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Citadel Bomber, Covert Logistic and much more

Author
Rommel Rottweil
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1 - 2012-02-13 05:44:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Rommel Rottweil
I think that there is room in eve for at least 2-3 more Destroyers and some T2 versions of them as well.
There is only one Destroyer Tier and one T2 version avalable. Why not add more colour to eve and add a few more.

Here are my suggestions. There might be better out there, if you have any please post them or link.

EDIT to link new ideas posted later in this thread:
Covert Logistic ship: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=982755#post982755
Covert Citadel Bomber: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=927483#post927483
Drone Specialist : https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=808268#post808268
Anti-Cloaking Destroyer (Sub hunter): https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=919583#post919583




This is the OP:

Im just putting this out there. Hope you like it Big smile

>Tier2; Destroyer, (Bonus type, Slots; Low/Med/High)
Role Bonus
Bonus: 25% bonus to ROF

Amarr: Laser & Armor bonus. 5/2/7
Caldari: Missile & Shield bonus. 2/5/7
Gallente: Hybrid & Drone bonus. 4/3/7
Minmatar: Projectile & Speed bonus. 3/4/7

Concept for the Tier2 is that they are slightly heavyer/tougher destroyers than Tier1 (-1 high and +1 med/low slots). Thay could be a smaller version of the Tier 3 or tier 4 Cruisers.


>Tier2; Destroyer /
Tech2; Heavy Stealth Bomber
Fits 5x Torp and 2x Bomb Launcers
Amarr: Same as Stealth Bomber. 6/2/7
Caldari: Same as Stealth Bomber. 2/6/7
Gallente: Same as Stealth Bomber. 5/3/7
Minmatar: Same as Stealth Bomber. 3/5/7

Concept here is to add a another level to the advancement of the origenal frig sized Stealth Bomber, hopefully without taking over the role compleatly. Maybe having them use Improved cloak only, not able to use the CovOps Cloak.


>Tier3; Destroyer.
Role Bonus: Lower Cruiser Weapon CPU & GRID.
Fits Cruiser size weapons Pirate

Concept is somthing like the Tier3 BC.


>Tier4; Destroyer Drone EW Specialists.
(Bandwith 50, Dronebay 100m3)
Role Bonus:+20% Drone Speed. +20% Drone racial Damadge. (Penalty: Few Missile/Turret Hardpoints)

Amarr: +10% Tracking Disrupting & Neutralizing Drones effect.
Caldari: +10% level to Drone ECM strength.
Gallente: +5% Warp Disruptor range. +10% to Sensor Dampening Drones.
Minmatar: +5% level to Stasis Webifyer range. +10% Target Painting Drones.

Concept is to have a small specialist Drone boat that can use the EW drones (that are almost never used anyway) or use the racial type of drones. EW bonuses primarily for Drones!Big smile

Thank you
mxzf
Shovel Bros
#2 - 2012-02-13 06:12:35 UTC
Why? What role is there that needs to be filled?
Rommel Rottweil
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2012-02-13 13:29:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Rommel Rottweil
Is there a role for Assault frigs and Electronic attack ships? They are just smaller/Cheaper versions of the HAC and Recon arent they? Is there a role for the BC and BS tier 2-3, arent they just heavyer versions of the Tier1 ship?

I think that there is defenatly a role for more smaller ships. Eve is just a sandbox and what could be wrong with adding more toys in there and let players play around with it. Many ships are probably used diffrently that 'intended'. Many ships are not used that much, but still there is a role for them. Even if they were added just for flavor it would still be nice. Im not saying that they should be ingame tomorrow but adding them one by one in new patches would be cool.
Variation is great and for new and old players it would be cool to have a few more Destroyers, if there is no role for them today Im shure that players will carve out a path for them and they will be used!

Just look at the Ship lineup.

T1 Frig -24
T2 Frig -28
Faction Frig -17
T1 Destroyer -4
T2 Destroyer -4
Faction Destroyer -0
T1 Cruiser -16
T2 Cruiser -24
Faction Cruiser -17
T1 BC -12
T2 BC -8
Faction BC -0
T1 BS -12
T2 BS -8
Faction BS -15

Looking at this list you still think one class in under-represented ingame?

Finally, we dont haveto agrea eather, this is eve isnt it, we can discuss this with Lazors Pirate
Velicitia
XS Tech
#4 - 2012-02-13 14:14:56 UTC
Rommel Rottweil wrote:

Just look at the Ship lineup.

T1 Frig -24
T2 Frig -28
Faction Frig -17
T1 Destroyer -1
T2 Destroyer -1
Faction Destroyer -0
T1 Cruiser -16
T2 Cruiser -24
Faction Cruiser -17
T1 BC -12
T2 BC -8
Faction BC -0
T1 BS -12
T2 BS -8
Faction BS -15


Great job on counting all the racial ships for all classes other than dessies Blink

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia

Rommel Rottweil
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#5 - 2012-02-13 14:54:13 UTC
LOL my bad, fixed Big smile
mxzf
Shovel Bros
#6 - 2012-02-13 17:39:07 UTC
The problem is that you're still not listing any actual need for them in the game. Your reasoning pretty much boils down to "Why not? I want them" without actually suggesting any role where they're needed to fill.

And destroyers are, intentionally, a stepping stone from frig to cruiser, they're not designed to be their own full set of ships. So comparing their numbers to anything other than BCs is misleading. And BCs might have some more T1 hulls, but they still only have one class of T2 hulls (with two variations for each race). See the similarity there?

Destroyers:
1 tier of T1 hulls
1 group of T2 hulls

BCs:
3 tiers of T1 hulls
1 group of T2 hulls

And, as I said in the beginning: there's simply no role missing in the game right now for your suggested hulls to fill.
Montevius Williams
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#7 - 2012-02-13 19:22:23 UTC
Destroyers alreay have a role. Beat the **** out of frigates.

"The American Government indoctrination system known as public education has been relentlessly churning out socialists for over 20 years". - TravisWB

Agustice Arterius
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#8 - 2012-02-13 20:21:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Agustice Arterius
mxzf wrote:
The problem is that you're still not listing any actual need for them in the game. Your reasoning pretty much boils down to "Why not? I want them" without actually suggesting any role where they're needed to fill.
.


I don't really recall the direneed or role for strat cruisers or teir 3 BCs to fill

we got along fine the last few years without them, but they certainly found one when they were introduced

Destroy is a dead class, a destroyers purpose in naval warfare was to protect larger vessels from smaller vessels, this is their purpose in EVE as well, except a Cruiser can do fairly well at that job too, and doesn't pop when a stray ricochete hits them. I personally would love a new destroyer class.

but what do I know
Rommel Rottweil
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#9 - 2012-02-13 20:50:57 UTC
Well in a way I could argue that no ship in the game now had a role before the ship was actually intoduced.
The game could have just one ship of each type, frig, dessy, cruiser etc. But that would be less fun right?

I was suggesting maybe using the Destroyer platform to add a 'hevyer' bomber ship with 2-3 launchers and maybe not using the covops cloak like just about all other cloaky ships use. The stealth bomber dindnt always warp cloaked, another suggestion is for a ship that takes advantage of EW drones, never seen them used in pvp myself tbh. Why not have a platform that would have bonuses to using them, bonuses might actually make them useful!

A lot of the ships in game now overlap each other in role so always just saying there isnt a role for more destroyers is kinda pointless isnt it? Is there a role for the Tier1 Destroyer ingame now? If there is why not allow players to choose between at least 2-3 diffrent hulls, having them slightly diffrent.
Comparing them to the BC is acurate, but I was making a point as well comparing to the multitute of ships in other classes. BC and Destroyers are ships that most pilots can and do ignore. Why not make them more interesting? Why did CCP make the new Tier3 BC? Why not a Destroyer with Cruiser guns?

Done right a tier2 and tier3 Destroyers could be a interesting ships to roam or for new players to mission in. There are many brilliant players in eve that would probably find a fitting or setup that could make this a good ship. With signature maybe x2 of a frig and only 50% of a Cruiser combined with speed can still give it some survivability. If surviavability is really an issue then maybe just trweak resists a bit tbh, Im not saying that a Dessy should win against a cruiser (though some players are really bad).

Now looking at Faction warfare, could more Destroyer hulls be interesting there? Many people dont have the isk to loose a lot of ships and I think some of those people might like more of them. Dessy hull is what, app 25% of a Cruiser hull and 3x the price of a frig hull.

Gather up a few friends in destroyers and you can even kill a freighter in highsec Pirate
Velicitia
XS Tech
#10 - 2012-02-14 12:18:26 UTC
Agustice Arterius wrote:
mxzf wrote:
The problem is that you're still not listing any actual need for them in the game. Your reasoning pretty much boils down to "Why not? I want them" without actually suggesting any role where they're needed to fill.
.


I don't really recall the direneed or role for strat cruisers or teir 3 BCs to fill



T3 cruisers -- "Maybe this'll shut them up about FiS long enough for us to get WiS working".

Tier3 BCs -- "o **** guys, we need something to make up for sucking at WiS, $1000 jeans, and the monocles"

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia

Rommel Rottweil
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#11 - 2012-02-14 14:00:04 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
Agustice Arterius wrote:
mxzf wrote:
The problem is that you're still not listing any actual need for them in the game. Your reasoning pretty much boils down to "Why not? I want them" without actually suggesting any role where they're needed to fill.
.


I don't really recall the direneed or role for strat cruisers or teir 3 BCs to fill



T3 cruisers -- "Maybe this'll shut them up about FiS long enough for us to get WiS working".

Tier3 BCs -- "o **** guys, we need something to make up for sucking at WiS, $1000 jeans, and the monocles"



Maybe this is the Reason for them to be in game (in the world of tinfoil hats) but its not a Role.
Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#12 - 2012-02-14 14:48:23 UTC
there is more need for support ships than another traditional weapons platform.

Something that gives fleet commanders new options. more to new forms of ewar and logistices them more platforms with the same weapons, at the same time it would be nice to see the non combat ships getting some love. a real exploiration ship would be nice instead all the T3 cruisers that are used for it.

as for destroyers I'd love to see a goal getter platform, though it screams lag, it would be great to see 8 defender missiles, or an other way to reduse incomming fire towards ships, a platform that can boost warp strenght for other ships, a ship that can only jam webs things like that and see what happens, how will tactics change anything that moves away from the EFT DPS TPS.
Bubanni
Corus Aerospace
#13 - 2012-02-14 14:54:48 UTC
mxzf wrote:
Why? What role is there that needs to be filled?


that question is often thrown around, I would say that I see no reason for not having more variations of ships that don't have to fill out a "NEW ROLE!"

like the new BC which didn't really add a new role, but just had more fire power and less tank. some ship variations within the same class of size would be nice, even of same hull... (example: a thorax with less ehp, but more speed)

Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934

Meditril
Minmatar Secret Service
Ushra'Khan
#14 - 2012-02-14 14:57:25 UTC
Before adding new destroyers I propose that first electronic frigates are fixed. Then I still don't see the role of new destroyers... so maybe add Tech 3 Frigates next (their role would be flexibility on a small hull).
Mary Annabelle
Moonlit Bonsai
#15 - 2012-02-14 18:02:52 UTC
Meditril wrote:
Before adding new destroyers I propose that first electronic frigates are fixed. Then I still don't see the role of new destroyers... so maybe add Tech 3 Frigates next (their role would be flexibility on a small hull).


I am all for more destroyer options, but I am not sure how the electronic frigs could be fixed...

Maybe if the frigs were to use a single big and heavy gun, they could swarm bigger ships, giving them back a combat role.
Xolve
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#16 - 2012-02-14 20:03:43 UTC
Mary Annabelle wrote:
Meditril wrote:
Before adding new destroyers I propose that first electronic frigates are fixed. Then I still don't see the role of new destroyers... so maybe add Tech 3 Frigates next (their role would be flexibility on a small hull).


I am all for more destroyer options, but I am not sure how the electronic frigs could be fixed...

Maybe if the frigs were to use a single big and heavy gun, they could swarm bigger ships, giving them back a combat role.



Fixing EW Frigs would just be easy, they just need a simple targeting range boost and maybe another midslot.
2manno Asp
Death By Design
#17 - 2012-02-14 20:30:47 UTC  |  Edited by: 2manno Asp
Rommel Rottweil wrote:
Is there a role for Assault frigs and Electronic attack ships? They are just smaller/Cheaper versions of the HAC and Recon arent they? Is there a role for the BC and BS tier 2-3, arent they just heavyer versions of the Tier1 ship?

I think that there is defenatly a role for more smaller ships. Eve is just a sandbox and what could be wrong with adding more toys in there and let players play around with it.


i would've supported this, but for the implications. the main issue is that adding new ships to eve primarily adds to the complexity of balancing them, an area ccp is frankly struggling with, but seems to have at least realized given their recent attempt at hybrid turret/ammo tweaking (only part of the problem imo, the ship hulls are the other). four races and lord knows how many ships is a monumental balancing task, one that has a ways to go imo.

you go adding a new level of destroyers and what have you done relative to the other ships in the game? what have you just done to t1 frigs? t2 frigs? t1 cruisers?

t1 frigs are already all but useless. t1 cruisers are tricky at best. afaik, there is really only ONE place in eve in which ships are given a specific forum to be used against ships of relatively equal strength/skill, and that's FW, which is ironically (or appropriately given apparent ineptitude in this dept.) an area that ccp has all but ignored.

really, given their track record, ccp needs to focus on balancing the current lineup while giving them more dynamic and/or useful roles within eve long before they throw more ships at the wall for the sake of having a t2 ship where there isn't one, or more representation of a particular ship.

tldr: ships for the sake of eve, not ships for the sake of ships.
Xolve
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#18 - 2012-02-14 20:34:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Xolve
Rommel Rottweil wrote:
Destoryers with 2 Bomb Launchers


I am however, against this idea, bombs are extremely powerful even in small numbers against tight knit groups of ships; the Stealth Bombers have recently received alot of loving in the regards that CovOps ships don't decloak each other any more (until someone disconnects) and bombs under TiDi actually explode at 30km and don't bug out and fly all the way across the system.

Using multiple launchers would allow a really small amount of players to absolutely wreak havoc on large fleets.

Examples:

27 Man Bomber Wing vs 131 Man Armor Fleet

14 Bombers vs Tornado Gang + Support

The AHAC gang in this battle report killed a whopping 4 ships that jumped in just after the bombing run.




Edit- I had to edit this post 7 times to get the BBCode to unfuck itself.. apparently accidentally bolding a smilly is a terrible idea.
Xolve
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#19 - 2012-02-14 20:44:30 UTC
2manno Asp wrote:

t1 frigs are already all but useless. t1 cruisers are tricky at best. afaik, there is really only ONE place in eve in which ships are given a specific forum to be used against ships of relatively equal strength/skill, and that's FW, which is ironically (or appropriately given apparent ineptitude in this dept.) an area that ccp has all but ignored.



Frigates and Cruisers are instrumental in EvE. Even at the Tech 1 (Introductory level) and are far from useless. You know how someone learns to fly a Vagabond? First the fly Rifters, then they fly Stabbers. This is more then true in multiple ways, and is a much less embarassing and more cost effective way to learn to PvP in EvE.

Even after the learning bit- T1 ships are fun to fly, fun to use, and cheap to lose. There are no such things as bad ships in EvE, just bad pilots. Creativity is a weapon.
2manno Asp
Death By Design
#20 - 2012-02-14 23:37:45 UTC  |  Edited by: 2manno Asp
Xolve wrote:
2manno Asp wrote:

t1 frigs are already all but useless. t1 cruisers are tricky at best. afaik, there is really only ONE place in eve in which ships are given a specific forum to be used against ships of relatively equal strength/skill, and that's FW, which is ironically (or appropriately given apparent ineptitude in this dept.) an area that ccp has all but ignored.



Frigates and Cruisers are instrumental in EvE. Even at the Tech 1 (Introductory level) and are far from useless. You know how someone learns to fly a Vagabond? First the fly Rifters, then they fly Stabbers. This is more then true in multiple ways, and is a much less embarassing and more cost effective way to learn to PvP in EvE.

Even after the learning bit- T1 ships are fun to fly, fun to use, and cheap to lose. There are no such things as bad ships in EvE, just bad pilots. Creativity is a weapon.


i already said all but useless.

trite sayings aside, we at least disagree on the word instrumental. instrumental to me is something like, in order to X in eve, you need Y to do it. like scanner probes to scan sites, or a t1 frigate to enter a minor plex, which i believe i pointed as a something ccp has oddly ignored.

you don't need a t1 frig to learn pvp that's for sure. i have friends that have never set foot in a t1 frig, and quite literally learned to pvp with a vagabond, in a vagabond. most skills plans i've seen in this game are focused on skipping right over t1 small stuff into bc's and above as fast as humanly possible. sad actually.

maybe they're good for ***** and giggles, and sure you can learn to pvp in them, just like you can in any ship... but they don't do anything another ship can't do better, with excpetion to my previous post. far from instrumental, more like a growing novelty.

like i said in my other post, i'd like to see insturmentality via more dimension and balance before ships for ships sake.
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