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Some questions for the CSM

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Author
DeBingJos
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2011-09-07 05:44:14 UTC  |  Edited by: DeBingJos

  1. Is Mittens acting on his own in his crusade against CCP or does everybody in the CSM agree.
  2. Do you feel the CSM is obsolete? I know you guys have put in a lot of work and I appreciate it, but how do yoiu guys feel about it?
  3. Why is there so little communication with the community from CCP? I'd rather have a heated discussion with some CCP employees than the total silence we have now. I can't shake the feeling that nobody is allowed to talk about it. (Which is very bad ofc)

Ungi maðurinn þekkir reglurnar, en gamli maðurinn þekkir undantekningarnar. The young man knows the rules, but the old man knows the exceptions.

Meissa Anunthiel
Redshift Industrial
Rooks and Kings
#2 - 2011-09-07 10:22:37 UTC
There's no crusade against CCP, there's constant dialog. 90% of it goes wonderfully.
Sometimes there's hiccups, and after attempts at solving the situation peacefully and quietly so that everyone's happy, if we can't reach consensus our job is to tell you "we're trying but we can't seem to agree". That's what's going on. No crusade. And everyone in the CSM agrees with that stance.

The CSM isn't obsolete, as I said 90% of the collaboration with CCP goes very well. Constructive dialog with CCP has never been better, particularly when it comes to specific items (ie, features/changes in development). When it comes to more structural things, we still have progress to make, but we're working on that, as we have been working on getting the dialog over features to work.

Conversations require a mutual understanding, and sometimes that's hard (on both sides). We're filling that gap, or at least trying to. That said, after the initial work, you'll find that devs enter public conversations with the public at large despite the low signal:noise ratio. Check the features & idea subforum where CCP Greyscale has been posting a lot recently.
If conversations get heated they sometimes generate needless drama, hence the efforts in trying to solve things quietly first.

Member of CSM 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7

Vile rat
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#3 - 2011-09-07 10:42:36 UTC
I like meissa's answers but I'll word it my own way.



Quote:
  • Is Mittens acting on his own in his crusade against CCP or does everybody in the DSM agree.

  • Absolutely not. We're in constant communication between all members on a persistent Skype channel coordinating, wordsmithing, and brainstorming ways to get our message across in the most effective way possible. Some of you wanted to elect people who they knew would go out there and fight effectively (and not just fiail around impotently) to fix the overall game and that's what we've done, as a team. Mittens actions are support by all of us and his words are usually the product of a lot of editing by the csm as a whole.



    Quote:
  • Do you feel the CSM is obsolete? I know you guys have put in a lot of work and I appreciate it, but how do yoiu guys feel about it?

  • Ask me after we accomplish a thing. I think we've been effective in a great many areas but the proof of it is going to come with change actually occuring. I have reasons to be positive but it's a long road from coming to an understanding with CCP and seeing that bear fruit.


    Quote:
  • Why is there so little communication with the community from CCP? I'd rather have a heated discussion with some CCP employees than the total silence we have now. I can't shake the feeling that nobody is allowed to talk about it. (Which is very bad ofc)

  • A lot of CCP members don't interact with the community. Some do but they tend to get dogpiled when they post. Some do and frankly deserved to get dogpiled for their posting. Ultimately there are a lot of good people in CCP who want to do good logical things but CCP is a business with a hierarchy that isn't always on the same messaging page and when they do speak out the message is sometimes tone deaf and really awkward. I'd personally encourage them to interact as much as possible because that's the only true way to get the pulse of the game you work on but we can be a scary crowd to interact with, especially when things get ugly.
    DeBingJos
    Sebiestor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #4 - 2011-09-07 11:50:33 UTC
    Thanks for the clear answer.

    However if you read this topic 'CSM chair declaring war on CCP, tells players to bring gasoline' you must agree that it looks more like a crusade than like a civil discussion. Pirate

    Ungi maðurinn þekkir reglurnar, en gamli maðurinn þekkir undantekningarnar. The young man knows the rules, but the old man knows the exceptions.

    Trebor Daehdoow
    The Scope
    Gallente Federation
    #5 - 2011-09-07 12:07:45 UTC
    DeBingJos wrote:

    1. Is Mittens acting on his own in his crusade against CCP or does everybody in the CSM agree.
    2. Do you feel the CSM is obsolete? I know you guys have put in a lot of work and I appreciate it, but how do yoiu guys feel about it?
    3. Why is there so little communication with the community from CCP? I'd rather have a heated discussion with some CCP employees than the total silence we have now. I can't shake the feeling that nobody is allowed to talk about it. (Which is very bad ofc)


    Mittens is not on a crusade. The CSM is united as a body, but each of us has our own style of messaging. His is more in tune with his alliance audience, mine is more analytical and dispassionate, for example. But our goals are aligned -- more resources for FiS, fix the long-standing problems in the game, etc.

    Part of the whole "CSM is obsolete" thing is that a lot of what we do is under the surface. There is lots of communication between CSM and CCP and internally in CSM about a lot of stuff that never rises to public attention. This is an issue I'm trying to address, but it is in the early stages.

    As for comms, first CCP was on vacation, and then they were consumed with release planning. I'm sure once things settle down they'll be back to trolling the community.

    Private Citizen • CSM in recovery

    AnzacPaul
    Tactically Challenged
    Tactical Supremacy
    #6 - 2011-09-07 12:47:11 UTC
    I have a question.

    Why are we being forced to use the Captain's Quarters? Many people are not interested in this feature at all. Is it purely to entice people to use the nex store?

    The problem with asking a question like this is, you want to ask a crapload more, but most of them answered by CCP get the typical Soon ™ reply.

    Meissa Anunthiel
    Redshift Industrial
    Rooks and Kings
    #7 - 2011-09-07 13:06:28 UTC
    AnzacPaul wrote:
    I have a question.

    Why are we being forced to use the Captain's Quarters? Many people are not interested in this feature at all. Is it purely to entice people to use the nex store?

    The problem with asking a question like this is, you want to ask a crapload more, but most of them answered by CCP get the typical Soon ™ reply.



    It's a combination of factors. The "old" hangar relied on outdated rendering technology CCP is trying to get rid of (and is doing so one bit at a time). Also, a little bird tells me there's concern within some parts of CCP that if they don't make it mandatory, few people will use it and it will be pointed at as another example of failure.

    This latter point is something we've tried vehemently to get CCP not to do during CSM 5, but they wouldn't budge. I believe if the feature is compelling enough, people will use it and that's it. Skewing the metrics to show you were right is wrong.
    A valid counter point to my own argument that has been made is that people are resistant to change and if you don't put in their face, they'll never try it out when they might have liked it. That's an argument I'm sympathetic with, but is insufficient to justify the end result.

    Then performance issues piled on top of it, but that's secondary to the main issue, except insofar as we were promissed we wouldn't be forced into getting into CQ unless the UI became responsive in more or less the same time than it took before (and that's not the case).

    You'll get a longer answer to "new hangar" etc. in the minutes when they'll be released.

    Member of CSM 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7

    Ingvar Angst
    Nasty Pope Holding Corp
    #8 - 2011-09-07 14:52:45 UTC
    Are they aware that a lot of us don't use it anyhow? Even when I had it active, as a rule I'll head to empire on occasion from the hole, pop into a station, buy, sell and leave. The character stands there, never taking a step. There's a lot of us that quite often simply want to get in, get done and get gone.

    I can appreciate that they're trying to expand the game into the stations... it's kind of adding an MMO "feel" to it with avatars that will interact. But there should, ideally, be considerations for those that prefer to play the game that exists outside the stations.

    Six months in the hole... it changes a man.

    VaMei
    Meafi Corp
    #9 - 2011-09-07 15:03:32 UTC
    Vile rat wrote:
    Some of you wanted to elect people who they knew would go out there and fight effectively (and not just fiail around impotently) to fix the overall game and that's what we've done, as a team.


    Do you think you are having any success persuading CCP to create a team dedicated to design/balance review? Early on in this CSM, a getting CCP to create a team like this was a major talking point.

    Team BFF has done great things from the 'Thousand Papercuts' angle, but there is much more that really needs attention. Many of those problems are likely outside of BFF's control since they are strictly speaking 'working as intended'; the problem being that what used to make good sense when a design was created, doesn't make sense in hindsight or after other game changes.
    Two step
    Aperture Harmonics
    #10 - 2011-09-07 15:17:42 UTC
    VaMei wrote:
    Vile rat wrote:
    Some of you wanted to elect people who they knew would go out there and fight effectively (and not just fiail around impotently) to fix the overall game and that's what we've done, as a team.


    Do you think you are having any success persuading CCP to create a team dedicated to design/balance review? Early on in this CSM, a getting CCP to create a team like this was a major talking point.

    Team BFF has done great things from the 'Thousand Papercuts' angle, but there is much more that really needs attention. Many of those problems are likely outside of BFF's control since they are strictly speaking 'working as intended'; the problem being that what used to make good sense when a design was created, doesn't make sense in hindsight or after other game changes.


    We haven't gotten a whole team, but we did get a dev, CCP Tallest. He posted on the old forums about the Dramiel and Logi ships, and we have been talking to him a lot about how to fix supercaps. We haven't given up on pushing for this, it certainly is needed.

    CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog

    VaMei
    Meafi Corp
    #11 - 2011-09-07 15:56:53 UTC  |  Edited by: VaMei
    Two step wrote:
    We haven't gotten a whole team, but we did get a dev, CCP Tallest. He posted on the old forums about the Dramiel and Logi ships, and we have been talking to him a lot about how to fix supercaps. We haven't given up on pushing for this, it certainly is needed.


    Getting a Dev is a good start, but it does leave me a bit concerned. Can any one Dev actually have a good understanding of how any one part of Eve interacts with the rest of the game in all of its environments; let alone how all aspects interact with each other?

    To use Logis as an example (and I think a simple one), how many of Eve's hardcore gamers actually have a good understanding of how all 4 logis work in small gang, fleet, Empire PvP, WH PvE, and Incursions? If the players that use them day in and day out can't claim to have that level of understanding, how can a single Dev be expected to have it or how long will it take to get it? Without that understanding, there is a good chance that fixing one thing will break something else.

    As a more difficult example, make Gallente viable in solo, small gang, and fleet without making them OP. The players that fly them (or fly against them) day in and day out can barely agree what the problem is let alone how best to fix it.

    But I digress. Eve is the deepest, most complex game I know of, and it is continually evolving. I hope that CCP doesn't think that any one person can actually hope to balance it; even with the impartial help of unbiased players.Lol
    Two step
    Aperture Harmonics
    #12 - 2011-09-07 16:42:01 UTC
    VaMei wrote:
    Two step wrote:
    We haven't gotten a whole team, but we did get a dev, CCP Tallest. He posted on the old forums about the Dramiel and Logi ships, and we have been talking to him a lot about how to fix supercaps. We haven't given up on pushing for this, it certainly is needed.


    Getting a Dev is a good start, but it does leave me a bit concerned. Can any one Dev actually have a good understanding of how any one part of Eve interacts with the rest of the game in all of its environments; let alone how all aspects interact with each other?

    To use Logis as an example (and I think a simple one), how many of Eve's hardcore gamers actually have a good understanding of how all 4 logis work in small gang, fleet, Empire PvP, WH PvE, and Incursions? If the players that use them day in and day out can't claim to have that level of understanding, how can a single Dev be expected to have it or how long will it take to get it? Without that understanding, there is a good chance that fixing one thing will break something else.

    As a more difficult example, make Gallente viable in solo, small gang, and fleet without making them OP. The players that fly them (or fly against them) day in and day out can barely agree what the problem is let alone how best to fix it.

    But I digress. Eve is the deepest, most complex game I know of, and it is continually evolving. I hope that CCP doesn't think that any one person can actually hope to balance it; even with the impartial help of unbiased players.Lol


    Well, the one dev can talk to other devs, as well as to the CSM and to the public (see the feedback thread on the dram/logi on the other forums).

    Our basic philosophy on this sort of stuff is that this is why it is important to make balance a continuous process. If balance changes happened every 2 months, making a ship a bit OP for a while is no big deal, it can be fixed in the next patch.

    CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog

    Di Mulle
    #13 - 2011-09-07 17:55:46 UTC
    Two step wrote:


    Our basic philosophy on this sort of stuff is that this is why it is important to make balance a continuous process. If balance changes happened every 2 months, making a ship a bit OP for a while is no big deal, it can be fixed in the next patch.


    This was one of the most agreed points through all CSM members (and I totatlly support this).

    However, we aren't seeing this implemented so far. One already half-forgotten Tallest devblog with no actions barely counts.

    What are, I don't know, organizational, production or simply attitude reasons for that ?
    <<Insert some waste of screen space here>>
    
    Two step
    Aperture Harmonics
    #14 - 2011-09-07 18:32:20 UTC
    Di Mulle wrote:
    Two step wrote:


    Our basic philosophy on this sort of stuff is that this is why it is important to make balance a continuous process. If balance changes happened every 2 months, making a ship a bit OP for a while is no big deal, it can be fixed in the next patch.


    This was one of the most agreed points through all CSM members (and I totatlly support this).

    However, we aren't seeing this implemented so far. One already half-forgotten Tallest devblog with no actions barely counts.

    What are, I don't know, organizational, production or simply attitude reasons for that ?


    This is an area where the CSM/Player communications need to improve. After Tallest's initial batch of changes, he started work on the supercap balance changes. The CSM and a bunch of CCP devs have a 5 page thread on the old forums talking about some of his proposed changes. I think he has a final version of the changes ready for us (and you) to look at, hopefully we will all see that soon.

    CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog

    DeBingJos
    Sebiestor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #15 - 2011-09-07 18:40:48 UTC
    Two step wrote:

    This is an area where the CSM/Player communications need to improve. After Tallest's initial batch of changes, he started work on the supercap balance changes. The CSM and a bunch of CCP devs have a 5 page thread on the old forums talking about some of his proposed changes. I think he has a final version of the changes ready for us (and you) to look at, hopefully we will all see that soon.


    Just an idea: make the CSM-CC¨forums readable by everyone. Only CSM and CCP can post (like it is now) but everybody can see what is happening.

    Ungi maðurinn þekkir reglurnar, en gamli maðurinn þekkir undantekningarnar. The young man knows the rules, but the old man knows the exceptions.

    Meissa Anunthiel
    Redshift Industrial
    Rooks and Kings
    #16 - 2011-09-08 07:41:59 UTC
    DeBingJos wrote:
    Two step wrote:

    This is an area where the CSM/Player communications need to improve. After Tallest's initial batch of changes, he started work on the supercap balance changes. The CSM and a bunch of CCP devs have a 5 page thread on the old forums talking about some of his proposed changes. I think he has a final version of the changes ready for us (and you) to look at, hopefully we will all see that soon.


    Just an idea: make the CSM-CC¨forums readable by everyone. Only CSM and CCP can post (like it is now) but everybody can see what is happening.


    Terrible idea. That forum works because there's a mutual understanding with the CSM and CCP. That comes from having had long interactions with CCP and understanding how they function.
    It means that we can argue back and forth openly, without anyone having to fear players would run with "CCP X said ******** thing Y". It also prevents plans/ideas to be taken as promises.

    One of the lingering issues with CCP communications is that any statement is taken as a promise, and when CCP fails to deliver the players are up in arms because "they promised".

    There's quite a few players who'd be able to read those forums correctly, but I don't think as a whole it would be beneficial in the least.

    Member of CSM 2, 3, 4, 5, 6 and 7

    DeBingJos
    Sebiestor Tribe
    Minmatar Republic
    #17 - 2011-09-08 07:49:49 UTC
    Meissa Anunthiel wrote:
    There's no crusade against CCP, there's constant dialog.


    Update on this: The Mittani Declares War


    About the CSM-CCP forums: I gues you are right. However, a bit more communication to the playerbase both from CCP and CSM wouldn't hurt.



    Ungi maðurinn þekkir reglurnar, en gamli maðurinn þekkir undantekningarnar. The young man knows the rules, but the old man knows the exceptions.

    Zagam
    Caldari Provisions
    Caldari State
    #18 - 2011-09-08 13:19:32 UTC
    DeBingJos wrote:
    Meissa Anunthiel wrote:
    There's no crusade against CCP, there's constant dialog.


    Update on this: The Mittani Declares War


    About the CSM-CCP forums: I gues you are right. However, a bit more communication to the playerbase both from CCP and CSM wouldn't hurt.




    Communication from the CSM has been pretty forthcoming, actually. (see: This entire forum) Their biggest impediment to more detailed conversation is the NDA, which not much can be done about.

    Communication from CCP hasn't been great, but based on experience from several other MMO (AO, DAOC, FFXI, WoW), there is worse out there.

    Of all the things that needs improvement regarding communication, CCP's communication and direct community involvement needs the most help.
    Seleene
    Body Count Inc.
    Pandemic Legion
    #19 - 2011-09-08 13:45:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Seleene
    DeBingJos wrote:

    1. Is Mittens acting on his own in his crusade against CCP or does everybody in the CSM agree.

    I don't think there is a 'crusade' going on so much as an 'awakening'. That being said, Mittens usually runs his larger statements by the rest of us in order to ensure we all have common ground to stand on if for no other reason than to ensure our overall message is as loud and clear as possible.

    Quote:
  • Do you feel the CSM is obsolete? I know you guys have put in a lot of work and I appreciate it, but how do yoiu guys feel about it?

  • I'm going to agree with what Vile has said - time will tell just how effective we have been. I personally believe this CSM has managed to open doors of communication with CCP that no other CSM has so far. Even amidst all of the DRAMA, there are still cordial exchanges taking place between the CSM and CCP. If nothing else, that alone will make things much easier for future CSM's.

    Quote:
  • Why is there so little communication with the community from CCP? I'd rather have a heated discussion with some CCP employees than the total silence we have now. I can't shake the feeling that nobody is allowed to talk about it. (Which is very bad ofc)

  • I can't really answer that other than to say CCP doesn't really like folks to get into 'headed discussions' on the forums with players very much. Big smile

    I've said my bit about the whole mess here in my recent blog post: Reality Check. We're not really aiming to start riots and all that, but I think most players agree that something is wrong with EVE and there's nothing wrong with a concerted effort pointing that out.

    2004-2008: Mercenary Coalition Boss

    2007-2010: CCP Game Designer | 2011-2013: CSM6 Delegate & CSM7 Chairman

    2011-2015: Pandemic Legionnaire

    2015- : Mercenary Coalition Boss

    Follow Seleene on Twitter!

    Dusty Warrior
    Doomheim
    #20 - 2011-09-08 15:19:38 UTC
    So... the rest of you CSM guys are in full support of Mittens eh? Help him in editing his reponses even? That's great!

    I find myself wondering if this show of support is because you think everyone has forgotten what an ass Mittens made of himself on the old forums and you think people have forgotten or you just think it's the cool thing to do now.

    I remember his self centered vile spewing, meh!

    Either way I still support the idea of terminating the CSM as it serves little more purpose than to allow the members to preen in front of a player base.

    Some suggestions from the old forums:

    1) Terminate CSM - It's apparent by their own admissions from the old forums they have no interest in listening to anyone who didn't vote last election. ( I understand the concept and if this were in a RL situation, however this is not. This is a game in which EVERYONE pays subscriptions to play.) Implement a log-in survey and allow anyone who logs in have a voice.

    ^*Not sure what the publicity stunt is for and why all the hype after the new forums pop up. I suppose the CSM/CCP is hoping we've forgotten about the abuse with no apology.*^

    2) Remove Sov mechanics.

    3) Remove any and all CCP employees from the game as players within corps/alliances. Corporate policy should not allow an employee to be a part of the playerbase for reasons we are all aware of, hence the formation of the CSM.

    4) CCP, start acting like you are the best. It worked for you for several years and you gave this awesome game life. Now it's time you remove the constraints (CSM) and move forward as you were meant to do.

    CCP you created an awesome game, while I do not like the CQ or NEX, your game is still intact. You've got to get rid of the politics though. Lose the CSM and the sov mechanics and you'll be able to go back to spending your money on the things that matter to most of the players.

    If you need help cleaning the towers and blockade/sov units etc. I and I'm sure many other carebears are willing to buckle up and fly down to 0.0 to help in the removal process. Blink
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