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CSM - Do you think? (... continued)

First post First post
Author
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#41 - 2011-09-07 09:13:15 UTC
El'Niaga wrote:
Jita Alt666 wrote:
CCP want more players in 0.0.

0.0 players invest more time/energy/real life money than high sec players.
0.0 players create the stories that drive EVE marketing.
0.0 is the defining difference between Eve Online and WOW in space.

Because 0.0 players invest more time/energy/real life money into the game they care more about what happens than other groups. They will ensure CCP hears their voice.



However CCP seems to not understand what brings players to 0.0 nor does the CSM....for example Goons continually tricking people into renting space only to blow them up....that's counterproductive to bringing people out. The fox doesn't kill every chicken in the coop when he comes. He takes the one he needs so that there are more later..

CCP doesn't control what goons do or do not do.
And Goons don't really care about bringing 'pubbies' into 0.0.
El'Niaga
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#42 - 2011-09-07 09:28:30 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
El'Niaga wrote:
Jita Alt666 wrote:
CCP want more players in 0.0.

0.0 players invest more time/energy/real life money than high sec players.
0.0 players create the stories that drive EVE marketing.
0.0 is the defining difference between Eve Online and WOW in space.

Because 0.0 players invest more time/energy/real life money into the game they care more about what happens than other groups. They will ensure CCP hears their voice.



However CCP seems to not understand what brings players to 0.0 nor does the CSM....for example Goons continually tricking people into renting space only to blow them up....that's counterproductive to bringing people out. The fox doesn't kill every chicken in the coop when he comes. He takes the one he needs so that there are more later..

CCP doesn't control what goons do or do not do.
And Goons don't really care about bringing 'pubbies' into 0.0.


If you want more folks in 0.0 you have to accept the so called 'pubbies' as you call them. If you don't then you'll never see much increase in 0.0 population. It is attitudes like yours that keeps many from coming to 0.0. The key is not to kill them off in one fell swoop or betrayal. You allow them to settle etc, then raid once or twice a week. They can still make money enough to make it worthwhile to move to 0.0, and you get to have your pvp fun too.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#43 - 2011-09-07 09:33:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
El'Niaga wrote:

If you want more folks in 0.0 you have to accept the so called 'pubbies' as you call them. If you don't then you'll never see much increase in 0.0 population. It is attitudes like yours that keeps many from coming to 0.0. The key is not to kill them off in one fell swoop or betrayal. You allow them to settle etc, then raid once or twice a week. They can still make money enough to make it worthwhile to move to 0.0, and you get to have your pvp fun too.

Attitudes like mine? I'm no goon. Just tellin' you how it is.
Anyways, what you're suggesting was tried a while ago. It was called the New Providence NIP. It did not end well.
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#44 - 2011-09-07 09:53:54 UTC
El'Niaga wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
El'Niaga wrote:
Jita Alt666 wrote:
CCP want more players in 0.0.

0.0 players invest more time/energy/real life money than high sec players.
0.0 players create the stories that drive EVE marketing.
0.0 is the defining difference between Eve Online and WOW in space.

Because 0.0 players invest more time/energy/real life money into the game they care more about what happens than other groups. They will ensure CCP hears their voice.



However CCP seems to not understand what brings players to 0.0 nor does the CSM....for example Goons continually tricking people into renting space only to blow them up....that's counterproductive to bringing people out. The fox doesn't kill every chicken in the coop when he comes. He takes the one he needs so that there are more later..

CCP doesn't control what goons do or do not do.
And Goons don't really care about bringing 'pubbies' into 0.0.


If you want more folks in 0.0 you have to accept the so called 'pubbies' as you call them. If you don't then you'll never see much increase in 0.0 population. It is attitudes like yours that keeps many from coming to 0.0. The key is not to kill them off in one fell swoop or betrayal. You allow them to settle etc, then raid once or twice a week. They can still make money enough to make it worthwhile to move to 0.0, and you get to have your pvp fun too.

If you think Goons do that every time, you are mistaken. Notice it still happens(not to long ago Lol)? It wouldn't if it happened every time, or even a significant portion of the time. Go look at the list of corps in the GoonSwarm Federation. You know that if your not in GoonFleet, your not a goon, right? All those other corps? Normal eve corps who have joined the Swarm. WIdot is probably the best example of this. They may be part of GSF now, but they still maintain their own identity.

You would have to ask a member of GSF for an example of a highsec corp they have let in, but surely its happened.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.

Skippermonkey
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#45 - 2011-09-07 09:54:52 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:

Does it follow that that same place have a near-monopoly on low-end mineral mining, ice mining, T1 and T2 manufacturing, logistics, etc. due to its safety? Not really.

Of course the safest place has a monopoly on all the things you mention, you would be stupid to believe safety isnt the number one concern for anyone with non-pvp desires.

I would personally LOVE to see people mining and missioning in losec for example; so i can kill them. Thats not going to work too well for them is it, its why the majority obviously base out of hisec.

if you want missioners and industrialists to base themselves in nulsec, the large alliances have to offer them incentives to do so, protection and an income comparable to that of hisec. I know plenty of nulsec alliances expect the industrialists to offer their services essentially 'for free' , personally i wouldnt like that.

Also, there is the obvious truth that some people just dont want to be part of nulsec alliance life.

Just to remind you what once made EVE great was that CCP created the framework of a world that we live in, and we filled it with ourselves. CCP changing the rules to remake the game in their vision isnt too appealing, as their recent capacity for ruining everything they once made so great shows no sign of abating.

COME AT ME BRO

I'LL JUST BE DOCKED IN THIS STATION

Jenshae Chiroptera
#46 - 2011-09-07 10:03:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenshae Chiroptera
Tallian Saotome wrote:
If you think Goons do that every time, you are mistaken. .


Hey Tallian! Tell us the story of how Fatal Ascension took a region. Then Goons told them who could have what? That resulted in a few corps leave I heard.

So ... if -FA- is going to let Goons dictate alliance breaking things ... how good is the posts supporting them from -FA- members?



Back to Goons biggest alliance
Goons in CSM
Goons in staff

Your thoughts?

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

The Mittani
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#47 - 2011-09-07 10:14:01 UTC
ok so in this thread i've got too much power, in the other thread i'm a powerless marketing shill of ccp

OH GOD SO CONFUSED

~hi~

Jenshae Chiroptera
#48 - 2011-09-07 10:29:04 UTC
The Mittani wrote:
ok so in this thread i've got too much power, in the other thread i'm a powerless marketing shill of ccp

OH GOD SO CONFUSED

Try getting what the community is saying in a week or two instead of dumping up and down months later? Do you even admit to interviews and stuff that you are repeating what others have already said many times?

... and ...

I think that if there were no Goon staff in CCP that CSM would be just a marketing tool.
However,
With Goons everywhere, they can use CSM as a tool to influence other CCP staff. "Look the players want this"

So it is really simply. You are and have both. Two edged sword.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Vin Hellsing
#49 - 2011-09-07 10:54:29 UTC
Personal opinion: Goonswarm should abstain from participating in the next few CSM's, and that means no cloak and dagger bullshit with using alts to get in, too.

Let the system balance out a bit. If things get too skewed in one direction, it damages the game. The basic premise of a sandbox MMO is to offer something for everybody.

If the game gets half of its features nerfed, or unbalanced, there's going to be a lot of people upset. This is the problem that Goonswarm does not seem to understand.

I don't care what the CSM - The Mittani, especially - think of the rumors of a supercap/capital rebalance, KEEP YOUR IDIOT HANDS OFF. This needs to be seen through from start to finish without any meddling.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#50 - 2011-09-07 14:56:26 UTC
Vin Hellsing wrote:
If things get too skewed in one direction, it damages the game. The basic premise of a sandbox MMO is to offer something for everybody.

That is certainly clear Smile

Just hope others can read it

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Aldarica
Perkone
Caldari State
#51 - 2011-09-07 15:11:45 UTC
The Mittani wrote:
ok so in this thread i've got too much power, in the other thread i'm a powerless marketing shill of ccp

OH GOD SO CONFUSED

Of course you don't have power. I am pretty sure that CCP is laughing at you and your fellow CSM'ers as soon as you leave the room.

Cannot blame them, though.
El'Niaga
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#52 - 2011-09-07 15:12:55 UTC
The Mittani wrote:
ok so in this thread i've got too much power, in the other thread i'm a powerless marketing shill of ccp

OH GOD SO CONFUSED



You have no power as CSM. You never were intended to. You are primarily a firewall between senior management and the players. Your secondary function is a sounding board when they choose to consult you.

CCP has plainly laid out in Greed is Good and Hilmar's leaked mail what their course is. They have no intentions of changing that course unless they see a significant change in their numbers. What is significant is only known to their senior management. That's something everyone needs to understand. Most like much like SOE with SWG in 2005 they have committed to this course and by the time they realize they've screwed up it'll be to late. The only real affect anyone can have is to cancel their subscriptions if they aren't happy. However you'd have to probably leave your account canceled for no less than 90 days to affect the numbers management looks at. Since many folks myself included by by the year etc, it can take a long time to cycle through such sufficient cancellations to actually change CCP's decision process. So much time that its probably not possible for them to fully change course anymore.

In essence they are milking EVE for what they can. Their goal is to realize DUST which will probably have a shelf life of a year given its on a console, maybe less. They'll funnel the money from it into WoD to complete development. WoD would then release about 2 years after DUST, EVE will be in a slow decline until then and most likely assuming WoD is a success sunsetted at some time between 3-5 years from now. To the suits it is business nothing more nothing less.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#53 - 2011-09-07 15:15:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Skippermonkey wrote:

if you want missioners and industrialists to base themselves in nulsec, the large alliances have to offer them incentives to do so.
Since it's CCP who wants this to happen and not so much the large alliances (who function just fine without them), it'll be CCP who will offer the incentives by breaking up hisec monopolies.

Until then it's up to you to convince 0.0 leaders why they should bring in easy kills for their enemies
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#54 - 2011-09-07 15:19:07 UTC
Jita Alt666 wrote:
[quote=Jenshae Chiroptera]
Please list, right here, right now, 10 nerfs that have hit the WH community in the last 6 months. (That being the period of time that the current CSM has been active)


You don't need 10. There are two in discussion that would greatly cripple wormhole life.

1. Removal of ABC ores. As you may or may not know. wormholes are also null. More like deep-null with -1.0 sec status. As a result, wormholes have ABC ores. These are required in wormholes for the primary reason of T3 construction. You should, hopefully, be aware that minerals are required for the gas processing that goes into T3 components and hulls. Due to the logistical difficulties of moving large quantities of anything to and from holes, taking a required component from them would greatly and directly affect T3 production resulting in, without doubt, greater prices for Tengus, Lokis, etc. as some corps would give up bothering while others raise prices to cover the additional expense and headaches.

2. Removal of Ice from high sec. Ice. We love ice. We need ice. One thing wormholes don't have, though, is ice. Our pos' are dependent, like all are, on the fuels obtained from ice. If ice leave high sec, this will directly nerf wormholes by causing a significant increase in the cost of the fuels. As a result, smaller corps will find they can no longer afford to maintain their pos, while larger corps will need to find ways to offset the fuel cost hit. This will, undoubtedly, affect once again the one thing that wormholes do produce that no one else does... T3 ships and components.

It's simple to see, when you step back and look at the different areas of Eve and how they interconnect (as opposed to focusing solely on null, or high sec, etc.) how these changes would result in negative effects rippling throughout the game. The sad part is... they would do nothing to get people into null sec. People that prefer a wormhole frontier style life want nothing to do with the mega-alliance mafia style null sec lifestyle and visa versa. High sec folks like their game a little safer, a little smaller and are happy with the lower risk/reward style they're accustomed to. There are four sandboxes in Eve... high, low, null and Anoikis. If you take the sand out of any one box, people won't decide to go play in a different box. They'll leave their empty box and go home.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.

Two step
Aperture Harmonics
#55 - 2011-09-07 15:29:06 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Jita Alt666 wrote:
[quote=Jenshae Chiroptera]
Please list, right here, right now, 10 nerfs that have hit the WH community in the last 6 months. (That being the period of time that the current CSM has been active)


You don't need 10. There are two in discussion that would greatly cripple wormhole life.

1. Removal of ABC ores. As you may or may not know. wormholes are also null. More like deep-null with -1.0 sec status. As a result, wormholes have ABC ores. These are required in wormholes for the primary reason of T3 construction. You should, hopefully, be aware that minerals are required for the gas processing that goes into T3 components and hulls. Due to the logistical difficulties of moving large quantities of anything to and from holes, taking a required component from them would greatly and directly affect T3 production resulting in, without doubt, greater prices for Tengus, Lokis, etc. as some corps would give up bothering while others raise prices to cover the additional expense and headaches.

2. Removal of Ice from high sec. Ice. We love ice. We need ice. One thing wormholes don't have, though, is ice. Our pos' are dependent, like all are, on the fuels obtained from ice. If ice leave high sec, this will directly nerf wormholes by causing a significant increase in the cost of the fuels. As a result, smaller corps will find they can no longer afford to maintain their pos, while larger corps will need to find ways to offset the fuel cost hit. This will, undoubtedly, affect once again the one thing that wormholes do produce that no one else does... T3 ships and components.

It's simple to see, when you step back and look at the different areas of Eve and how they interconnect (as opposed to focusing solely on null, or high sec, etc.) how these changes would result in negative effects rippling throughout the game. The sad part is... they would do nothing to get people into null sec. People that prefer a wormhole frontier style life want nothing to do with the mega-alliance mafia style null sec lifestyle and visa versa. High sec folks like their game a little safer, a little smaller and are happy with the lower risk/reward style they're accustomed to. There are four sandboxes in Eve... high, low, null and Anoikis. If you take the sand out of any one box, people won't decide to go play in a different box. They'll leave their empty box and go home.


Firstly, people in w-space do have representation on the current CSM. I am a wormhole resident, Meissa spends some time in w-space, and Trebor has alts in a w-space corp. If you wanted more representation, you should have campaigned for me to get a full seat on the CSM during the last election.

As for your issues, nobody is talking about the complete removal of ABC from w-space. CCP suggested that they thought it was not fair for the best ores to be present in lower class wormholes (generally C1-C3), that usually have a direct k-space connection. This has by no means been decided, and your scare tactics about T3 prices rising is just that, a scare tactic. The amount of minerals used in T3 production is miniscule, and many T3s are already being built in empire anyway.

It is also not a given that moving ice to 0.0 would raise prices. We (on the CSM) haven't seen the specifics, but it is likely that mining rates would increase if and when ice was moved. This might result in a *decrease* in ice prices. Either way, ice products are a very small component of your overall POS fuel bill, and I doubt there would be a noticeable effect on T3 pricing.

In general, this CSM is very willing to listen to our experts in various fields. None of the changes are being thought about in isolation.

CSM 7 Secretary CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog

Barakkus
#56 - 2011-09-07 15:29:42 UTC
Aldarica wrote:
The Mittani wrote:
ok so in this thread i've got too much power, in the other thread i'm a powerless marketing shill of ccp

OH GOD SO CONFUSED

Of course you don't have power. I am pretty sure that CCP is laughing at you and your fellow CSM'ers as soon as you leave the room.

Cannot blame them, though.


This tbh. I personally laugh at them whenever they get all uppity and think they actually have any sway over anything.

http://youtu.be/yytbDZrw1jc

El'Niaga
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#57 - 2011-09-07 15:31:21 UTC
Ingvar Angst wrote:
Jita Alt666 wrote:
[quote=Jenshae Chiroptera]
Please list, right here, right now, 10 nerfs that have hit the WH community in the last 6 months. (That being the period of time that the current CSM has been active)


You don't need 10. There are two in discussion that would greatly cripple wormhole life.

1. Removal of ABC ores. As you may or may not know. wormholes are also null. More like deep-null with -1.0 sec status. As a result, wormholes have ABC ores. These are required in wormholes for the primary reason of T3 construction. You should, hopefully, be aware that minerals are required for the gas processing that goes into T3 components and hulls. Due to the logistical difficulties of moving large quantities of anything to and from holes, taking a required component from them would greatly and directly affect T3 production resulting in, without doubt, greater prices for Tengus, Lokis, etc. as some corps would give up bothering while others raise prices to cover the additional expense and headaches.

2. Removal of Ice from high sec. Ice. We love ice. We need ice. One thing wormholes don't have, though, is ice. Our pos' are dependent, like all are, on the fuels obtained from ice. If ice leave high sec, this will directly nerf wormholes by causing a significant increase in the cost of the fuels. As a result, smaller corps will find they can no longer afford to maintain their pos, while larger corps will need to find ways to offset the fuel cost hit. This will, undoubtedly, affect once again the one thing that wormholes do produce that no one else does... T3 ships and components.

It's simple to see, when you step back and look at the different areas of Eve and how they interconnect (as opposed to focusing solely on null, or high sec, etc.) how these changes would result in negative effects rippling throughout the game. The sad part is... they would do nothing to get people into null sec. People that prefer a wormhole frontier style life want nothing to do with the mega-alliance mafia style null sec lifestyle and visa versa. High sec folks like their game a little safer, a little smaller and are happy with the lower risk/reward style they're accustomed to. There are four sandboxes in Eve... high, low, null and Anoikis. If you take the sand out of any one box, people won't decide to go play in a different box. They'll leave their empty box and go home.


CCP doesn't understand a lot.

They can't force folks into 0.0 by nerfing other areas of the game. It won't work, never has and never will.

You have to make 0.0 enticing enough so they will come. When a 0.0 system barely supports a dozen folks at a time you can't get a large population into it. Fix that and everything else will take care of itself over time. Get it up to where these systems can support hundreds and the migration will start on its on.
Ingvar Angst
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
#58 - 2011-09-07 15:41:33 UTC
Two step wrote:

Firstly, people in w-space do have representation on the current CSM. I am a wormhole resident, Meissa spends some time in w-space, and Trebor has alts in a w-space corp. If you wanted more representation, you should have campaigned for me to get a full seat on the CSM during the last election.

As for your issues, nobody is talking about the complete removal of ABC from w-space. CCP suggested that they thought it was not fair for the best ores to be present in lower class wormholes (generally C1-C3), that usually have a direct k-space connection. This has by no means been decided, and your scare tactics about T3 prices rising is just that, a scare tactic. The amount of minerals used in T3 production is miniscule, and many T3s are already being built in empire anyway.

It is also not a given that moving ice to 0.0 would raise prices. We (on the CSM) haven't seen the specifics, but it is likely that mining rates would increase if and when ice was moved. This might result in a *decrease* in ice prices. Either way, ice products are a very small component of your overall POS fuel bill, and I doubt there would be a noticeable effect on T3 pricing.

In general, this CSM is very willing to listen to our experts in various fields. None of the changes are being thought about in isolation.


Wow, I'd ask which orifice you extracted that from, but I'm afraid the answer is obvious.

Why would it be "not fair" to have ABC ores in C1 through C3 holes? They're actually more dangerous to mine in than the higher (and harder to access) holes. Besides, even a C1 is a -1.0 sec status, lower than the "best" of null. You already can't get mercoxit in "lower" holes which is annoying enough and makes little sense. Not fair. Get real, you'll need a better excuse then that.

As far as ice... more mining if they remove it from high sec? Seriously? C'mon, quit pulling our legs... seriously? Prices dropping? Dude, suck on the teat of reality, will you? You increase the danger in mining ices, plus you increase to a huge degree the logistics in getting ice fuels to the high sec trade hubs, plus you decrease the actual number of miners...

Ice components are the sole source of our pos fuel bill. If you actually knew anything at all about wormholes you'd realize that. All other fuels are PI fuels that I make myself. As a matter of fact, I'm solely producing them with PI so my corp can focus their PI on whatever they want. 100% of our fuel cost is in ice fuels. Credibility at this point eludes you. So yes, if my fuel costs go up dramatically due to the cost of ice getting jacked up due to it's removal from high sec then yes, my T3 products, as well as anyone else in wormholes, will go up in price to make up for it. No scare tactics. Reality.

Six months in the hole... it changes a man.

Richard Hammond II
Doomheim
#59 - 2011-09-07 15:45:46 UTC
Vin Hellsing wrote:

If the game gets half of its features nerfed, or unbalanced, there's going to be a lot of people upset. This is the problem that Goonswarm does not seem to care


likely more true to fact mate

Goons; infiltration at its best - first bob... now ccp itself. They dont realize you guys dot take this as "just a game". Bring it down guys, we're rooting for you.

Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#60 - 2011-09-07 15:47:13 UTC
El'Niaga wrote:

They can't force folks into 0.0 by nerfing other areas of the game. It won't work, never has and never will.

Nerfing 0.0 has forced a lot of folks (and their alts) into hisec. Not sure why the reverse wouldn't hold.