Assembly Hall

First off, (legally) RL money can only buy you isk. You use isk to buy a character, which is not the same as RL money because billions of isk can easily be earned through other in-game means... Since RL begets isk which begets a character, I very much understand why buying a character feels like RMTing, but it's very different. Essentially, buying a character is NOT cheating. Comparing it to other MMO's, it's on par with buying a fancy weapon or armor set with ingame currency.

Second, what exactly do you need to "Fix" with your character? You somehow have this flawed notion that your character is broken because you trained some skill that you no longer use. Guess what... that doesn't make your character BROKEN... Nothing needs to be "FIXED"!!! Training the skills you previously trained allows you to explore a certain aspect of the game... just becuase you decide it isn't something you want to do anymore doesn't mean you should be able to undo your sp's and reapply them to another area of the game. Can you undo the experiences those skills enabled? Of course not... so why should you be able to undo those skill points?

And seriously, either you need to undo an enormous amount of skillpoints or you're just a really lazy player. You should be earning 2k sp/hr, or 333k per week, or 1m sp every 3 weeks (25% more if you spec your attributes). I already pointed out: 1.3 m skillpoints earns you any cruiser V, and another 1m skillpoints earns you any t2 medium weapons! WTF do you want to swap your skills to that you can't wait 7 weeks to do? And by the way, that's not 7 weeks of sitting on your ass and waiting, as it takes only 7 days to train medium guns IV and cruiser's IV. If you're trying to swap from Armor T2 BS's to Shield T2 BS's, then you need to swap so many skillpoints that you're essentially asking for a complete character redo...

The way I see it, the only reason to push for sp redistribution is because you are:

1. Really freaking lazy or so anal you can't fly a ship until its t2 fit with perfect skills!
2. Shifting your EvE play-style so radically that only a HUGE redistribution will satisfy you, at which point you need to HTFU and go to the character bazaar.
3. A Power-gaming FOTM player that can't stand waiting 2 months to fly the next FOTM.

Remember, SP redistribution DOES NOT FIX YOUR CHARACTER....

So now, please try again: why do you want and deserve sp redistribution?

Well, actually Vertisce's Soritenshi respec idea he posted in other topic was a little bit different than mine. Difference being that here you can actually double train to some extent, while in the idea he suggested it should be either one or the another.



Unfortunately not. As long as clone/pod system exists, your character actually CAN be broken in many ways. Any unnecessary skills increases your pods cost (up to 90m?) while not giving basically any advantage, thus gimping you totally. Some may say its too little while for others it can be very annoying. Still it makes one group of players happier, while not touching the ones that dont care, so whats the problem?

That was just an example. Theres also an perfectionist type players, that would simply love to have their skills sheet cleared out a bit , then many others potential players wanting to adjust their skills for several reasons (aesthetic being one of them). With FOTM rerollers exluded as they basically couldnt benefit from it.

BTW You mention these 3m refundable SP for a second time (and what you could get for it).

Read the first post once again then see that I said "ONE to three" millions, which means that it was just an example. Keep in mind that this idea is not about numbers, numbers are adjustable. Its more about new game mechanics that could be implemented. When we got working mechanics then we can balance it freely.

Firstly, theres difference between skills that arent applicable to every ship and the skills that arent applicable to ANY ship that you may ever consider flying. You see what I did there? The thing is that these certain SPs will never help me nor they will ever contribute in any way. They are wasted, simply.

Secondly. You pvping in expensvie implants has nothing to do with that, clone costs increases (fact), thus high SP characters are penalized compared to lower SP ones (also fact).


Wait then how the... could my method which makes you untrain skills at LOWEST possible speed allow to reroll faster than simply training these (usually perc-will) skills at high attribute based speed? Care to explain? If rerolling, as you said, takes just a little bit of time (two weeks) then what would be the point in untraining something at 17/17 (lowest possible) attribute speed when you could simply train them at 32/26 or so? Also keep in mind that you DONT have unlitmited SP coming from respecs, they are not magically taken out of your @ss.

Add to this an limited SP pool size (that prevents stockpiling) plus annually capped retrainable SP and you, as fotm reroller, are basically blocked in every way.


None of the above is the case. Using this mechanism you cant have anything OF THE MOMENT. As SP stockpiling is basically disabled, it needs a time and it needs more time than as it would by default.

"You have yet to provide any reason why this is needed in game." Well, I did many times, read the topic.


I must admit that this particular problem existed in previous version of this "idea" I posted on the old forums. But, fortunately, its no longer the case after I added limitations in form of total cap and pool size. Assuming that you can untrain 1m SP (which as I said is debatable and fully adjustable) then you could train whole 1m charisma based skills at 32perc/26will speed, YAY thats fantastic! Thats marginal amount.

Now, are you ready to admit that you are just being an really stubborn person?

This is my counter-proposal... It solves all the same issues your proposal solves, without breaking the game:




Even those skills that aren't applicable to ANY ship that you may ever consider flying still give you a potential advantage in this game because you CAN utilize them. Just because you CHOOSE to not utilize those skills does not mean they DON'T provide an ingame advantage. And while the you're low-utility skillpoints contribute to an increased clone cost, the extra cost is VERY SMALL, especially compared to the benefits gained by the extra SP. This is a bullshit reason and you know it, and if you feel otherwise, my counter-proposal gives you perfect solution that doesn't break the game.



At 17/17, you earn ~250k sp/week. Spec'd you earn 300-450k sp/week. With your annual 3m sp cap, you're suggestion allows for 3 months of highly increased sp retraining. Let me explain what the status quo will be with your suggestion:

Most players will retain their near cap sp pool until they need those sp. They will insta-learn something when they need it, and then restock their sp for the next need. A low stock-cap will limit some of this, but even at 1m sp-storage, they can learn a SHITLOAD of skills instantly to V, and every skill in the game to IV. By being able to apply those SP instantly, your enabling anyone that store's their SP to instantly get into a ship, or use a module or ability that they didn't specifically plan ahead for. This is the primary definition of an FOTM player, and your redistribution scheme enables it, even with your low cap. Prior to any major patch, 85% of EvE will start untraining their SP up to their sp cap. Come release date, FOTM fliers will have those insta-sp's, plus signficantly increased training speeds provided by the unlearn/relearn trick to very quickly get into any new and hot ship. FOTM builders will do the same, allowing them to very quickly mass produce any FOTM items, etc, etc, etc. This very much marginalizes the benefits a well-rounded player gets from having planned and PREVIOUSLY trained the less-than-booming stuff that is now booming. This might seem like a no-big-deal thing to you, but it undermines the long-term planners and players because their sp advantages are quickly negated by your sp redistribution. This is what people are talking about when they mention inst-FOTM repseccers, and it's reason number one why sp redistribution is wrong. Do you not understand this??? Or do you just not care??



You realize that not being able to "undo" your mistakes is a core tenet of EvE. You don't get money back because you have buyers remorse after buying a bunch of overpriced stuff, or misreading a contract and getting scammed, or losing your ship to pirates, or losing your ship to NPC's because you fit the wrong hardeners, or you fit the wrong rig on your ship, or stuck in the wrong implant, or . . . Why should you be able to correct less-than-idea training choices? Training a less-than-idea skill does NOT prevent you from later on training a higher-utility skill. It doesn't hinder you from advancing in game...

Sorry, but I got no time to write three double-A4 posts on daily basis, so I'll keep it shorter now.


They give me POTENTIAL advantage (which will most likely never be used) while giving ACTUAL disadvantage that is always there. Sorry but I will pass and choose something that is used most of the time, or wait, or simply something that *IS* used.

And no, but ~90m per clone is not cheap. Its actually cost of tier2 BS!


If 1m SP allows to get shitload of skills then those skills with their low multipliers could as well be trained traditionally almost equally fast. They are non factors. Skills that matters, the x8 and higher ones are practically not affected by this mechanism at all. If you suggest that someone getting mining (or some similarly important skill) from lvl 4 to 5 will break the game you must seriously rethink what you say.

You keep mentioning these 3m SP in every second post like it was the core of this idea, while its not. I've pointed many times already, Its ADJUSTABLE and open do discussion. It could as well be 1m, 500k or even f*cking 100k. SP in pool could decrease over time so you would be forced to redistribute faster. SP pull could even not exists at all and skill points would be transferred from one skill directly to another, completlely negating EVERY SINGLE ONE of your objections. Why couldnt you suggest any of those, but instead you come here to bash everything I say?

I came with the "pool" idea since its here, already working and implemented in game, linking it with untraining mechanism code parts would make it much easier, but hell lets just scrap it, right?


Its not, its just stupid mantra repeated by people like drake draconis & co. The thing they made it like that in 2003 doesnt mean its perfect and shouldnt be changed. Its game developers, they CAN do mistakes.

A 90m isk clone has 264m skillpoints, and needs an extra 80m sp in unwanted skills to bump it up to the next level, which even then is only a 30m difference in price. No where near the cost of a T2 BS (500m).

Realistically, even if you spent the first year training skills you no longer want, your increased clone cost from your desired skills to your current skills is on the order of 7 million isk or less. This is not a signficant cost, unless your a noob... and if you are a noob, you don't have that many sp, so the cost is no where near 7 million. This cost you point to is very, very negligible for ANY competent player.



LvL 5 Rnk 1 costs 256k. double that for rank 2 (512k), triple it for rank 3 (768k), etc.

So, 1m sp insta-trains a Rnk 4 skill to level V, and gets you 80% of the way to completing a Rank V (Those numbers are from scratch, it's pretty much exactly 1m sp to train from LvL IV to LvL V with a Rank 5 skill).
If you think the only skills "that matter" are x8 and higher, you're are very ignorant:

• Rank 4 and below: All frigate and adv Frigate Skills, Trade Skills, Most industry Skills, Most PI Skills, all subsystem skills, all social skills, all armor/shield core skills, all EWAR skills, All medium weapons, small weapons, and most weapon support skills,
• Rank 5: Any Racial Cruiser, Adv SC, R&D/Invention Skills, Cynos, Adv EWAR skills, Drone Skills, Large Weapon Skills, Leadership Specialization Skills
• Rank 6: BC, HAC, Recon, Logistics, AWU, Warefare Specialist, HICS, Transports,
• Rank 7: Capital Weapon Skills, Starbase defense skills
• Rank 8: Command Ships, BS skills, adv Large Weapons, capital armor/shield skills, WC
• Rank 9+: FC, BO, Marauders, and Capital ship skills.

1m insta-trains into a cruiser/BC, 2m insta-trains into a BS, and 3m insta-trains capital ships.

Scenario: CCP decides to revamp mining, so it now pays better than incursions. I have no mining skills to speak of, but with 1m sp, I can train Industry V, Mining V, & Astrogeology V. Now, my percep/will spec'd character suddenly can train Mining Barge to 3 w/in half a day, and can be in exhumers within 2 weeks. Without the 1m in stored sp, It would take me 28 additional days to get to the same spot (half that if I had a couple respecs to use, but I don't).

Recent Scenario: CCP buffed Assault ships to be awesome solopwning frigates. With 1m sp to spare, people could insta-train any t2 frig with t2 weapons. People can instantly jump into ships like the Hawk or Harpy, which were obscure and often untrained beforehand. They could also instantly train Assault Ships V, since it now fully fleshes out AF's into potent little ships. They no longer have to wait the 2-4 weeks to train these, and can do it instantly. Optionally, if I was an AF builder, I could instantly max my Hawk/Harpy Invention skills to maximize the profits associated with the new ship demands.




You specifically asked for "CONS - Find One" in your post. You didn't ask for ideas on how to improve it. Not only did I find "cons" in your post, like you asked, I explicitly showed how your notion that "this idea won't create FOTM respecs" IS INCORRECT. By the way, you implicitly ASK for critiques when you posted your idea to the forum area specifically designed to debate issues and ideas. I'm trying not to Bash on you, nor undeservingly bash your idea, but I am critique your idea by pointing out the major FLAWS in your idea. Sorry if this comes across as unhelpful, but this is NOT a new idea, nor is your spin on it. Additionally, you do NOT come across as someone that has researched it, nor as someone that understands the nuances within it. This is why you have been met with such overwhelming negativity.





If you want to debate this too, we can dig up some dev quotes supporting my notion. We can point out the game mechanics, the GM rulings, and the examples that support my viewpoint. However, I don't think you really want to go there (if you do, let me know). Otherwise, given the lack of valid reasons "why we need this", I'm ready to let this thread fade away into oblivion.

I agree.

Yes. But the point being that you have the OPTION to use SP you have already aquired towards something else. While untraining you would not gain any new SP. Your total SP stays the same. You instead gain unallocated SP and lose a skill. I believe his proposal is to allow both training and untraining at the same time. I would not support that.

Your entire proposal makes no sense. It would be game-breaking in EVE and defeat one of the core concepts of the game. This will NEVER happen, so get used to it. Otherwise, please biomass yourself and go play WoW/Space Barbies/SWOR...