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Caldari PvP: when missiles and when turrets
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Denuo Secus
#1 - 2012-02-18 20:21:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Denuo Secus
Hi all,

until recently I considered both Caldari weapon lines usable in two distinct PvP scenarios: Caldari turret ships only for sniping with rails when instant damage matters - in all other cases missiles.

But with more and more PvP experience I get (small gang + solo) I'm about to reconsider this view. By now I see missiles rather inflexible when fighting target sizes outside of their scope. For instance HML against assault frigs or vice versa AML against cruisers and BCs. Missiles are great for their intended target class but as soon as something smaller or bigger appears on the field (which happens almost every fight in solo or small gang) I have a problem.

This issue of missiles can be adressed by fitting extra modules such as dual web. But this gimps my tank or tackle. Seeing a turret ship can hit small targets just by good navigation and some help from high slot modules like neuts I'm not that sure anymore if the Caldari turret line wouldn't be better suited in my case - especially after the Null ammo boost in combination with Caldari's range bonus on turret ships.

My question: as a Caldari pilot, when do you use missiles and when turrets in PvP?

Thanks!

EDIT: ofc I see the advantages of missiles...no cap consumption, damage type selection and damage projection. But tbh in my daily PvP business these applications seem more and more 'niche'. Previously I treated missiles as flexible just because of these points...but I rarely needed it in most of my fights.

Also: skill is no criterion for me since I have missiles and turrets equally skilled.
Batelle
Federal Navy Academy
#2 - 2012-02-19 05:36:08 UTC
having been on the recieving end of a dual web HML drake, i would say they work just fine against assault frigs

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Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3 - 2012-02-19 12:28:49 UTC
Why do you think that missiles have a problem against larger ships?
Denuo Secus
#4 - 2012-02-19 12:47:38 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
Why do you think that missiles have a problem against larger ships?


Indirectly. I flew an AML Caracal to be able to fight sturdy frigs. This worked. But now a 1600mm Thorax appeared. It took ages to get through its armor. I didn't finish it before their backup appeared.

My point is: target selection with missiles seems narrow. Maybe I did something wrong. I need to try dual web on more missile ships maybe.

I'm just curious how other Caldari pilots choose between missile and turret ships (apart from skill point reasons).
Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#5 - 2012-02-19 14:49:45 UTC
Yeah, if you're in an AML Caracal you won't apply much DPS to other cruisers. Although you still have a range advantage normally. But is this so very different to dropping to, say, med electrons (or even light neutrons!) on a blaster cruiser to fight frigates?

In both cases you drop peak DPS for better application. At least with AMLs, you can load Fury and apply full damage against cruisers - and yet still have far more range than small or low-tier ACs or blasters, and hence attempt to sit outside your opponents effective range.
Liam Mirren
#6 - 2012-02-19 15:30:08 UTC
The problem is that the Caracal (and Cerb for that matter) are based on range, not dps, so in "short range" engagements like 24km you're going to have issues. Partly due to heavy missiles themselves and partly due to ship design/fitting. Would the caracal/cerb be able to fit more tank and do more dps then game balance wise it would have to lose its range ability. Have a look at the navy Caracal to see how it can be done.

The real issue is that CCP is stuck in roles, "caldari is only range", "minmatar must always be OP" and other nonsense balancing ideas like amount of slots and all that which all perpetuate the underwhelming performance. Thing is that this discussion always ends in "but caldari has the drake, tengu and falcon so it's ok for the rest of the ships to suck arseclown", which is ofcourse BS.


On your initial question, it all depends on what you're doing, where and to whom. all weapon systems have their pros and cons but generally, apart from a select few, the Caldari ones aren't used much in big blob warfare. In solo or small gang pvp this can be different, note that solo or small gang pvp is more about the pilot than the ship. So, sadly, as long as CCP keeps Scorch and projectiles overpowered and won't allow Caldari to be good you're just better off to fly something else in larger fleets. In smaller engagements you can make enough difference to make it work. Just not in an AML Caracal.

Excellence is not a skill, it's an attitude.
Denuo Secus
#7 - 2012-02-19 16:40:05 UTC
Don't get me wrong, I don't moan about missiles as a whole. I do think they are great in medium sized fleets with roles for different jobs. Said AML Caracal would be perfect as frig smasher at range here for instance. For bigger targets there are other members in the fleet. The AML Caracal (as well as a HML Caracal) fulfills a more or less narrow role - and it does it very well.

My question is about versatility. About solo/very small scale PvP where versatility matters a lot. I think turrets are more flexible in small scale PvP, but I'm not sure yet. I need more experience here since I used missiles much more.

I just compare Caldari missile boats and Caldari (and maybe Gallente) blaster boats. After the blaster and Null ammo boost I think the Caldari turret line can be more interesting for solo PvP.

I'm asking about the preference of other Caldari pilots. When do you use missiles and when turrets?

Gypsio III wrote:
Yeah, if you're in an AML Caracal you won't apply much DPS to other cruisers. Although you still have a range advantage normally. But is this so very different to dropping to, say, med electrons (or even light neutrons!) on a blaster cruiser to fight frigates?

In both cases you drop peak DPS for better application. At least with AMLs, you can load Fury and apply full damage against cruisers - and yet still have far more range than small or low-tier ACs or blasters, and hence attempt to sit outside your opponents effective range.


My point was that I simply don't need to fit small turrets against smaller stuff.

Worst case: I'm scrambled by an Assault Ship, not able to deal any damage with medium turrets. One small neut or a flight ECM drones could disable this scrambler and I can pull range + lower transversal. Now I should be able to deal peak damage even with medium sized turrets. At least with blasters after their boost.

In this scenario the AML Caracal should do equally good damage against said Assault Ship - even over better range. But medium blasters on the other side are able to deal much more damage against medium sized and well tanked targets at the same time. Imho this can be called flexibility. Caracal's range is very nice and usefull in other scenarios such as medium sized fleets...but in my case more damage against a wider range of targets just seems more usefull.
Super Chair
Project Cerberus
Templis CALSF
#8 - 2012-02-20 05:09:07 UTC
I've been flying caldari for about two years for pvp. Each ship has a strength and a weakness (well...maybe not the drake or tengu). Here's what I use some of my caldari ships for:

Cormorant (150mm Rail Fit): Great flexible boat. I use it to snipe at 80km (spike) or swap to antimatter to orbit at 20 (antimatter) to do more dps and point things or if they try to get under my guns I load javelin for the tracking bonus with a range of about 10km to hopefully kill whatever has gotten close. I generally use the 150mm rail corm to fight frigs (most of the time outnumbered), you can possibly engage cruisers such as the thorax/vexor (orbit at 20, kill drones), but you need to manage your cap and have good enough navigation skills to kite these.

Moa: I blaster fit mine, great for going against other cruisers, you can run down AFs if you have a web, ECM drones are nice if they scram you to get jams and pull away to lower transveral

Naga: Very vulnerable to small sig ships and does not have the tracking/drones like the talos. If you want to solo in a large hybrid boat use the talos. If you absolutely want to use the naga only engage cruisers and up, but do not engage cruisers like the SFI who are generally dual prop low sig armor tankers.

Caracal/Navy Caracal: Frig killers, can kite slow cruisers and some battlecruisers (brutix, ferox) to death. If you fit HML your role is to snipe to soften up your targets before going for point.

Drake: Solo you use two webs/two nanos, pack ecm drones. You can pretty much engage anything BC and down. If they sig tank you web them to apply more dps. Losing tank isn't an issue for the webs, you generally orbit things your size at 20 and still do more dps than them. If a cane or brutix scrams/webs you, double web, pop ecm drones and burn away the best you can.

Tengu: A better drake but no drones. Most people fit them with 100mn AB's, long point, navy web. Works well.


In general, if your using blasters you intend to go after ships your size, or have webs/gangmate with webs to tackle smaller ships. If you're using missiles you're either looking to kill frigs (AML) or kite/snipe things to death (HML).

Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#9 - 2012-02-20 08:51:02 UTC
are you focused on 1 vs 1 or more towards small gangs.

with the second, Target painters solve most of your problems when attacking smaler vessels.
Denuo Secus
#10 - 2012-02-20 09:24:50 UTC
Mike Whiite wrote:
are you focused on 1 vs 1 or more towards small gangs.

with the second, Target painters solve most of your problems when attacking smaler vessels.



Solo and very small gang almost all the time. So my/our fitting slots are limited and I prefer a web since it offers range control in addition. But the superior range a TP offers is interesting. Maybe we should consider this.

Super Chair wrote:
Great info


Thanks a lot! This will help.
Cryissa
Caldari Navy Operations
#11 - 2012-02-20 13:02:57 UTC
As far as I see from playing Eve on off frmo 2003 it's a big game of Rock Paper Scissors. One day your Rock will work because your vs Scissors . Another day oops I was covered in Paper.

Go with your current skills and ships. What you like and dislike flying. Fit as best you can and have fun with it.

Just my advice.
tofucake prime
The Hatchery
RAZOR Alliance
#12 - 2012-02-20 16:20:47 UTC
oh no the podla drake only has the same ehp as a shield cane what ever shall you do????????


Drake > *

The simple answer to your question is the following algorithm:
1. Am I flying a Caldari ship?
No -> End
Yes- > 2

2. Is it a Drake?
Yes -> End
No -> 3

3. Is it a Tengu?
No -> Get a Drake or a Tengu
Yes -> 4

4. Does it have Accelerated Ejection Bay fit?
Yes -> End
No -> Kill yourself