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Drones

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COMM4NDER
Legendary Umbrellas
#81 - 2011-09-29 10:32:01 UTC
This happens for me when doing incursions or missions. Assist drones on someone or just attack a sansha ship in incursion.
50% of the time all drones go to attack but then 2 goes to idle and starts to orbit my ship.

Fixed window mode, 1 client windows 7.

Devs, go play incursion in live server for a few minutes to hours and you will se how many bugs you shal find. It is almost impressive that many bugs are still present.

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Aelana Anais
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#82 - 2011-09-29 13:05:12 UTC
Another idea for helping track this down... isn't this exactly the type of situation that a structured (or mass) test on singularity might help? I.E. get a bunch of folks together with devs watching and debugging reproducing the error?
COMM4NDER
Legendary Umbrellas
#83 - 2011-09-29 17:27:12 UTC
Aelana Anais wrote:
Another idea for helping track this down... isn't this exactly the type of situation that a structured (or mass) test on singularity might help? I.E. get a bunch of folks together with devs watching and debugging reproducing the error?


Going on a incursion streak today with the logserver on hopefully something will show other the mass of unneeded information.

[url=https://github.com/CommanderAlchemy/.bin/blob/master/eve] EVE - Online Launcher [Linux] [/url] Installs, launches character prefixes (both SISI & Tranquility). Simplescreenrecorder shm inject
Grey Stormshadow
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#84 - 2011-09-29 21:51:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Grey Stormshadow
Ok here is commented video about drone bug and pretty good explanation how drones cycle time is related to the bug. I have additional videos where 60 second rule with mining drones could be confirmed not to be random coincidence.

Combat drones have 4 second cycle. This is why the bug seems to come and go and is harder to reproduce. However this doesn't remove the fact that the bug exists in those also and is the source of this entire thread here.

Now fix it :)

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Renan Ruivo
Forcas armadas
Brave Collective
#85 - 2011-09-30 01:05:14 UTC
I also tend to belive it has something to do with their cycle time.

Do drones have something resembling a "Ok, target is dead, switch targets" routine that runs when they're on agressive?

It might happen that when they are on agressive and i see that their target exploded and i immediatly issue an order for them to attack someone else, that the "Player command: attack target X" happens before the "Ok, target is dead, switch targets" routine kicks in which might explain why they tend to switch targets even before being given a direct order to attack someone else.

Also might explain why this happens with drones that are assiting somebody else but are also on agressive. Their assisted ship takes offensive action against another ship before the "target dead, switch" routine kicks in.

Lag might be causing them to run that routine a long time after the original target has been killed.


Just wild internet speculation though, since i don't even know if this is how they are programmed.

The world is a community of idiots doing a series of things until it explodes and we all die.
Grey Stormshadow
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#86 - 2011-09-30 11:27:22 UTC
to simplify - following code is missing from the system:

drone: I didn't cause it but my target just died/depleted/vanished -> reset my cycle and enter ready for new target mode.

This is missing and it is what causes the bug.

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Decaneos
Casalt Corp
CAStabouts
#87 - 2011-10-02 09:33:08 UTC
Another thing with drones ive noticed is sometimes they will for no reason what so ever go off to attack a group of rats thats just sitting there , not attacking me or the drones and once they get it in there head to attack it the only way to stop them heading that way each time they kill a rat that is aggressing you is to call your drones back into you bay.

this is noticable when you have flying drones, i suspect there is also a simmiler issure with sentry drones that might be the reason why random packs agress the drones only.
Myfanwy Heimdal
Heimdal Freight and Manufacture Inc
#88 - 2011-10-02 19:02:13 UTC
I've just lost a drone which went rogue. I tried calling it back but it refused to do anything other than stand Idle.

This happened at the same time, when the distances on my Overview were horrbly wrong and were puting up random values.

The overview in this case said that the enemy npc were chasing me (I was trying to kite them in a drake) at about 60kms and then they suddenly rubber-banded to 200km+. At the same time I was unable to control the drone even though commands were being sent to it.

Pam:  I wonder what my name means in Welsh?Nessa: Why?
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#89 - 2011-10-03 10:07:24 UTC
Myfanwy Heimdal wrote:
I've just lost a drone which went rogue. I tried calling it back but it refused to do anything other than stand Idle.

This happened at the same time, when the distances on my Overview were horrbly wrong and were puting up random values.

The overview in this case said that the enemy npc were chasing me (I was trying to kite them in a drake) at about 60kms and then they suddenly rubber-banded to 200km+. At the same time I was unable to control the drone even though commands were being sent to it.

This was either terrible lag, or you kited the NPCs too far(they will reset if you kite them to far). If the NPCs reset while your drones are on them, the drones can get... random.. because they think they should be attacking that target still, but its both too far away, and invulnerable(because its warping back).

I'd call that behavior buggy, but at least you can predict it if you know how far you can get away with kiting the rats(usually around 200km Shocked)

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Spc One
The Chodak
Void Alliance
#90 - 2011-10-03 10:27:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Spc One
I've seen it in a couple of missions.

Level 5 Rattlesnake
Hammerhead II

I engage target with active drones and then drones are starting to mwd to to the target and start shooting it. What happens next is that hammerheads disengage the target and become passive, i have to engage the same target again for the drones to start shooting it again.

It is as someone is ECM bursting the whole mission but it only happens to drones, my ship doesn't loose lock.
Grey Stormshadow
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#91 - 2011-10-06 06:27:51 UTC
*bump for justice*

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Vaako Horizon
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#92 - 2011-10-07 21:05:02 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Just spent an hour poking at this and totally failing to get a reproduction for drones switching targets. Tried with Hammerheads, Gardes and Ogres, tried issuing target orders just before, just after, and a second after the target died, and even tried hacking the Ogres to have a10s RoF to see if that'd help. In all cases they're working as advertised (focus fire and aggressive).

Obviously this problem is still happening in the wild, but it doesn't seem to be reproducing on our internal test servers which makes it somewhat difficult to track down. I'll try and give it another poke later in the week and see if I can find anything more, but right now I don't have a whole lot to go on :(


Drone boat FTW!

The above boat is what I am using and I am getting the idle and "no focus fire" issues on a permanent basis.
Having the drones set to aggresive+focus fire at all times.

First attack is always correct but if I directly after assign "attack" to another target ( which was not on the drones secondary target list ) the issues accur.
All drones gets assinged correctly.. 1 of them fires and the rest either goes idle or moves to what was their secondary target ( the one THEY had chozen )

I am not sure how/why you cant see it so I added my boat so you, in one way or another, can get the same loadout and try it on that, might be boat related?
Maybe try and get on live to try it?

These issues have been here for a VERY LONG time now and you devs havent even acknowledged that it is an issue until this forum thread.
Dont get me wrong here but you boys and girls have made a great meny mistakes for several months now and while you appear to be going in the right direction this drone issue is the one *BEEP* issue that should have gotten fixed a day or so after incarna. ( and dont come and say we havent told you about the issues because there are alot of ppl that have been posting about it since incarna )

PLEASE FIX IT!! :D :D :D :D
Rasheki
Almost Miners
#93 - 2011-10-08 16:51:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Rasheki
Message to CCP Greyscale

I use an AC Fit Myrm w/ HH II drones, chain runnin L3 for faction/corp standing increases.

Drone settings as follows: Focus Fire = True; Agressive = True

The lack of focus fire is tied to issue of the drone choosing a target other than the instructed target. Setup for reproduction is this:

w/ multiple hostiles on the field at the same or mixed ranges
1. Launch Drones send after target (mix HH II and Warrior II)
2. Let drones choose next target
3. After several targets instruct drones to engage a specified target **problem begins here**
3.1 - due to flight times and lock/aquire cycle times (happens more often if you mix drone types (HH II and warrior II works well for this bug), the warriors will often aquire and go after a target on their own, the HH with longer lock/aquire cycle will go after the target you've given them.
Notes on 3.1: The lack of focus fire appears to be a result of the issue of target acquisition. Because the warriors are acquiring their targets faster they tend to go after the target they choose where as the HH go after the target i designate. THis causes a split in focus fire. The focus fire issue is a result of the conflicting target designations. After they are split, they tend to take several target changes to re-converge on a single target, as the targets tend to die at different intervals.
Vaako Horizon
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#94 - 2011-10-08 18:37:58 UTC
While I havent seen or tried it with mining drones there are a few who say they get these issues also. which further complicates things :P
Shuckstar
Blue Dreams Plus
#95 - 2011-10-09 04:05:59 UTC
CCP Greyscale wrote:
Just spent an hour poking at this and totally failing to get a reproduction for drones switching targets. Tried with Hammerheads, Gardes and Ogres, tried issuing target orders just before, just after, and a second after the target died, and even tried hacking the Ogres to have a10s RoF to see if that'd help. In all cases they're working as advertised (focus fire and aggressive).

Obviously this problem is still happening in the wild, but it doesn't seem to be reproducing on our internal test servers which makes it somewhat difficult to track down. I'll try and give it another poke later in the week and see if I can find anything more, but right now I don't have a whole lot to go on :(


Saying working as advertised and there still a problem in the same post is bit odd. Also try in on Tranq or watch some of the fraps these other kind pilots have linked showing you the exact problems.







CCP Greyscale wrote:"OK, I've read every post up to page 200, and we're getting to a point in this thread where there's not a lot of new concerns or suggestions being brought up. There will be future threads (and future blogs) as we tune details, but for now I want to thank you for all of your constructive input, and wish you a good weekend :)"

Grey Stormshadow
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#96 - 2011-10-09 12:51:54 UTC
Rasheki wrote:
Message to CCP Greyscale

I use an AC Fit Myrm w/ HH II drones, chain runnin L3 for faction/corp standing increases.

Drone settings as follows: Focus Fire = True; Agressive = True

The lack of focus fire is tied to issue of the drone choosing a target other than the instructed target. Setup for reproduction is this:

w/ multiple hostiles on the field at the same or mixed ranges
1. Launch Drones send after target (mix HH II and Warrior II)
2. Let drones choose next target
3. After several targets instruct drones to engage a specified target **problem begins here**
3.1 - due to flight times and lock/aquire cycle times (happens more often if you mix drone types (HH II and warrior II works well for this bug), the warriors will often aquire and go after a target on their own, the HH with longer lock/aquire cycle will go after the target you've given them.
Notes on 3.1: The lack of focus fire appears to be a result of the issue of target acquisition. Because the warriors are acquiring their targets faster they tend to go after the target they choose where as the HH go after the target i designate. THis causes a split in focus fire. The focus fire issue is a result of the conflicting target designations. After they are split, they tend to take several target changes to re-converge on a single target, as the targets tend to die at different intervals.


Different drone types are good example because they usually arrive to target at bit different time and tend to have different firing cycle timing than the drones already there.

I hate to repeat myself but the bug is triggered when:
1. X amount of drones are shooting same target
2. Some of the drones kill the target in end of their cycle firing cycle, but not all drones are involved in this.
3. Those drones which were not involved in "kill shot" got still their final firing cycle running and are locked to "dead" target.
3.1 These "special final cycle"-drones are assigned or acquire new target while the cycle still continues.
3.2 When their cycle finishes, they finally realize that their target has been dead/gone/killed for a while already and they reset.
3.3 After reset they either acquire new random target or have to be assigned to new target, depending are they active or passive.

As explained above currently drones stay locked to their "original" target for their entire firing/mining cycle, no matter are they assigned to to new target or does their "original" target even actually exist any more. Drones perform this test only in end of their cycle and this has to be fixed.

To fix the bug flawlessly following checks has to be added to the code:
when target in the grid dies/vanishes/depletes every drone needs to check "was it my target?", unlock and disengage if it was.
when drone is acquiring new target and focus fire is on, check have all other drones unlocked and disengaged before taking action.
when drone is manually assigned to new target, immediately unlock and disengage from the old target if one exists.

If above causes too heavy server load, this method fixes the bug from most parts but is not totally flawless:
when pilots own drone kills/depletes target, all his other drones need to check "was it my target?", unlock and disengage if it was.
when drone is acquiring new target and focus fire is on, check have all other drones unlocked and disengaged before taking action.
when drone is manually assigned to new target, immediately unlock and disengage from the old target if one exists.

Video which I posted to this same thread while ago proves the point.

Now could someone please(!) import this to game code so we could be done with this deal once and for good?

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Vaako Horizon
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#97 - 2011-10-10 06:46:37 UTC
Just noticed that they are not focus fireing when they are allowed to choose targets by their own either
Daniel Souquel
#98 - 2011-10-11 10:18:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Daniel Souquel
This is my first post on the forums and it's already about a bug we all know. Not a good sign...

As mentioned before, my drones have a kinda random behavior. Sometimes they attack the target they ordered to attack, some times they just do their own thing and attack at random. I tried all possible settings for the drone behavior, (aggressive/passive, focusing/not focusing), here are my results:


Passive + Focusing/Not Focusing:

Drones are in full-******-mode and just do things on order and idle mid fight at random, even if their target is still alive. There for i have to constantly spam the attack-order, otherwise i have a idle drone doing nothing but to take up space.

I was not able to reproduce this behavior on demand. Sometimes they just work as intended and sometimes not. It's just random and distracting.


Aggressive + Focusing:

Drones primarily attacking targets that are attacking me, most of the times they focus one target, but every 2nd to 3rd target they split up and attack random targets, even when you give them a order to attack a specific target.

When you order them to attack a specific target 8 out 10 times they do what they should and at the other 2 times, they just do what they want. Splitting up, idle or sometimes disappear completely. But that's a very rare case and they reappear after a couple of seconds.


Aggressive + Not Focusing:

Same behavior as Aggressive + Focusing, but with more split-ups and random stuff. Sometimes they search for a new target, sometimes not. But in most cases they work as intended and attack random targets. Given orders sometimes have no effect at all and sometimes they just idle after a order was given.


Mining-drones in general:

The mining drones have a huge delay between arriving at the given target and start of the mining circle, in most cases they start after 60+ seconds and sometimes not even after 5-7 minutes (that's the time my cargo is full).

Sometimes they start to idle after their first circle or they don't deliver the mined ore to my ship or they deliver the ore but don't return the the asteroid they where assigned to.



Steps used for testing (just combat):

- arriving in the gird
- locking the targets in range
- start attacking until aggro is on me
- deploying drones
- order them to attack a target
- if on aggressive, just let them do their thing and start to salvage or if they are in passive mode, order them to attack the next target and salvage :D
- repeat...


A possible solution:

On focus fire, treat drones like one single unit and just scale up the dmg ratios etc. and just draw the individual models on client. That will lead to less server impact (i think) and focus fire don't need extra checks or other things to guarantee working focus fire.

Grouping could be handled by type or custom by the player. This could be accomplished with the existing group feature in the drone interface.

Just one problem: What to do in pvp or if the "drone-group" has aggro? One way could be to scale down the dmg ratios after health lost, but this is a disadvantage for the drone player, because he has no individual drones to micro and can't save a single, damaged, drone from being destroyed. And the enemy-player has an huge advantage, because he just needs to lock on one bigger target, instead of many little ones.

A balanced solution would be a combination of both solutions: Treading the drones as one single group on the targeting side, but as single, individual units, for the enemy. The attack circle could be synchronized between the drones of the same type or between drones with the same attack circle (?).


Ok, that's all i have. I hope that will help to fix this random mess. My "solution" is under guarantee not the best, but that's how i would fix the problem.


PS: my english is not the best, but i hope everybody understands what i mean ;)
Gibbo3771
AQUILA INC
Verge of Collapse
#99 - 2011-10-11 16:11:08 UTC
I ejected 5 drones in my cyclone yesterday, they were damaged from previous fight and soon as I launched them they became "incapacitated"....I never died tho but still...very annoying.
Svaste
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#100 - 2011-10-12 00:39:23 UTC
"But enough talk from me. We all know that much quoted phrase, “It’s not what you say, it’s what you do,” that will make the difference here. From now on, CCP will focus on doing what we say and saying what we do. That is the path to restoring trust and moving forward." -Hilmar

Show us that these are not just words.

1. Explain why CCP chose to break drones. What functionality did we gain for what we lost?
2. Examine the drone-breaking code added with Incarna and revert it back to the less broken code before Incarna.
3. At the very least, take the time to read this thread, the threads from the old forums and the bug reports and don't ask us to re-type information already given.
4. Post something. The lack of communication on this issue is unacceptable.