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Ships scanners… Why no defense against them ?

Author
Sam Bowein
Sense Amid Madness
#1 - 2012-02-19 10:51:30 UTC
Hey guys,

I was wondering about ship scanners and their effect on suicide ganking: don't they give a little too much information with absolutely no defense against them ?

I mean, getting capacitor status and stuff in cargo seems OK to me, but getting the exact names of all the fitted modules seems like a huge breach in a ship security.

How can you let an enemy know exactly what modules you use and have no defense against it ?
Ship scanners are a powerful tool and so could be viewed as electronic warfare.
Don't you think a counter module should exist, even maybe agression timer when using them against a non-hostile ship ?

This of course would be a huge blow to suicide gankers, but come on, at the moment gankers have it much too easy.

Curious to read what you guys think about this P
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#2 - 2012-02-19 11:35:01 UTC
Actually you have ways of defence against ganks:

-aim for and fit T2 / named or low price DED mods (there are some)

-watch your screen

-use standings and contacts to increase your chances of never get caught

-never afk auto pilot

-use safe bm's at eatch system you frequently pass by, mission or mine, such as instant undock safes (choose the good station and dock at the good station helps too)

Best advice of all: go to null sec and actually play the game instead of being another high sec victim of pawns and risk averse *pirates*?
Reppyk
The Black Shell
#3 - 2012-02-19 11:40:12 UTC
Sam Bowein wrote:
I mean, getting capacitor status and stuff in cargo seems OK to me, but getting the exact names of all the fitted modules seems like a huge breach in a ship security
The ship scanner is very inaccurate. Try it a bit more before complaining, thanks.

I AM SPACE CAPTAIN REPPYK. BEWARE.

Proud co-admin of frugu.net, a French fansite about EVE !

Indalecia
#4 - 2012-02-19 11:50:21 UTC
Tanya Powers wrote:
Best advice of all: go to null sec and actually play the game instead of being another high sec victim of pawns and risk averse *pirates*?


2/10

https://o.smium.org/ — v0.13.5 — A browser-based fitting tool and loadout sharing platform

Sam Bowein
Sense Amid Madness
#5 - 2012-02-19 13:34:49 UTC
Tanya Powers wrote:
Actually you have ways of defence against ganks:

-aim for and fit T2 / named or low price DED mods (there are some)

-watch your screen

-use standings and contacts to increase your chances of never get caught

-never afk auto pilot

-use safe bm's at eatch system you frequently pass by, mission or mine, such as instant undock safes (choose the good station and dock at the good station helps too)

Best advice of all: go to null sec and actually play the game instead of being another high sec victim of pawns and risk averse *pirates*?

Thanks for missing my point Blink
As a null sec pvper, do you want other players to know what strategy you are using on your carrier ?
As a mission runner, do you want other players to know that you have faction modules ?
As an industrialist, do you want other players to know you're transporting 20k m3 of pricey ore ?

If the answer to any of these questions is no, then clearly we need a module to counteract the ship scanners.

After all, it is an intelligence gathering module, and there should be a counter to it. Secure containers, scanner jammers, fake dectections systems, I don't know, but I think at least the option should exist.
Katherine Starlight
Doomheim
#6 - 2012-02-19 13:43:10 UTC
Oh you are so wrong, there are excellent defences against , oh wait no thats ship scanners not cargo scanners.
Cargo scanners can only see through one layer of cargo, if you take a can or 20 and put it in a courier contract (plastic wrap) they can only see the cans.

afaik there is no defence against ship scanners.
Sam Bowein
Sense Amid Madness
#7 - 2012-02-19 14:00:04 UTC
Katherine Starlight wrote:
Oh you are so wrong, there are excellent defences against , oh wait no thats ship scanners not cargo scanners.
Cargo scanners can only see through one layer of cargo, if you take a can or 20 and put it in a courier contract (plastic wrap) they can only see the cans.

afaik there is no defence against ship scanners.

Thanks, I didn't know that Big smile

Now, if plastic wraps can block cargo scanners, why can't I wrap my modules in plastic too ?
Katherine Starlight
Doomheim
#8 - 2012-02-19 14:49:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Katherine Starlight
Sam Bowein wrote:
Katherine Starlight wrote:
Oh you are so wrong, there are excellent defences against , oh wait no thats ship scanners not cargo scanners.
Cargo scanners can only see through one layer of cargo, if you take a can or 20 and put it in a courier contract (plastic wrap) they can only see the cans.

afaik there is no defence against ship scanners.

Thanks, I didn't know that Big smile

Now, if plastic wraps can block cargo scanners, why can't I wrap my modules in plastic too ?

I hope you didnt misunderstand, cargo scanners see through the plastic wrap, but not cans within the plastic wrap, only one layer or protection they can penetrate. So if you have modules in a plastic wrap the scanner can see them, if you put the modules in cans and then in a plastic wrap all they can see is the plastic wrap and cans but not what the cans contain.

So you can safetly move your sexual intercourse collection across the universe. (cause porn is blocked D:)
Liam Mirren
#9 - 2012-02-19 15:18:41 UTC
It's a means to get intel and intel is power. Cool thing is that you can use it too so while it's not useful to have it used against you, you might as well use it yourself.

Excellence is not a skill, it's an attitude.

Nalha Saldana
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2012-02-19 15:21:06 UTC
Sam Bowein wrote:

As a null sec pvper, do you want other players to know what strategy you are using on your carrier ?


The fittings used in null are very generalized and you dont leave resistance holes etc. The info you can get on the field about the enemy ship doesnt really help you much.
If you really wanna know what your enemy is using check some killboards, they will come with same stuff next week.
Jiska Ensa
Estrale Frontiers
#11 - 2012-02-19 15:48:57 UTC
Nalha Saldana wrote:
Sam Bowein wrote:

As a null sec pvper, do you want other players to know what strategy you are using on your carrier ?


The fittings used in null are very generalized and you dont leave resistance holes etc. The info you can get on the field about the enemy ship doesnt really help you much.
If you really wanna know what your enemy is using check some killboards, they will come with same stuff next week.


Furthermore, in null-sec, if someone tries to ship-scan you, you can just blow them up.

So maybe your issue isn't that they can see your fitting, but that you can't retaliate against them for breaching your privacy. Ever think of that?
Thelron
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#12 - 2012-02-19 19:19:12 UTC
Jiska Ensa wrote:
Nalha Saldana wrote:
Sam Bowein wrote:

As a null sec pvper, do you want other players to know what strategy you are using on your carrier ?


The fittings used in null are very generalized and you dont leave resistance holes etc. The info you can get on the field about the enemy ship doesnt really help you much.
If you really wanna know what your enemy is using check some killboards, they will come with same stuff next week.


Furthermore, in null-sec, if someone tries to ship-scan you, you can just blow them up.

So maybe your issue isn't that they can see your fitting, but that you can't retaliate against them for breaching your privacy. Ever think of that?


If scanning were like stealing that could be interesting. Don't know if it's actually *needed,* but it could still be interesting.
Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#13 - 2012-02-19 20:55:18 UTC
Use a ship scanner many times on the same target. You will notice that the listed mods change.

Also, warp faster. Doesn't matter how good the scanner is if you warp.
mxzf
Shovel Bros
#14 - 2012-02-19 21:05:52 UTC
Here's the timeline of what would happen if there was a "scanner jammer" module introduced.

Scanner Jammer introduced
The only people that waste a slot on them are the scared ones flying pimped ships
All ships with scanner jammers fit are now assumed to be loot pinatas
Now even semi-pimped ships with scared pilots are ganked, in the off chance that they had officer gear fit
And now all the ganked pilots are on the forums whining that their scanner jammers didn't provide them complete invulnerability to all ganking

See the problem there?
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#15 - 2012-02-19 21:13:18 UTC
mxzf wrote:
Here's the timeline of what would happen if there was a "scanner jammer" module introduced.

Scanner Jammer introduced
The only people that waste a slot on them are the scared ones flying pimped ships
All ships with scanner jammers fit are now assumed to be loot pinatas
Now even semi-pimped ships with scared pilots are ganked, in the off chance that they had officer gear fit
And now all the ganked pilots are on the forums whining that their scanner jammers didn't provide them complete invulnerability to all ganking

See the problem there?



Not to mention that if you waste a slot on a scanner jammer, then your fit suddenly isn't so pimped any more.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Plus 1
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#16 - 2012-02-19 22:14:40 UTC
Sam Bowein wrote:
Hey guys,

I was wondering about ship scanners and their effect on suicide ganking: don't they give a little too much information with absolutely no defense against them ?

I mean, getting capacitor status and stuff in cargo seems OK to me, but getting the exact names of all the fitted modules seems like a huge breach in a ship security.

How can you let an enemy know exactly what modules you use and have no defense against it ?
Ship scanners are a powerful tool and so could be viewed as electronic warfare.
Don't you think a counter module should exist, even maybe agression timer when using them against a non-hostile ship ?

This of course would be a huge blow to suicide gankers, but come on, at the moment gankers have it much too easy.

Curious to read what you guys think about this P

It's pretty easy to not get ganked, too.
Rei Seiji
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#17 - 2012-02-19 22:17:02 UTC
You feel threatened by ship scanners in HiSec? You don't like how some sneaky scout can tiptoe up behind you, find out that your afk Hulk has nothing but cargo expanders for defence, and reports back to his merry band of jihadists?

Well tough!

If someone actually takes the effort to examine their target, they should get rewarded for their effort.
Supercon
Killer Yankee
#18 - 2012-02-19 23:06:16 UTC
Actually, there is a way around it (and I'm assuming you mine - if you pvp, please ignore).

1. Get an Orca alt or ask a friend who has one. Fleet with him and have him haul a tanked up mining ship in his ship maintenance bay.
2. If you get scanned (or you think you were scanned) while mining, and the suspicious scout warps away, swap out your high-yield miner for the tanked miner.
3. Watch scout come in with his gank-fitted ship and fail to gank you.
4. Profit (if you have a salvage module fitted).

Of course, this won't work if the scout never leaves as you don't want to risk the scout discovering your secret stash.
Sam Bowein
Sense Amid Madness
#19 - 2012-02-20 07:57:55 UTC
mxzf wrote:
Here's the timeline of what would happen if there was a "scanner jammer" module introduced.

Scanner Jammer introduced
The only people that waste a slot on them are the scared ones flying pimped ships
All ships with scanner jammers fit are now assumed to be loot pinatas
Now even semi-pimped ships with scared pilots are ganked, in the off chance that they had officer gear fit
And now all the ganked pilots are on the forums whining that their scanner jammers didn't provide them complete invulnerability to all ganking

See the problem there?

Of course, implementing scanner jammers like that would be plain stupid, thanks for pointing it.

But what if instead of completely jamming the scan, you would only get other results, like a Ballistic Control System I instead of a Caldari Navy BCS or even random like a EM hardener replaced by a Cap Booster ?
This is how counter-intelligence works, by feeding false information to the ennemy.
AstarothPrime
Pecunia Infinita
#20 - 2012-02-20 08:55:25 UTC
I dont get it...

They nerfed suicide ganking badly by removing insurance payout on concord kills...

What more do u want? 100% omni resists?

I.
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