These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Ships & Modules

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
12Next page
 

Newb question, Armor vs Shield tanking.

Author
Kazzlin Freedomsbane
Raistlin Majere's Last Magic Missile
#1 - 2012-02-17 20:36:18 UTC
I've been playing eve long enough now that I can actually plan out a build since I know better. My major question is, I am deciding if I want to be a shield or armor tanker. I love beam and pulse weapons so I'm leaning towards armor for more CAP.

I wanted to hear what longer playing pilots have to say since I know little about the real advantages to armor over shield, or shield over armor.
DarkAegix
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#2 - 2012-02-17 21:44:21 UTC
If you're flying Amarr, then definitely go with armour.
If you're flying Minmatar, then train both.
If you're flying Gallente, train armour and a bit of shields
If you're flying Caldari, train shields.

Shields have the advantage of an XL booster, while armour gets the XL plate.
Shields have the disadvantage of increasing sig radius, while armour ships lose speed.
Shield boosters are inefficient, yet powerful and start at a cycle's beginning. Armour reps are very efficient, yet don't have the pure burst capability of shield boosters.
Shields have lower base resists, but invulnerability fields are more powerful than EANMs.
Shield ships can devote lows to speed and weapon enhancement modules, while armour ships can devote mids to ewar.
Kolya Medz
Kolya Inc.
#3 - 2012-02-17 21:48:37 UTC
If you like lasers, you could always train sansha ships. Shield tanked laser boats ftw!
Mfume Apocal
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2012-02-17 21:52:40 UTC
Kazzlin Freedomsbane wrote:
I wanted to hear what longer playing pilots have to say since I know little about the real advantages to armor over shield, or shield over armor.


First off, train both. Getting an effective T2 shield tank takes something around 14 days of total training time. Armor takes a bit longer, but that's because you want the armor comps at 4.

The paper advantage of a shield tank is more DPS than armor, since it frees up lowslots for damage and projection mods. The paper advantage of armor is superior buffer, leading to more EHP. Obviously this is not true across the board and the exceptions are very numerous.
Stetson Eagle
Paird Technology
#5 - 2012-02-17 21:55:57 UTC
Excellent compilation by darkaegix there. I'd add that it's reasonable to train a bit in both:

shield operation IV
shield management IV
shield upgrades IV
tactical shield manipulation IV
shield rigging I

hull upgrades V
the four armor compensation skills III
mechanic IV
armor rigging I

After this core set is done, you can choose your active tanking and specialize further in it. For shields it's shield compensation, for armor it's repair systems. Training it like this will allow for overall high hitpoints with a relatively fast training.

Denuo Secus
#6 - 2012-02-17 21:56:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Denuo Secus
You said beam and pulse so I assume you're speaking about Amarr.

Amarr are the armor tanking faction. They receive armor resist bonus on some hulls, all logistics have bonus on remote armor rep, they have much more low slots than med slots. So you're better with armor tanking most of the time. Escpecially since amarr offers a really good damage projection which is necessary because armor tanking slows your ship down.

On the other side: with that many low slots + good damage projection + good base cap on most Amarr hulls they are quite good when nano fitted. Which means a slight shield buffer in med slots and alot of damage + tracking/range + speed mods in low slots. Amarr have quite a good base speed but a rather bad agility. This will be adressed by fitting agility mods in the lows. Amarr have plenty of them.

Downside of Amarr nano fittings is they are not really failsafe. Pulse laser have the worst tracking of all short range turrets. They are vulnerable to almost all forms of ewar. On top the shield buffer isn't really huge because of only few med slots. So if all works as planned Amarr nano shield fits are deadly, of something goes wrong you're dead quite fast.
Kazzlin Freedomsbane
Raistlin Majere's Last Magic Missile
#7 - 2012-02-17 22:13:28 UTC
Thanks for the replies, they've been immensely helpful.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#8 - 2012-02-17 22:44:44 UTC
Kazzlin Freedomsbane wrote:
I wanted to hear what longer playing pilots have to say since I know little about the real advantages to armor over shield, or shield over armor.


Shields naturally regenerate with time, armor can pack on more "raw" HP.
Shields free up the low-slots allowing for more weapon-enhancement mods, armor frees up medium-slots allowing for more "utility" and Ewar mods.
Armor is generally "easier" on your ships' capacitor, shields can create incredible active tanks.
Armor slows a ship down, shields make a ship appear "bigger" to sensors and weapons.
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#9 - 2012-02-17 23:42:40 UTC
Just to add some more random facts:

Shields get a module to help them active tank (boost amplifiers) but not a rig
Armor gets rigs to do the same but not a module
Shields get pirate implants to improve boost amount but not capacity
Armor gets pirate implants to improve capacity but not boost amount
Armor gets two options for omni resists, one of which is very easy on fitting. Both are passive and as such cannot be overloaded but also use no cap.
Shield gets a single option for omni resists. It is active and can be overloaded, but requires a not insubstantial amount of cap to keep active.
Armor gets a +% raw amount module; shields do not
Damage controls do more for armor resists than shield resists
Shields have a limited number of low slot modules that help tank; armor has no mid slot modules that help tank
Amarr T2 resists are omni on armor and silly on shields (further boosts to highest native shield resists)
Minmatar T2 resists are omni on shields and silly on armor (further boosts to highest native armor resists)

Anyhow. They're very different. Training both is indeed worthwhile. Many ships can go either way, especially in PvE.
Katherine Starlight
Doomheim
#10 - 2012-02-18 00:44:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Katherine Starlight
Zhilia Mann wrote:

Shields have a limited number of low slot modules that help tank; armor has no mid slot modules that help tank


However cap rechargers with no drawbacks apart from taking up a slot fit in the mids so you can use those unused slots for cap stability. However armortanks cripple DPS as the lowslots are used for the tank. As shield has to use mids for the tank they cannot use any capacitor mod without drawback, they have only rigs.

One thing to be noted about shields tho is passive tanking, you may look at a passive PVE fit and see "oh only 300 recharge rate? that's not good enough!". Well don't be fooled, its coefficient recharge curve, at around 33% shield the shield hits its peak recharge rate which multiplies it with 2.5

So your tank recharges 750 shield per second instead. However at around 20% it drops like a rock, yes your tank become weaker after the peak. So if you passive tank and warp out at 50% cause omg it isn't recharging! Do know at around 50% the coefficient curve starts, that's where the passive tank starts to shine If you go below 20% however, well, time to get out.

Active armor tanking can PVE but cripples DPS
Active shield tanking can PVE and deals maximum DPS, however in most cases not capstable, needs micromanagement
Passive armor tanking Cannot PVE
Passive shield tanking do work quite good for PVE but you cannot really use damage related rigs.

On another note smaller shield boosters have shorter cycles, armor repair modules all have long cycles in comparison. As an example Two small DED shield boosters can equal a DED large armor repairer in effectiveness with some shield boost amplifier, and they use virtually no capacitor in comparison. Now that varies from ship to ship how effective using smaller reps are. Armor can never make use of smaller reps, only more fancy ones with more repaired per cycle.
Ines Tegator
Serious Business Inc. Ltd. LLC. etc.
#11 - 2012-02-18 00:48:58 UTC
As a counterpoint to the DPS loss argument, ships designed to armor tank usually have a ton of low slots. I rarely have trouble fitting 2 heat sinks and strong tank as well, depending on ship of course. Not stacking 4 of them at once of course, but with stacking penalties, 2 is pretty close to optimal anyway.
Katherine Starlight
Doomheim
#12 - 2012-02-18 01:30:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Katherine Starlight
Now i have the luxury of alts, i have a vulture boosting my tengus, so when my main joins in on the fun i want her to shield tank as-well but Ah she flys a vindicator, hmm, what to do. Something that armor cannot do even with bonuses of CMDships and pirate implants. She has a Crystal set and this Vindicator fitted which is the first time i share it with anyone, cause people will cry if they see it. And with the luxury of tengus taking care of frigs. With the two 5% damage related hardwirings, i present to you probably EVEs most derp vindicator in existence. Defying laws of tanking thanks to OP shields, this is why shield tanking is way better than armor.

The 1341 DPS Vindicator with 999 DPS omnitank (12 minutes), more than enough to finish missions. (not running active shielding II ganglink, with it 1424 DPS omni tank for 7 minutes and 5 seconds)

[Vindicator, derp]
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Republic Fleet Tracking Enhancer
Republic Fleet Tracking Enhancer
Republic Fleet Tracking Enhancer

Pith X-Type Shield Boost Amplifier
Pithum A-Type Medium Shield Booster
Pithum A-Type Invulnerability Field
Pithum A-Type Invulnerability Field
Federation Navy Tracking Computer, Tracking Speed

425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L (from LP store cheap)
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L

Large Capacitor Control Circuit II
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I

Garde II x5
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#13 - 2012-02-18 01:40:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Steve Ronuken
Armour does a buffer tank very well. Energized Adaptive Nano Membranes are omni-resist, with no cap cost. /And/ they're affected by the armour compensation skills, boosting them further. Faction versions are pretty cheap too. 50 mil each for the imp navy version. level 4 skills makes it a uniform 27% bonus.

The equivilent invulnerability field isn't affected by the skills (except when inactive) and costs 500 mil. Sure, it gives a little better resist. but it's pricy as all hell in comparison


Edit - Oops. Said passive, where I meant buffer, with resist mods you don't need to activate.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
#14 - 2012-02-18 01:52:15 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Armour does a passive tank very well. Energized Adaptive Nano Membranes are omni-resist, with no cap cost. /And/ they're affected by the armour compensation skills, boosting them further. Faction versions are pretty cheap too. 50 mil each for the imp navy version. level 4 skills makes it a uniform 27% bonus.


That would be great, except that armor doesn't regenerate. It buffer tanks, fine, yes, everyone agrees on that. But there is no such thing as a passive armor tank because there's no way to get armor back without cap use.
Lyrrashae
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#15 - 2012-02-18 02:07:07 UTC
Katherine Starlight wrote:
Now i have the luxury of alts, i have a vulture boosting my tengus, so when my main joins in on the fun i want her to shield tank as-well but Ah she flys a vindicator, hmm, what to do. Something that armor cannot do even with bonuses of CMDships and pirate implants. She has a Crystal set and this Vindicator fitted which is the first time i share it with anyone, cause people will cry if they see it. And with the luxury of tengus taking care of frigs. With the two 5% damage related hardwirings, i present to you probably EVEs most derp vindicator in existence. Defying laws of tanking thanks to OP shields, this is why shield tanking is way better than armor.

The 1341 DPS Vindicator with 999 DPS omnitank (12 minutes), more than enough to finish missions.

[Vindicator, derp]
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Republic Fleet Tracking Enhancer
Republic Fleet Tracking Enhancer
Republic Fleet Tracking Enhancer

Pith X-Type Shield Boost Amplifier
Pithum A-Type Medium Shield Booster
Pithum A-Type Invulnerability Field
Pithum A-Type Invulnerability Field
Federation Navy Tracking Computer, Tracking Speed

425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L (from LP store cheap)
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L

Large Capacitor Control Circuit II
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I

Garde II x5


Not saying it isn't viable, obviously it is, but...

Holy way-too-conspicuous, Batman, can you say: "suicide-gank bait?" Ugh

(I hope you've got insta-undocks at every system you base in, and out-of-grid gate "warp-offs" in the systems you get sent into consistently, by the way...Because losing something like that really would make little Lyrra cry...Blink)

Ni.

Katherine Starlight
Doomheim
#16 - 2012-02-18 03:15:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Katherine Starlight
Katherine Starlight wrote:

Not saying it isn't viable, obviously it is, but...

Holy way-too-conspicuous, Batman, can you say: "suicide-gank bait?" Ugh

(I hope you've got insta-undocks at every system you base in, and out-of-grid gate "warp-offs" in the systems you get sent into consistently, by the way...Because losing something like that really would make little Lyrra cry...Blink)

If i hadnt lost interest in EVE as of lately maybe, and all they would see are my passive tanked tengus, they can try to gank them all they want but they would need more isk in shooters than if all the tengus mods dropped :).

Just pointing out that when it comes to PVE, even armor tank battleships with armor tank bonuses work better shield tanked, with the proper support for it obviously, but still. Armor does not have that support, it lacks so much when it comes to PVE. Forgot to mention i do not run the active shielding ganglink tho, 1434 DPS omni tank with it on, but only 7 minutes and 5 seconds with it. Only use it for short missions with tons of incoming DPS such as whats it called, mercs, stop, theif, stop the thief? Also for snipe mishs instead of tracking comp a sensor booster.

Shields > armor
Darthewok
Perkone
Caldari State
#17 - 2012-02-18 08:19:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Darthewok
Armor reppers are way more convenient than shield boosters if you don't like having to dock up often. Its annoying on shield tanks when you get armor damage. You have to dock to refit a repper to repair armor or pay exorbitant armor repair costs at station.

CAVEAT RICHARDUS VOLVERE - YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHg5SJYRHA0

Nalha Saldana
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#18 - 2012-02-18 14:34:28 UTC
Darthewok wrote:
Armor reppers are way more convenient than shield boosters if you don't like having to dock up often. Its annoying on shield tanks when you get armor damage. You have to dock to refit a repper to repair armor or pay exorbitant armor repair costs at station.


If you take armor damage as a shield tanker you are doing it wrong.
Vicky Somers
Rusty Anchor
#19 - 2012-02-18 15:17:16 UTC
You should aim at eventually training both as nearly all ships can go both ways. It depends on how creative you can get with your fits and on what you need. Gank? Buffer? E-war? Swiss knife? Speed?
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#20 - 2012-02-19 00:15:41 UTC
Zhilia Mann wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Armour does a passive tank very well. Energized Adaptive Nano Membranes are omni-resist, with no cap cost. /And/ they're affected by the armour compensation skills, boosting them further. Faction versions are pretty cheap too. 50 mil each for the imp navy version. level 4 skills makes it a uniform 27% bonus.


That would be great, except that armor doesn't regenerate. It buffer tanks, fine, yes, everyone agrees on that. But there is no such thing as a passive armor tank because there's no way to get armor back without cap use.



Absolutely right. I was meaning the mods available for resists, without cap usage. My bad, on terminology.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter

12Next page