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So you want T3 Frigates. Please explain.
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Kestrix
The Whispering
#61 - 2012-02-17 22:28:19 UTC
No... T3 frigates are no good to me, what I really want are T3 battle cruisers!
Dark Drifter
Sons of Seyllin
Pirate Lords of War
#62 - 2012-02-17 22:48:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Dark Drifter
why is everyone assuming that a T3 Frig would be able to do everything all the T2 Frigs to at the same time.

T3 cruiser cant do this:

-i personaly would never take my T3 boosting setup in to a mission, it would melt.
however my damnation is perfect for a DPS sink while still providing much needed boosts.

-i would not take my T3 neut legion against a curse or a pilgrim.
again i would die. i may last longer but i wont have the DPS to kill them

T3 ships will do well in any 2 given roles..

the protious dose not make the all gallente T2 hulls obsolite. it just compliments them
the tengu is not a majure will/loss factor in PVP, the rook/falcon is
the loki cant decide what kind of tank it is, the vaga speed tanks, broadsword shield tanks, munin is buffer armor
the legion is only good for WH PVE and fleet pvp, other amarr hulls are good for solo and fleet use


finaly a T3 is only a WTFPOWNMOBILE if it is faction/dead-space/officer fitted . otherwise ist just a T2 tank with extended EW capabilitys and average DPS for its hull size
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#63 - 2012-02-17 22:56:01 UTC
Dark Drifter wrote:
why is everyone assuming that a T3 Frig would be able to do everything all the T2 Frigs to at the same time.


Because with a minimal amount of faction fittings, a Loki can offer all 3 skirmish boosts (T2), be cloaky, be probey, be hard to probe out (have ECCM), be interdiction-nullified, still have 35k EHP, and even have a salvager and target painter on top of that.

I EFTed that up last night and passed a brick.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Shukuzen Kiraa
F4G Wild Weasel
#64 - 2012-02-18 00:17:10 UTC
Sunviking wrote:
I see a greater need for Tech3 Mining/Industrial ships than Frigates.

There are few places where Mining is a safe profession now.



This ^^
HELIC0N ONE
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#65 - 2012-02-18 00:44:33 UTC
Varesk wrote:
They need to finish the T3 cruisers first. Still waiting on the 5th subsystem.


5th subsystems and a good rebalancing session with the existing ones.
jedi'master yoda
Doomheim
#66 - 2012-02-18 02:40:09 UTC
Tech 3 Battle Hauler
Mocam
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#67 - 2012-02-18 05:17:53 UTC
Roll Sizzle Beef wrote:
Would rather have Strategic Destroyers.
Larger sig than frigates. Not modifiable into interceptor speeds with ABs.
As would happen if they kept bonuses in parallel of strategic cruiser subsystems.
3 subsystems. At minimum 1x skill speed would keep it under the time requirements of the cruisers.
Defensive & Electronics
Propulsion & Engineering
Offensive
Some might think 3 subs would lead to fewer options. Yet the vast majority only use t3 cruiser in three main rolls as it is. Explorer, dps (counting pvp and pve), booster.
Smaller t3 would definitely not boost. nor will they be big enough to help in a hole larger than c1 or c2.
Apart from scanning purely to scout, you are looking at a pvp ship, despite someone rigging it up to run lvl3s or some such nonsense.
Unique to this class are several options. I could see this t3 built to:

  • Find cloaks or narrow down location to (xx)km. Smart bomb hunt for Red October action.
  • Better cyno: can drop a cyno generator beacon (+ anchor time, so not a hot drop option) and leave scene so you don't always have to use some suicide alt. Would overall cost more than the suicide option yet less hassle.
  • Bubble the unbubbleable. a t3 counter to other t3s.
  • Web bubble to compliment dictors or to help group warp faster
  • Mine (the explosive variety) ship.
  • Fleet point-defense vs bomb and missile attacks. (fixed defender missile system, perhaps quick auto-target bombs but not auto-destroy like missiles; as the hard human part is to actually target the buggers within the 10 seconds.)


Apart from run and gun, you would have multiple support rolls not filled by any other ship. New rolls, more chances of a prolonged fight and not just a loldps roll.


  • "hunt cloakies" has been beaten on for a long time. The problem with the idea is anything that can be used to find them in deep-space, can and will also find them at a gate camp entering a system. The loss of that functionality would simply feed those cloaked ships to campers in ever increasing numbers, eliminating the value of that module. That is why many who look at this back a variant of the "fuel bay" style solution more regularly than "hunting them".

  • "better cyno" - so the bonus to the recon cruisers should be junk? That ship already exists. Smaller versions aren't needed.

  • "Bubble immunity" - cruisers on down already get by camps with fair frequency. So now the pilots can be even sloppier to get around? Bigger needs help with these, not smaller.

  • "Web bubble" - so all nullsec gate camps will now have 2 different bubbles up so they can be even lazier about their camping? No thanks. Bubbles are very lazy-mode already. Adding a web version to the mix? Hell, even a single capital with your "web bubble deployer" could lock and pop smaller ships with such a mix.

  • "Mines". Those were removed from the game. You can still find the BPC's and BPO's up for sale at times out of Jita and the like. iirc - it had something to do with AFK PvP -- something that a fair portion of the game frowns upon -- though it does have its advocates that would LOVE to log in and find 5-10 killmails for doing absolutely nothing after deploying. After all, those killboards are the "real" EVE so numbers there mean far more than actual fighting, right?

  • "fleet point defense vs bombs and missiles" -- forget it. The suggestions like this tend to be "afk alt" parked there - like fleet boosters of today. I've seen a rookie ship survive being bombed. Only an idiot who hits their MWD will get popped by a bomb or 2 and missiles? ... Even without that "afk", fielding a small batch of these would eliminate caldari from PvP. You can setup smartbomb ships.

That "firewall" tends to require keeping them in line between the source and target but it works. It is a rather costly option just for anti-missile protection and requires rather large ships to pull it off but elimination of several dozen ships as viable in PvP should be rather limited.

I may not like the lack of skills for using missiles but complete nullification of their functions would be even more ******** than the current ECM systems.

IMO - not smaller than cruiser - larger: Battleship T3's.

The reasons are simple:

  • Smaller ships can already go places that larger ones can't. The OP nature of T3's we see is already an issue and squeezing in T3's in already packed areas will obsolete other ships.
  • T3 frigates... They will step on something. So will T3 destroyers as we've already seen with the T3 cruisers.
  • There is a healthy gap between sub capitals and capitals - T3 battleships have a lot of "slack" that they could fill up in that gap without stepping on other ships.
  • Also a T3 battleship can qualify with modules for non-combat purposes such as mining and hauling, giving the industrialists something to think about as well. The hull is large enough to support such a concept - vs cruisers or frigates.

So more T3's? Introduce them at a point where there is room to play with the design, without stepping on other ships and that is at the Battleship level where there is a lot of gap between it and the next step up -- capitals.

At this point, they could be "over powered" and still not approach what a capital can do and avoidance of what the T2's specialize in would leave the T2's as valuable and viable -- there are only 2 T2's in that class.
Roll Sizzle Beef
Space Mutiny
#68 - 2012-02-18 08:13:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Roll Sizzle Beef
Mocam wrote:

  • "hunt cloakies" has been beaten on for a long time. The problem with the idea is anything that can be used to find them in deep-space, can and will also find them at a gate camp entering a system. The loss of that functionality would simply feed those cloaked ships to campers in ever increasing numbers, eliminating the value of that module. That is why many who look at this back a variant of the "fuel bay" style solution more regularly than "hunting them".

  • "better cyno" - so the bonus to the recon cruisers should be junk? That ship already exists. Smaller versions aren't needed.

  • "Bubble immunity" - cruisers on down already get by camps with fair frequency. So now the pilots can be even sloppier to get around? Bigger needs help with these, not smaller.

  • "Web bubble" - so all nullsec gate camps will now have 2 different bubbles up so they can be even lazier about their camping? No thanks. Bubbles are very lazy-mode already. Adding a web version to the mix? Hell, even a single capital with your "web bubble deployer" could lock and pop smaller ships with such a mix.

  • "Mines". Those were removed from the game. You can still find the BPC's and BPO's up for sale at times out of Jita and the like. iirc - it had something to do with AFK PvP -- something that a fair portion of the game frowns upon -- though it does have its advocates that would LOVE to log in and find 5-10 killmails for doing absolutely nothing after deploying. After all, those killboards are the "real" EVE so numbers there mean far more than actual fighting, right?

  • "fleet point defense vs bombs and missiles" -- forget it. The suggestions like this tend to be "afk alt" parked there - like fleet boosters of today. I've seen a rookie ship survive being bombed. Only an idiot who hits their MWD will get popped by a bomb or 2 and missiles? ... Even without that "afk", fielding a small batch of these would eliminate caldari from PvP. You can setup smartbomb ships.
ce of what the T2's specialize in would leave the T2's as valuable and viable -- there are only 2 T2's in that class.

Hunt cloakies within (xx)km is not proposing a mechanic that can instantly find a covert jumping through a gate. Any scanning method currently built into the game such as probes would give ample time for Mr covert to jump away from a gate before said scan comes back with the following data: "hey there was a cloaked ship within 25km derp" merely a method to keep cloaks from parking in the same place too long. Its no more tedious in evasion than combat probes, just more vague, and still have target immunity when they at least find your general location on a grid. For someone against lazy playing such as campers, figured you'd be all about those lazy afk cloakers.

Covert Cyno was also not what I was proposing. A normal cyno generator, everyone can jump to, anchored so the t3 can leave. The generator is of course poppable. And since its an anchor. it cant be bum rushed in and hot dropped.

I'm not sure if you got this idea straight. The idea was to let destroyer t3 actually super bubble nullified t3. Seems fair enough a counter to a t3 is another t3.

Fine web bubbles may be too lazy.

I thought mines were originally cancelled due to mass amount of objects in space. same reason drone numbers were cut down I believe in the same time period. As with anything that didn't work the first time, it just needs some refining.

"I've seen a rookie ship survive being bombed" Well obviously it was a poor drop. Bombs can be a ideal threat and no disco party will maneuver into position in time to stop them even if you had them. -A- has been seeing good use of bombs lately.
And as for voiding missile fleets, that's the same reason I said it's for a defender system overhaul anyway. If they actually ever want to fix it so its viable to use to begin with, they would also have to make it kinda fair with any multitude of mechanics not even in the game yet. Much like the whole idea of a smaller t3.
Rei Seiji
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#69 - 2012-02-18 08:52:53 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Dark Drifter wrote:
why is everyone assuming that a T3 Frig would be able to do everything all the T2 Frigs to at the same time.


Because with a minimal amount of faction fittings, a Loki can offer all 3 skirmish boosts (T2), be cloaky, be probey, be hard to probe out (have ECCM), be interdiction-nullified, still have 35k EHP, and even have a salvager and target painter on top of that.

I EFTed that up last night and passed a brick.


Before or after you looked at how much it would cost you?
Eternus8lux8lucis
Guardians of the Gate
RAZOR Alliance
#70 - 2012-02-18 09:57:58 UTC
Reilly Duvolle wrote:
Well, if you look at the cruiser class, when T3s were introduced there already existed a lot of very specialized cruisers. The T3s haven't replaced any of these. A Rapier still have longer webrange than a webbing Loki.

The T3s brings two things to the table:

One, they bring configuration flexibility of course, the ability to swap out subsystems and reconfigure the ships for a diffrent role. What limits this flexibility is rigs - so it is a limited form of flexibility when it boils down to practical use.

Two - and much more importantly - T3s can be configured to be good at several things simultaneously. A webbing loki will have a shorter webrange than a Rapier sure, but it can tank and dish out damage while doing so on a scale never possible with a Rapier.

This is where the T3s shine. Thus, T3 frigates will not replace existing specialized T2 frigs, but they will take different T2 frigate capabilities, scale them down a bit sacrificing some speciality, but combine them into a more awesome package.

T3 cruisers also pick up the warfare link capabilities from commandships, so this could indicate that a T3 frigate sub could be a interdictor capability picked up from the destroyer class.

I agree here.

Id like to see modular or modules designed specifically to mimic but not replace existing T2 hulls, require T2 ships in the production of EACH T3. So a racial CovOps, Inty, Ewar frig to build either the ship itself or the sub system its designed upon in addition to the standard T3 parts and reverse engineering with a hull thats dropped only by sanshas in incursions. Such a production chain would require ALL ares of Eve to be forced to trade or play together so to speak and not make only one area of space profit from the new system exclusively.

So youd be basically able to merge two of the frigate classes into a single ship with slightly reduced bonuses to each or make a nicely slightly more powerful, more expensive version of a T2 ship.

I would greatly reduce firepower in favor of much greater tank simply so that its not a WTFPWNMOBILE and let thoae be the pirate faction frigates instead.


My only addition would be that the racial skill be done in such a way as to be limitless in terms of time. And that a random function be present over time that might give a very low % chance of improvement to the skill and the ship, most of it going to the ship and only a portion to the players skill (80/20 split perhaps), in a large number of categories. These increases would stay with the ship and become a marketable portion of the ship, creating truly unique ships that have required player training time to build. This process could take weeks, months or years. Any increase might be in a category thats useless to the ship or very functional and useful.

The ship would be selected much like insurance and any time then banked onto that ship much like RPs do currently. The time bank could be changed at any time or would be stopped immediately when another skill is trained. Upon ship destruction all is destroyed but what is accrued to the player which can be then used on any other ship of its class within the same race. Ships can be traded, bought or sold. So if you might have gotten bonuses to speed lets say and you see a ship on market that also has ship bonuses to speed this would make it a very highly prized ship for you. But to another person not so much. So value now would be taken away from just sum market value of components to personal player intrinsic value based on playing style, ship role usage and bonuses accrued over time to both ship and player.

And since you cannot specifically know what skill bonuses that player might have accrued or know what ship skills that particular ship has accrued you would never truly know what exactly you are facing. So only upon destruction will you know what ship skills it had, but not player skills. It then would make a ship class that is completely out of the cookie cutter mold of standardized fits and would make a TRUE challenge for players as you just dont know how it will be in combat until your engaged with it.

Have you heard anything I've said?

You said it's all circling the drain, the whole universe. Right?

That's right.

Had to end sometime.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#71 - 2012-02-18 21:29:48 UTC
Rei Seiji wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Dark Drifter wrote:
why is everyone assuming that a T3 Frig would be able to do everything all the T2 Frigs to at the same time.


Because with a minimal amount of faction fittings, a Loki can offer all 3 skirmish boosts (T2), be cloaky, be probey, be hard to probe out (have ECCM), be interdiction-nullified, still have 35k EHP, and even have a salvager and target painter on top of that.

I EFTed that up last night and passed a brick.


Before or after you looked at how much it would cost you?


About 1 bil, actually. Not as much as most uberpimped T3s.

I did not pass a brick about the price, in other words.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)