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Community HATES thought of FtP but their actions push CCP that way

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Lexmana
#241 - 2012-02-20 21:34:20 UTC
Cipher Jones wrote:
Transactions under 20 bucks are microtransactions, unless you have more clout than Visa I consider their definition valid.


I guess that means you didn't think about it??
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#242 - 2012-02-20 21:35:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Mara Rinn
Tippia wrote:
So what non-NeX MT is there in EVE?


How is PLEX not MT?

The definition of micro transaction or micropayment is a transaction which involves a small amount of money. PLEX buys you an intermediate currency representation (ISK in EVE, Turbine Points in LOTRO), which you then use to buy stuff in-game.

Just because the PLEX-output currency is the same as the in-game grind currency doesn't mean that it can't be MT. Just because some transactions are much larger than $10 worth of ISK doesn't mean no transactions are MT.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Lexmana
#243 - 2012-02-20 21:37:51 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Tippia wrote:
So what non-NeX MT is there in EVE?


How is PLEX not MT?


If PLEX is MT subs is MT ... everything is MT and it has no meaning. Think.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#244 - 2012-02-20 21:42:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Mara Rinn
Lexmana wrote:
If PLEX is MT subs is MT ... everything is MT and it has no meaning. Think.


You're not making sense. When I'm buying PLEX to sell for ISK, I am converting my dollars to in game currency. I'm not converting my dollars to someone else's subscription. Someone else converts their work hours to ISK, then converts that ISK to a subscription. The two are very different transactions involving the same item.

ISK that are "earned" through work hours are not micro transactions because they don't represent real money.

ISK that are "bought" through PLEX do represent real money, placing a real world value on the transactions which that ISK is used to fund.

Would you argue that all ISK represents NPC bounties, and thus everyone who conducts a transaction using ISK is a bother?

Does paying a subscription give me a certain amount of ISK? No it doesn't, so how on Earth would subscriptions count as MT? There is no direct exchange between currencies.

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Lexmana
#245 - 2012-02-20 21:44:43 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Lexmana wrote:
If PLEX is MT subs is MT ... everything is MT and it has no meaning. Think.


You're not making sense. When I'm buying PLEX to sell for ISK, I am converting my dollars to in game currency. I'm not converting my dollars to someone else's subscription. Someone else converts their work hours to ISK, then converts that ISK to a subscription. The two are very different transactions involving the same item.

ISK that are "earned" through work hours are not micro transactions because they don't represent real money.

ISK that are "bought" through PLEX do represent real money, placing a real world value on the transactions which that ISK is used to fund.

Would you argue that all ISK represents NPC bounties, and thus everyone who conducts a transaction using ISK is a bother?

Does paying a subscription give me a certain amount of ISK? No it doesn't, so how on Earth would subscriptions count as MT? There is no direct exchange between currencies.


Read your post again. It does not make any sense.
1/10
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#246 - 2012-02-20 21:45:46 UTC
Lexmana wrote:
Cipher Jones wrote:
Transactions under 20 bucks are microtransactions, unless you have more clout than Visa I consider their definition valid.


I guess that means you didn't think about it??


It means what it ******* means. Understand it or don't. Draw any conclusion you like.


internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#247 - 2012-02-20 21:46:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Cipher Jones wrote:
Transactions under 20 bucks are microtransactions, unless you have more clout than Visa I consider their definition valid.
So what non-NeX MT is there in EVE?

Mara Rinn wrote:
How is PLEX not MT?
Because you're not buying any in-game services for your money — you're buying subscription time (actually, not even that — you're buying a 30-day subcription option). PLEX is not MT for the same reason your game (or newspaper, or ISP service, or TV license or… [etc]) subscription is not MT, even though a lot of them cost a small amount of money.

For computer games, in particular, MT tends to denote paying real money for virtual goods, so PLEX — paying real money for a real-world service (subscription time) — is disqualified right out the gate. Outside of gaming, the term “micropayment” is becoming increasingly common to distinguish the two.

Just because you are allowed to trade this real-world service in-game doesn't make the service virtual.
Lexmana
#248 - 2012-02-20 21:48:28 UTC
Cipher Jones wrote:
Lexmana wrote:
Cipher Jones wrote:
Transactions under 20 bucks are microtransactions, unless you have more clout than Visa I consider their definition valid.


I guess that means you didn't think about it??


It means what it ******* means. Understand it or don't. Draw any conclusion you like.

Your post does not offer any other conclusion than: you didn't think!
1/10
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#249 - 2012-02-20 22:05:19 UTC
Tippia wrote:
PLEX is not MT for the same reason your game (or newspaper, or ISP service, or TV license or… [etc]) subscription is not MT, even though a lot of them cost a small amount of money.


So is buying a few thousand Turbine Points a micro transaction?

Tippia wrote:
For computer games, in particular, MT tends to denote paying real money for virtual goods, so PLEX — paying real money for a real-world service (subscription time) — is disqualified right out the gate.


Straight out of the gate, PLEX are not a subscription. As you have just said yourself, they are a subscription option. The person buying PLEX is buying the option to extend their game time for 30 days. If they trade that option, they have exchanged a token for value. Trading that token for ISK means they have exchanged one currency for another. Now the transactions the seller makes with the ISK they've gained from selling that token of real world value are by definition micro transactions.

This is how most micro transaction systems work: you make one real world transaction for a suitable sum (say, $30), which buys you some tokens: those tokens might be Turbine Points, Agenda Points or ISK. Then you use those tokens to make small purchases which would otherwise be prohibitively expensive. The exception to the rule is Diablo III where Blizzard acts as a transaction clearing house for many small real currency transactions.

Just because the transactions don't' use a separate currency to the rest of the in game economy doesn't make them magically not micro transactions. When you buy a Manticore with ISK that you ground through ratting, you've exchanged work hours for an in game item. When you buy a Manticore with ISK that you bought with a PLEX, you've exchanged real dollars for an in game item. The PLEX has headed off into the system because you sold that 30-day option to someone else as part of the process of buying that Manticore for €1.70.

Tippia wrote:
Just because you are allowed to trade this real-world service in-game doesn't make the service virtual.


It's not a service until the option is exercised. You just used the "PLEX is an option" argument, now you're arguing that it's a service. Make up your mind P

People do not sell PLEX for ISK because they're wishing to fund someone else's play time. People sell PLEX for ISK because they want to buy shiny things in the game.

Aurum is also a currency that can be used for real-to-virtual transactions. It uses the same exchange token: a PLEX. PLEX is two options in one: you have the option to redeem for play time, or to redeem for Aurum. The presence of Aurum doesn't negate the fact that ISK can be used for micro transactions. In fact, most Aurum transactions are not micro transactions, by definition. Aurum is a macro transaction currency. Would anyone argue that $70 is a micro transaction? I seem to recall a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth over that issue that also involved shooting a monument in Jita.

The cognitive dissonance in this community was made quite real through virtual riots and mass unsubscriptions. People wanted Aurum to be a micro transaction currency, but it wasn't. It was a PLEX sink to exchange for very expensive luxury goods.

The real micro transaction currency is ISK: one round of antimatter charge s is worth around 20 ISK. At current exchange rates of about 480M ISK for a PLEX, a small supply of Antimatter Charge S is about 20k ISK, costing about €0.001. If that's not a micro transaction, what is?

Day 0 Advice for New Players
Corina Jarr
en Welle Shipping Inc.
#250 - 2012-02-20 22:15:40 UTC
In my view, MTs are not convirting RL cash into in game cash (this is PLEX).

It is convirting RL cash to in game items. Directly. No in game money required.


My view only though.
Lexmana
#251 - 2012-02-20 22:17:12 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
This is how most micro transaction systems work: you make one real world transaction for a suitable sum (say, $30), which buys you some tokens: those tokens might be Turbine Points, Agenda Points or ISK. Then you use those tokens to make small purchases which would otherwise be prohibitively expensive.

you know, on a very superficial level you have a point. Both PLEX and MT will give a player means to buy virtual items for €€.

But the similarity ends there. With MT, whatever you need is spawned out of thin air in your hanger (bypassing any industry, crafting, inventing, hauling, protecting, mining, trading usually needed to produce such item in your hangar) and will obsolete the majority of EVE players economic activity from the sandbox. MT is not compatible with a player driven industry or market. It is compatible with NPC buy and sell orders.

Is that the kind of EVE you are advocating, an EVE where all the industry, mining and markets are just NPCs?
Ai Shun
#252 - 2012-02-20 22:18:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Ai Shun
I had a look through on-line definitions of microtransactions. They are exceptionally vague. Take this as one example:

Quote:
An electronic commerce transaction of very low value. It may refer to charging just a few cents or even a fraction of a cent for a transaction such as an information lookup. It may also refer to aggregating several small-value purchases and charging a credit card at the end of the day or some other period for the total amount


I could argue that my monthly subscription is a microtransaction. It is of very low value for the benefit it gives me. Does anyone have a commonly accepted definition that actually works as a good baseline for this type of discussion?

I had always treated "micro-transactions" as the payments involved in a Free-2-play model as the equivalent of a subscription; where those items were either time based to achieve in-game (And with a long time to achievement). But the definition just seems much broader than that.

Edit:

Lexmana wrote:
With MT, whatever you need is spawned out of thin air in your hanger (bypassing any industry, crafting, inventing, hauling, protecting, mining, trading usually needed to produce such item in your hangar)


That addendum makes sense. It seems useful to add that a Microtransaction is independent of the game economy. Which a PLEX is not.
Edwin Atavuli
Edwin Atavuli's Tax Umbrella
#253 - 2012-02-20 22:30:12 UTC
I've been pondering this for a few minutes. PLEX can provide ISK; which may give a player access to ships and modules the player has not yet earned through experience. These are still things available in-game; so I don't know if that is termed as pay to win. Yes, you can pay real world money to purchase something that is better than what you would normally have access to; but everyone has access to the same items through the game interface


i did not post the above dunno who did...

but like i said sums it up

EVE = Pay to win allready....

i understand the plex system perfectly! and i see how it works to the good of all for the most part... does plex = RMT?

no i wont say that it's not with this i can agree.....

but do not for one second try to tell me that corporations , as well as players use isk to fund their wallets???


Plex will and mark my words always give an advantage as far as finances go to those who "CHOOSE" to buy it......

wich is unfair to players who do not buy plex...... yea some say BS because you cant buy anything with a plex that ya cant buy allready with isk ...... thats nuts even if you dont have skills to pilot ships/ fittings/modules...... if i did decide to buy a plex i could buy sooo much crap that i want and need in game right now..... but as stated earlier i refuse to buy it.... i make isk by earning it legit...... not by just forking my cc number to ccp for plex.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#254 - 2012-02-20 22:38:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Mara Rinn wrote:
Straight out of the gate, PLEX are not a subscription. As you have just said yourself, they are a subscription option. The person buying PLEX is buying the option to extend their game time for 30 days. If they trade that option, they have exchanged a token for value. Trading that token for ISK means they have exchanged one currency for another. Now the transactions the seller makes with the ISK they've gained from selling that token of real world value are by definition micro transactions.
…except that you're still paying real-world money for a real-world service. You cannot (legally) pay real-world money for virtual goods. ISK is not the real microtransaction currency, as you call it, for the simple reason that you can't buy ISK for real money except through illicit means.

Quote:
This is how most micro transaction systems work: you make one real world transaction for a suitable sum (say, $30), which buys you some tokens: those tokens might be Turbine Points, Agenda Points or ISK.
…and since you can't buy ISK for real money, it doesn't qualify. You're still buying a real-world service for your real-world money. The trade you're doing with other players is not part of the transaction you do with CCP.

Quote:
Just because the transactions don't' use a separate currency to the rest of the in game economy doesn't make them magically not micro transactions.
No, what makes them not microtransactions is that you're not buying any virtual goods. When you buy a Maticore with ISK that you bought with a PLEX, you've exchanged real dollars for a real service. This completes your (non-MT) transaction with CCP. You are then allowed to resell this service to other people, which is a transaction that does not (in fact, must not) involve real money. If this second transaction, you've exchanged a real-world service for an in-game item. It is also not MT.

Quote:
It's not a service until the option is exercised. You just used the "PLEX is an option" argument, now you're arguing that it's a service. Make up your mind P
The option is the service, and it's a real-world service all the way through. People's intention with performing these transaction doesn't change what the transactions are — an none of them qualify as MT. One does not involve virtual goods; the other does not involve real money.

Quote:
Aurum is also a currency that can be used for real-to-virtual transactions. It uses the same exchange token: a PLEX. PLEX is two options in one: you have the option to redeem for play time, or to redeem for Aurum. The presence of Aurum doesn't negate the fact that ISK can be used for micro transactions.
…except that ISK cannot be used for MT. AUR is a very odd case, I agree, but that's mainly because you're allowed to get a hold of PLEX that someone else has paid for — either way, it's still a matter of virtual goods (the NeX stuff, that is, which is all you can use AUR for anyway) existing solely because someone burned real money for it. AUR is your exchange token, and they only serve one purpose: to spawn virtual goods out of nowhere. You're quite right in saying that the prices alone should disqualify AUR from the MT label, but that has more to do with CCP being incompetent than about what the actual service is. Either way, they can't be created in any other way except by expenditure of cash (yours or someone else's). Of course, this is where the really fun semantic argument starts since, technically, nothing in the game would exist unless we spent subscription time creating it…

…but subscription time and the things that are generated through “natural” game play is often categorised as non-MT by default as far as I have seen. So that's another thing that removes non-NeX PLEX use from the MT category: nothing is being generated. The PLEX is actually almost completely economy-neutral (aside from a bit of ISK loss due to taxes).

As for the riots and unsubscriptions, they had pretty much nothing do with AUR — that was just one of the straw-man fallacies CCP tried to throw out there to disparage people's concerns (which only furthered the concerns people had). The real problem was that they had a complete breakdown of communication and a complete failure in expectations management on every level. I'll simply refer to my old write-up on the topic.
Lexmana
#255 - 2012-02-20 22:55:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Lexmana
Ai Shun wrote:
I It seems useful to add that a Microtransaction is independent of the game economy. Which a PLEX is not.

As far as definitions go I think you nailed it when calling MT independent of game economy but it does inject into the game economy.

Edit: is that really independent?
Edit2: I guess it means that one side (€€€) is independent but the other is not (ISK).
Edwin Atavuli
Edwin Atavuli's Tax Umbrella
#256 - 2012-02-20 23:21:46 UTC
Ok lol im starting to sound a bit trollish myself so this will be my last comment on the situation.....

we can all just agree to disagree, and let bygones be bygones....

but my stand and it's official

people who buy plex have an unfair advantage over those who choose not to buy plex?

and earn it strictly in game?

yes they do sorry but this is how i feel....... Cry
Ai Shun
#257 - 2012-02-21 00:36:17 UTC
Lexmana wrote:
Ai Shun wrote:
I It seems useful to add that a Microtransaction is independent of the game economy. Which a PLEX is not.

As far as definitions go I think you nailed it when calling MT independent of game economy but it does inject into the game economy.

Edit: is that really independent?
Edit2: I guess it means that one side (€€€) is independent but the other is not (ISK).


Apologies, I was not clear enough.

Independent in that a PLEX does not generate anything within the economy that does not exist. Therefore; it is dependant on the in-game economy while a traditional micro-transaction creates items into the game economy that does not exist.

Basically following on what you said; where a micro-transaction creates something out of thin-air. A PLEX does not.

Edwin Atavuli wrote:
people who buy plex have an unfair advantage over those who choose not to buy plex


And, as has been demonstrated, those who run Incursions have an advantage over those that do not. They are tapping one of the largest ISK faucets known to man and, as the numbers crunched by Tippia has shown, are earning on average per day what the average mission runner earns in a month.

What is your stance on that?
Edwin Atavuli
Edwin Atavuli's Tax Umbrella
#258 - 2012-02-21 00:57:15 UTC
My Stance is that incursions are part of the game any and all can do them......

insane amounts of money from doing so yea thats why people do them i suppose.

but no need to buy plex to run incursions.......

oh wait! lol.......
Ai Shun
#259 - 2012-02-21 01:29:34 UTC
Edwin Atavuli wrote:
My Stance is that incursions are part of the game any and all can do them......


So what is stopping you from buying a PLEX? They are part of the game and everyone can purchase one.

I guess I don't see your stance as being reasonable. PLEX is a great enabler for people who enjoy some aspects of EVE, but do not have either the available time or the desire to grind the ISK to fund, say, their space-combat habit. I can't see that as being bad; because you have the same power as I do in-game. You can make the same choices. And if you are more time rich than me you can easily earn the ISK.

/shrug. Your opposition just seems silly, Edwin. But, I will admit I am having difficulty understanding what you write. It seems more like a collection of incoherent ramblings than an actual thought process.
Lt Angus
Goat Herders
#260 - 2012-02-21 02:04:47 UTC
Even I came back, things must be on the up, maybe they will think twice before they take away my ship spinning next time Evil