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CSM - Do you think? (... continued)

First post First post
Author
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#121 - 2011-09-13 06:59:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Tallian Saotome
Cipher Jones wrote:
You don't even understand what you are talking about.

For one, the biggest Heist so far has been from Hisec. There are way more people in hisec. The reason it makes a difference is because people spends thousands of real world dollars buying ships for nullsec.

Biggest heist to date Is White Noise. for 900 trillion isk, not the bernie madoff wannabees

Cipher Jones wrote:

But the problem is this;

Alliance gets a hold on good ratting space.

A L4 mission runner makes more than anyone not in a carrier can make botting. Carrier bots are a problem, but its not like there are alot of them compared to said L4 macros.
Cipher Jones wrote:

People bot.

People RMT.

RMT'ers sell isk for way less than half of what CCP sells it for.

I wont link to any of that $**** here, but 5 minutes with google and you can confirm for yourself. And it has been linked to right here (on the old forums anyway) so that one can see.

You see more large scale transactions in null, yes, because you have larger concentrations of isk and assets in the hands of an alliance, allowing someone who has access to those concentrations who is corrupt to quickly move large amounts of isk for cash. And I will allow that RMT, as a whole, is larger in null than high. Botting is another story tho, and I would wager there are more L4 bots and mining bots in highsec(not even looking at the station trader bots) than all kinds of bots combined in low.

Don't confuse RMT and botting, they are not the same problem, linked tho they may be. They facilitate each other, but you will have one without the other.

Also, don't think that highsec is magically a clean place because its alot of small groups, instead of a smaller number of large one whos names people know.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.

Prince Kobol
#122 - 2011-09-13 07:00:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Prince Kobol
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:

Spend about 5 minutes on a few bot forums and you will see the vast majority of them live in null.

I don't frequent bot forums.

Funny that you do though.



Why would it be funny?

I have often admitted on this site that I visit bots forum. I also visit many RMT sites that sell isk to keep track of the price as that is the best way to see if CCP is being effective at banning bots.

Unlike yourself I research what I'm talking about before shooting my mouth off :)

So yeah, I know for a fact that most people that sell isk back to the RMT sites live in null and make most of their isk ratting.

Another popular method using bots to make enough isk to sell back is using market bots.

Very few people who use bots to mine ore/ice can generate enough isk to sell back to the RMT sites, also they find it a lot safer to bot in null as there is less chance of getting ganked :)

Also in the last few months CCP has been very effective in stopping people mining 24/7 in bots in high sec. They have already made one what was one of the most popular botting programs - roid-ripper void.

So in other words you have no idea what you are talking about :)
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#123 - 2011-09-13 07:04:28 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:

Spend about 5 minutes on a few bot forums and you will see the vast majority of them live in null.

I don't frequent bot forums.

Funny that you do though.



Why would it be funny?

I have often admitted on this site that I visit bots forum. I also visit many RMT sites that sell isk to keep track of the price as that is the best way to see if CCp is being effective at banning bots.

Unlike yourself I research what I'm talking about before shooting my mouth off :)

So yeah, I know for a fact that most people that sell isk back to the RMT sites live in null and that the price of isk via RMT sites has never been cheaper.

Because everyone who uses those uses the forums Roll I'd grant that its about the same proportion of people that use the EvE-O forums, and the same groups of people who tend to be vocal(namely, those who have a vested interest in an advantage, where they can lose everything they gained from said advantage in a day).

As I said before , RMT is more prevalent in null than in high, but thats not because of good ratting space, or good bots.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.

Florestan Bronstein
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#124 - 2011-09-13 07:23:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Florestan Bronstein
Prince Kobol wrote:

Lol.. of course it is :)

Who sells isk to the RMT sites.... oh thats right, it must be the 1 person in mack botting in a ice field and not the 100's of bots in null earning millions of isk ratting bots?

Spend about 5 minutes on a few bot forums and you will see the vast majority of them live in null.

A year ago most botting might have been in 0.0 as ratting bots were pretty efficient.

But ratting bots have to share a scarce resource with real players (which leads to conflict and reports by angry players who wanted that faction spawn your bot just stole), are easily recognizable (as 0.0 systems tend to be pretty empty) and run - even with safespots/POSes prepared - a substantial risk of getting destroyed by roaming gangs (drop bubbles at belts or the POS when passing through first time, return a little later and kill bot).

Mission bots' ISK/h is comparable to ratting in 0.0, they don't "take away" anyone's scarce resource (just destroy LP prices P), they blend in with a few hundred other mission runners in a busy hub, on war-decs they can switch corps and unless they are fitted as loot piƱatas chances of getting suicide ganked are slim.

As far as I can see the only real advantage of ratting bots is that they can afford to be pretty stupid and you don't have to risk getting (perma)banned for "client modification".

On the other hand chances of stepping on real people's toes are much bigger in 0.0 (even more so after the CA nerfs), chances of happening upon some zealot who will report you regardless of alliance policies are pretty large, chances of CCP changing their mind and deciding to punish your corp/alliance for tolerating your botting in their space may be slim but exist, ...

I would expect that many people who used to bot in 0.0 have migrated to high-sec during this year.

That doesn't exclude that these high-sec bots belong to 0.0 mains - always a good idea to stay close to your market and build the mutual trust required for a RMT business.
Jee'ta
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#125 - 2011-09-13 08:02:34 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:

Big alliances electing CSMs run the risk of pushing the game to alliance and null sec, while constantly penalising PvE, WH and high sec players.


Your argument is based on a false premise. The CSM gets to raise issues and provide feedback. They don't get to specify game mechanics, CCP does that.

Just as it was CCP that raised the issue of ABC ores in wormholes and will be the ones to decide if it is an issue that requires a change.


Jenshae Chiroptera
#126 - 2011-09-13 08:18:34 UTC
Jee'ta wrote:
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:

Big alliances electing CSMs run the risk of pushing the game to alliance and null sec, while constantly penalising PvE, WH and high sec players.


Your argument is based on a false premise. The CSM gets to raise issues and provide feedback. They don't get to specify game mechanics, CCP does that.

Just as it was CCP that raised the issue of ABC ores in wormholes and will be the ones to decide if it is an issue that requires a change.



... and you didn't read back or forward enough? A hypothetical scenario was:

Goon's director, "Get me more people in null sec!"
Goon's staff, "Yes, sir! We will suggest they remove ABC ores."
Goon's CSMs, "Much of ABC ores come from WHs."
Other CSMs, "Lies!"

That is quite a plausible scenario based on what was written in those notes. Not probable but possible.
Which, is why I am asking, "Is Goon's being so pervasive not a huge conflict of interests and influencing the game down on blinkered perspective?"

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Jee'ta
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#127 - 2011-09-13 08:57:16 UTC

A "plausible" scenario that you invented is the basis of your complaint?

I repeat. The CSM doesn't get to give mechanics or even directions, they raise general issues and provide feedback if requested. This has been stated repeatedly by members of the CSM. If ABC ores get removed from wormholes it will be because CCP consider it an issue.

Alxea
Unstable Pirate Sharks Of The Damed Sea
#128 - 2011-09-13 09:07:38 UTC
Herping yourDerp wrote:
Jita Alt666 wrote:
I can argue that unless you have dealt with the logistics of fitting fleet ships for a 1000man alliance when the nearest market hub is 24 gates away while under constant encroachment by enemy roaming gangs, that you little about time and energy investment.



so u jump 10 JF from ur 0.0 station to lowsec bordering highsec, warp to gate, fill on stuff scout the lowsec gate then cyno back

hell
ESCORT YOUR ****, u know, caps on standby, 100 or so battleships

Lol
Jita Alt666
#129 - 2011-09-13 09:14:27 UTC
Alxea wrote:
Herping yourDerp wrote:
Jita Alt666 wrote:
I can argue that unless you have dealt with the logistics of fitting fleet ships for a 1000man alliance when the nearest market hub is 24 gates away while under constant encroachment by enemy roaming gangs, that you little about time and energy investment.



so u jump 10 JF from ur 0.0 station to lowsec bordering highsec, warp to gate, fill on stuff scout the lowsec gate then cyno back

hell
ESCORT YOUR ****, u know, caps on standby, 100 or so battleships

Lol


Yes I too had that reaction. Actually I had that reaction to pretty much this entire thread.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#130 - 2011-09-13 12:33:06 UTC
Jee'ta wrote:

A "plausible" scenario that you invented is the basis of your complaint?

I repeat. The CSM doesn't get to give mechanics or even directions, they raise general issues and provide feedback if requested. This has been stated repeatedly by members of the CSM. If ABC ores get removed from wormholes it will be because CCP consider it an issue.



I repeat that there is a conflict of interest here.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Jenshae Chiroptera
#131 - 2011-09-13 14:58:41 UTC
Alxea wrote:
Herping yourDerp wrote:

hell
ESCORT YOUR ****, u know, caps on standby, 100 or so battleships

Lol


Don't be silly. 1000 man alliance doesn't have people to escort their other ships. P

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#132 - 2011-09-13 15:02:14 UTC
Jade Constantine wrote:

Lets be realistic. At this point CSM has achieved nothing. Just like the player protests have currently achieved nothing. We are heading towards a decisive confrontation with an out of touch CCP management over resources for the core Eve experience. Until that fight begins and is won then nothing can be achieved really. This game is steering fearlessly towards an Iceburg and unless Hillmar can be convinced to alter course and fund the core game again in a serious fashion then any amount of re-arranging the deckchairs and furniture choices in a lounge is precisely irrelevant.

I think the CSM knows this and I think we know it.

But we should now be unified as comrades on the barricades preparing for the only fight that matters. Divisions and spite between CSM and players of all sides is now pointless.

We either get radically increased resources for Core Eve gameplay and a return to proper full content feature-rich expansions and genuine iteration on abandoned content or this game is going to sink with all hands.

The good people on the CSM are getting ready to fight. We need to get ready to fight too. There isn't going to be any prize for second place in this battle over resource priority.


Posted in another thread, but relevant here me thinks, and by someone who normally hates everything about Goons.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.

Jenshae Chiroptera
#133 - 2011-09-13 15:13:55 UTC
Tallian Saotome wrote:

Posted in another thread, but relevant here me thinks, and by someone who normally hates everything about Goons.


I agree mostly. I think that CSM is CCP's test group / meat shield for us. However, I still don't like Goons permeating all aspects of the game. If not now, probably at some point they will abuse what they have.

"The best predictor of future behaviour is past behaviour."

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Basileus Volkan
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#134 - 2011-09-13 15:20:43 UTC
Take off your Jita-bought tinfoil hats for a second and make up your minds dammit: Are Mittani, the CSM and Goons irrelevant fuckwits with no power whatsover over CCP or are they the Great Enemy of all Pubbiekind, plotting to take away your precious ores and l4 missions?
Joffre Tremblant
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#135 - 2011-09-13 15:47:53 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:
Yep.. and they all live in null :)

Pubbie logic amazes me at times.
Joffre Tremblant
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#136 - 2011-09-13 15:52:28 UTC
Tallian Saotome wrote:
Thats an awesome story, but my experience in hiighsec carebear corps(both personal and from friends) is that 90% of the time the corp just implodes under the pressure of the wardec, and highboy either cycles into another highsec corp thats gonna implode under pressure, or quits the game out of frustration.


This, oh so much this. High-sec wardecs are a joke. I have personally been a part of corporations that imploded under a wardec, taking a lot of new players with it. Contrary to what high-sec players may thing, station-games are not PvP.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#137 - 2011-09-13 22:45:52 UTC
Basileus Volkan wrote:
Take off your Jita-bought tinfoil hats for a second and make up your minds dammit: Are Mittani, the CSM and Goons irrelevant fuckwits with no power whatsover over CCP or are they the Great Enemy of all Pubbiekind, plotting to take away your precious ores and l4 missions?


Both.

When CSM want something ... too bad.
When CCP want an idea supported, then suddenly they are our voice to convince other players and other employees at CCP

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#138 - 2011-09-14 02:17:16 UTC
Right now we need to show CCP a united front as players, I think we can ALL support the current push which is nothing more that 'Get some developers working on EVE, fix it, and stop letting it stagnate'

Lets get behind them for now, and once EvE is getting the developer attention she deserves, we can go back to fighting over how that attention should be spent.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.

Ira Theos
#139 - 2011-09-14 02:45:47 UTC
Jita Alt666 wrote:
The OP seems to believe the rights of high sec people are being trodden on by 0.0 alliances. To be blunt you have limited options:

1. Start your own alliance and evict some 0.0 members (can't beat em join em...)
2. Present yourself as a CSM candidate for 2012 and fight for the rights of H.S players in that medium
3. Use the advantages of High Sec to stifle 0.0 economies - Identify who your real trade partners are and only trade with High Sec dwellers.
4. Become a High Sec PVP corp and camp the pipes/gates/hubs frequently used by 0.0 alliances in High Sec.
5. Create threads bemoaning the bias exhibited by CCP toward 0.0 and comfort yourself with the warm arms of Cipher Jones embrace.

*************

or just BOT till the Cows come home...
Ira Theos
#140 - 2011-09-14 02:56:23 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Zymurgist
El'Niaga wrote:
Jita Alt666 wrote:
CCP want more players in 0.0.

0.0 players invest more time/energy/real life money than high sec players.
0.0 players create the stories that drive EVE marketing.
0.0 is the defining difference between Eve Online and WOW in space.

Because 0.0 players invest more time/energy/real life money into the game they care more about what happens than other groups. They will ensure CCP hears their voice.



However CCP seems to not understand what brings players to 0.0 nor does the CSM....for example Goons continually tricking people into renting space only to blow them up....that's counterproductive to bringing people out. The fox doesn't kill every chicken in the coop when he comes. He takes the one he needs so that there are more later.

Nerfing High Sec will not bring them.

A single 0.0 system can support a dozen players at a time, and that's the real problem. Until a system can support hundreds of players at one time you'll never see a significant immigration to 0.0. 0.0 today cannot support a fifth of the population that hi sec can.

****************

And unless you go to NPC zero to primarily trade.... there is nothing for the average pilot to do in zero anyway but lick either the Goon's or the Russian's ass crack... so why would you want to go?

Trolling removed. Zymurgist