and a lot of them would still be cheaper options.


Its all about tool for the job. It's not that you can't put a point on an assault ship its just not the job there built entirely for. Yes a destroyer dose more DPS, but so do most larger hulls. The Assault frigg with no point has more tank then the dessie. The dessi will for the most part do more damage then an assault frig. Talking about effectiveness and cost across multiple hulls and roles is not a fare and even comparison.


It IS all about a proper tool for the job. Are you wanting to shoot other frigates/ small stuff? Bring a destroyer/faction frigate.
Tackling? An inty/faction frigate.

Your decision in a fleet is going to be to fly a boat that is 4-5x times a thrasher, but cant dps better than one, and can't tackle as well as an inty (which is half the cost as well)? Trying to do both means you wont do either well. If you try to tackle anything significant, webs/neuts will ensure you die. If your game is dps, a thrasher does far more, and for a lot less risk and money, all with more tracking, and livable health. What niche is the AF trying to fill? Im not seeing one outside of extreme range sniper fits (harpy) and something like the ishkur that brings drones to the table in a small platform.
Darthewok
Perkone
Caldari State
#39 - 2012-02-20 06:01:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Darthewok
Fleet+AFs vs Fleet+Inties: AFs kill all the Inties-->
Fleet+AFs vs Fleet with no frigates: Fleet+AFs has more DPS due to the AFs-->
Fleet+AFs wins

CAVEAT RICHARDUS VOLVERE - YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#40 - 2012-02-20 06:02:10 UTC
AmIDeadyet wrote:
If you try to tackle anything significant, webs/neuts will ensure you die.


You keep saying this but I have literally hours of video proof showing it wrong.

Quote:
If your game is dps, a thrasher does far more, and for a lot less risk and money, all with more tracking, and livable health. What niche is the AF trying to fill? Im not seeing one outside of extreme range sniper fits (harpy) and something like the ishkur that brings drones to the table in a small platform.


A thrasher is an easy target that's easily killed the first time a HAC looks its way. That's not true for AFs.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.