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Vindicator

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hmskrecik
TransMine Group
Gluten Free Cartel
#21 - 2012-02-13 09:41:34 UTC
Tore Smith wrote:
- web is only a bonus for when you run merc missions. you wont hit frigs, even webbed! change it for another TC for other missions or an AB but than you have to downgrade the booster

I use fit almost equal to your, main difference being in rigs. Web is good for Angels too, and some Serps. And you *will* hit frigs. Just use Javelins, Luke (also 2x tracking script).

Quote:
- base sensor strenght is better than with the kronos, so guristas arent such a problem

Better but still not perfect. OTOH Guristas don't require to be webbed...

Quote:
- this setup wont tank a few of the harder missions easily, so be prepared

I'd say it can't tank *most* of harder missions. But so far I managed to kill majority before buffer run out. Aggro management is strict requirement though.
Tore Smith
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#22 - 2012-02-13 10:06:02 UTC
hmskrecik wrote:
I use fit almost equal to your, main difference being in rigs.

I would be very much interested in your rig choice... Care to share?

Quote:
Web is good for Angels too, and some Serps. And you *will* hit frigs. Just use Javelins, Luke (also 2x tracking script).

That’s actually a very good reminder. I totally forgot about the t2 ammo changes ...will definitely try Javelin next time around. Their +25% tracking might be the key, because atm I cannot hit Guristas webbers and similar even while using dual tracking scripted TCs, web and Antimatter charges.
Concerning Angels: I use a Mach or Varg for them, but sure, there a web makes sense. Do you run Blasters for Angels or do you stick with rails?

Quote:
Better but still not perfect. OTOH Guristas don't require to be webbed...

There are only a few Guristas missions I regularly get scrammed in, but they are blitzable...
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
Gluten Free Cartel
#23 - 2012-02-13 11:37:37 UTC
Tore Smith wrote:
hmskrecik wrote:
I use fit almost equal to your, main difference being in rigs.

I would be very much interested in your rig choice... Care to share?

Nothing special here. Just one Nano Pump and 2x CCC. This way I can have full rack of mids doing something useful: cap booster, 2x TC, sebo, utility.

Quote:
That’s actually a very good reminder. I totally forgot about the t2 ammo changes ...will definitely try Javelin next time around. Their +25% tracking might be the key, because atm I cannot hit Guristas webbers and similar even while using dual tracking scripted TCs, web and Antimatter charges.

Being honest, it's not that you will hit a frig every time. Those pests are best to shoot at on approach. When in orbit, by the time the web slows them down and guns score good enough hit you can kill a battleship or two. But it's still doable. That said I prefer to leave those buggers for drones.

Quote:
Concerning Angels: I use a Mach or Varg for them, but sure, there a web makes sense. Do you run Blasters for Angels or do you stick with rails?

Rails. I figured that even if Angels tend to go up close and personal they also tend to spawn quite away. I use blasters only for Damsel in Distress and there, oh boy, they pummel everything in sight.

Quote:
There are only a few Guristas missions I regularly get scrammed in, but they are blitzable...

I do missions for bounties thus I'm rather interested in getting at all of them. And web is not useful against Guristas in any way. When jamming is not an issue I replace it with Omni Track so drones get some fun too.
Riedle
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#24 - 2012-02-13 16:09:39 UTC
Any Vindi fit without a web is failfit for pve or pvp.
Batelle
Filthy Peasants
#25 - 2012-02-13 17:06:41 UTC
I don't really like any of the fits I see. I was thinking a neutron blaster fit with null ammo, 1 web, deadspace mwd (critical for the capcitor, not too expensive), deadspace LAR. Not sure if that leaves room for a cap booster.

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
Tenga Halaris
Galactic Traders Union
#26 - 2012-02-13 17:38:55 UTC
Why would a Blaster- Shield- Vindi need a webber? Alphakills frigs within 20 km. If something come through, just use your set of Small Drones.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#27 - 2012-02-13 19:10:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Tanya Powers
Belthazor4011 wrote:
Well its mainly designed for PVP combat, a lot of ships will do better for lvl 4 missions.

I presume you currently have a Mega or Navy Mega, fit wise it would not be much different it will just do a little more DPS.


Well not really except on EFT/Pyfa or if you're running all day long Vangard sites like a bot (just because web bonus)

In reality and using both you'll quite quickly see the Navy compared to Vindicator:

Navy is an excellent platform with tons of raw ehp without a single fitting item, excellent slot distribtution, miss top speed and accelleration ability just like every gallente brick.

Since you don't fit buffer but resists and it's for pve the regular energy rigs/mods will make your vidicator ridiculous because:

-frigs can be taken out with drones -ho crap Navy has drones too
-energy mods = less space (mids/lows) for gank/tank
-tracking bonus on mega makes it yummy and tracking for hybrids IS dps no matter what you might well read.

Actually for pvp or run Incursions (because lots of friends/logistics Blaster Vindicator IS a hell of a beast). At pve it's just a nerd 's toy.
Pick the mega, slap 1 T2 expo rig 1 T2+1T1 cap recharge rig, faction MWD WEB *random adapted to your skills*
Slap 2 faction EANP 1 faction/DED armor rep, 3 faction MFS, 7 T2 425mm pick Spike, faction AM and javelin, T2 drones
Add +5 tracking, +5 dmg all hybrids+5dmg large hybrids +armor/fitting implants

Run any Angel extavaganza/WC with both ships then make your self an idea but I'm already sure you'll finish with Navy mega.
The +dps on Vindicator is awesome with blasters and provided you are using your ship web bonus, slap 425mm on it without + tracking bonus of mega knowing you can't apply your web at far than 14km and you're commiting a hell of a crime.
Batelle
Filthy Peasants
#28 - 2012-02-13 19:44:09 UTC
Tanya Powers wrote:

-tracking bonus on mega makes it yummy and tracking for hybrids IS dps no matter what you might well read.


Vindicator has the same bonus

"**CCP is changing policy, and has asked that we discontinue the bonus credit program after November 7th. So until then, enjoy a super-bonus of 1B Blink Credit for each 60-day GTC you buy!"**

Never forget.
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
Gluten Free Cartel
#29 - 2012-02-13 19:44:24 UTC
In my experience Vindi performs slightly better in missions than Kronos. Not much though, difference boiling to choice whether you want to be more on the edge with former or have more comfortable fittings with latter. I haven't used Navy Mega long before Crucible patch but at that time it was slightly worse than Kronos. Maybe I should give it a try again.

Blasters or rails. Again, in my experience on average ISK/hr rails are slightly better. Yes, blasters own anything in range but to get into said range you need time and even with MWD it doesn't balance out. And it's quite absorbing to manage speed and targets comared to rails, which themselves sometimes make quite a clickfest.

Tracking was never an issue with 2 TCs if you don't mind juggling scripts in mid fight (I have simple rule of thumb: for targets closer than 36-40km I use 2x tracking, farther - 2x range). Even if some dps is lost for smaller targets mind you that you make most of your money from shooting battleships and here's where Vindi delivers.

Web bonus is very nice but only when it's reasonable to apply it. When most targets are at 30-40 km (Gurista missions) actually fitting a webber is epic fail. Actually is for most of missions. The only cases where it comes handy are missions with Angels, Mercs and about half of those with Serpentis.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#30 - 2012-02-13 20:21:46 UTC
hmskrecik wrote:
In my experience Vindi performs slightly better in missions than Kronos. Not much though, difference boiling to choice whether you want to be more on the edge with former or have more comfortable fittings with latter. I haven't used Navy Mega long before Crucible patch but at that time it was slightly worse than Kronos. Maybe I should give it a try again.

Blasters or rails. Again, in my experience on average ISK/hr rails are slightly better. Yes, blasters own anything in range but to get into said range you need time and even with MWD it doesn't balance out. And it's quite absorbing to manage speed and targets comared to rails, which themselves sometimes make quite a clickfest.

Tracking was never an issue with 2 TCs if you don't mind juggling scripts in mid fight (I have simple rule of thumb: for targets closer than 36-40km I use 2x tracking, farther - 2x range). Even if some dps is lost for smaller targets mind you that you make most of your money from shooting battleships and here's where Vindi delivers.

Web bonus is very nice but only when it's reasonable to apply it. When most targets are at 30-40 km (Gurista missions) actually fitting a webber is epic fail. Actually is for most of missions. The only cases where it comes handy are missions with Angels, Mercs and about half of those with Serpentis.


I'm surprised that the difference between rail and blaster vindi is only "slight". How long ago did you test this? Would you be willing to provide more details on that - things like fits and missions and such? Its not that I doubt you but its really unexpected.

I guess I could log onto the test server and try it out for myself... but then I'd be running missions...

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
sYnc Vir
Wolfsbrigade
Ghost Legion.
#31 - 2012-02-13 21:56:21 UTC
Kolya Medz wrote:
If you want to shield tank:

Lows:
4 Navy Magstabs
1 TE
1 coproccessor II
1 signal amp thingy (boosts targeting range to 81km)
Meds:
Large shield booster II
Shield boost amp II (Can be dropped for a TC or AB if you have crystals.)
3 mission specific hardners

Highs:
8 425mm Railgun IIs

Rigs:
2 CCC I
1 CCC II



A Vindy fit with no webs, why don't you just go jump into tama and get what you have coming. Idiot.

Don't ask about Italics, just tilt your head.
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
Gluten Free Cartel
#32 - 2012-02-13 22:00:20 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
I'm surprised that the difference between rail and blaster vindi is only "slight". How long ago did you test this? Would you be willing to provide more details on that - things like fits and missions and such? Its not that I doubt you but its really unexpected.

While I have no hard data on Vindi as I use it 99% of time with rails and remaining 1% being the Damsel mission, I have run some comparisons with Kronos and Proteus, with Kronos tests being after Crucible. In both cases it took me about 10-30% longer to complete given mission when using blasters.

I could be doing it wrong. Maybe. But even then blasters required much more attention and focus. My gues is even if performance was comparable, or better, for the same amount of work they are nowhere as effective so why bother?
Tore Smith
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#33 - 2012-02-14 09:24:19 UTC
sYnc Vir wrote:
Kolya Medz wrote:
If you want to shield tank:

Lows:
4 Navy Magstabs
1 TE
1 coproccessor II
1 signal amp thingy (boosts targeting range to 81km)
Meds:
Large shield booster II
Shield boost amp II (Can be dropped for a TC or AB if you have crystals.)
3 mission specific hardners

Highs:
8 425mm Railgun IIs

Rigs:
2 CCC I
1 CCC II



A Vindy fit with no webs, why don't you just go jump into tama and get what you have coming. Idiot.


This thread is about the PVE use of the vindi.

While I have a web fitted for a lot of missions, your statement is ignorant and misinformed. There are a lot of situations were a web is useless and should be replaced by e.g. ECCM or another TC.
Liam Mirren
#34 - 2012-02-14 11:24:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Liam Mirren
I've not flown vindi for PVE but have used a Kronos. Apart from a very select few obvious short range missions (Damsel) you're better off using rails, you apply your dps more of the time without being too deep in falloff or wasting tons of time MWDing over there. Using blasters in most missions is like using a Legion, it may be "fun" but it's not efficient.

Fitwise I'd opt for the AB, 2 TC, Fed Web, cap booster and 425s. The web helps your apply better dps against short orbiting BCs and they also help you out of trouble if you messed up and everything ended up short range, meaning you can get away with less tank.

Excellence is not a skill, it's an attitude.
The Djego
Hellequin Inc.
Mean Coalition
#35 - 2012-02-14 21:34:09 UTC  |  Edited by: The Djego
Well I wouldn't compare a close range fitted cruiser with 50km optimal with a blaster ship. However it is true that the pala is a lot quicker at medium range, sporting more than twice the DPS at 40km+ ranges.

If you mission in gallente or caldari space, you will have lots of issues with the Kronos(ECM + long lock time vs damps) and the Vindi(damps + getting in range again after losing the web on targets by the ecm).

I for myself prefer the Kronos(avoid any mission with ecm like the plague).

[Kronos, New Setup 1]
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
Federation Navy Magnetic Field Stabilizer
True Sansha Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
True Sansha Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane
Armor Explosive Hardener II
Large Armor Repairer II

Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
Tracking Computer II, Optimal Range
Cap Recharger II
Federation Navy Stasis Webifier

425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
425mm Railgun II, Antimatter Charge L
Small Tractor Beam II
Salvager II
Small Tractor Beam II

Large Hybrid Burst Aerator II
Large Capacitor Control Circuit I


Garde II x3
Hammerhead II x5

The Paladin, NM, Vargur or Mach are quicker. The golem to, if your micro fu is strong.

Improve discharge rigging: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=246166&find=unread
Riedle
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#36 - 2012-02-16 02:19:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Riedle
.
Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Horse Feathers
CAStabouts
#37 - 2012-02-16 04:29:12 UTC
Any rat but angels is a pain in its own way, honestly. Being jammed and damped sucks, but so does being neuted to death and having your guns reduced to the range of mediums and the tracking of XL.

thhief ghabmoef
hmskrecik
TransMine Group
Gluten Free Cartel
#38 - 2012-02-16 09:07:43 UTC
Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote:
Any rat but angels is a pain in its own way, honestly. Being jammed and damped sucks, but so does being neuted to death and having your guns reduced to the range of mediums and the tracking of XL.

Truth to be told, being painted in AE bonus is kind of service you also wish you haven't received too.
Roime
Shiva Furnace
#39 - 2012-02-16 09:18:03 UTC
Think of the children - save Vindicators from CCC rigs

Sad

.
Fronkfurter McSheebleton
Horse Feathers
CAStabouts
#40 - 2012-02-16 11:07:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Fronkfurter McSheebleton
hmskrecik wrote:
Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote:
Any rat but angels is a pain in its own way, honestly. Being jammed and damped sucks, but so does being neuted to death and having your guns reduced to the range of mediums and the tracking of XL.

Truth to be told, being painted in AE bonus is kind of service you also wish you haven't received too.

Well yeah...especially if you're in a T3 or something, but it doesn't make THAT much difference compared to the others, which actually hamper you ship's operation...

thhief ghabmoef
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