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Skill Que Tweak
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mxzf
Shovel Bros
#21 - 2012-02-06 17:05:28 UTC
Nikk Narrel wrote:
If it's not broken, don't fix it.


This is actually a very good thing to stick with when it comes to Eve. When you've been around long enough, you'll realize that when devs start messing with stuff that isn't broken, they end up breaking it. Most of us would prefer to keep the current system that works well rather than risking the devs screwing stuff up just for a possible minor improvement.

With this thread though, it's not really an improvement anyways, just dumbing it down for people who have Alzheimers about their skill queue, so it's definitely not worth changing at all.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#22 - 2012-02-06 17:07:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Yes, it works well. Rephrasing that into a cliche: If it's not broken, don't fix it.

The improvements on many things, quite often, are made despite the previous versions working well. But improving the product, keeping it competitive and growing, is what keeps a game alive.

The status quo can be improved. None of us play this game because we NEED to. We can make it better in ways that give more people a better experience playing it.
There is only one problem, it's not an improvement. It's a back handed lengthening of the queue, which is neither required or needed.

Nikk Narrel wrote:
Mag's wrote:
If the people he's talking about have issues with the current queue, then they'll have plenty wasted SP with all those partly trained level 5 with his changes. Lol

Wow. You handed me that, so allow me to politely say thank you.

What makes you think that they do NOT already have wasted points, because they tried training a long skill over a vacation or other absence, rather than the skill they actually wanted that would not fit in the que due to level breaks?

How many times has someone chosen to train something, rather than have an idle que, despite the fact they were training a skill they had no use for?

Your a clever fellow Mag's. Good bringing that to my attention. And again, I thank you.
You missed the point quite nicely. I even enlarged on it in a previous reply to you, but thanks for bring this back to the fore.

They will have actual wasted points scattered all over. Unlike the situation now, where you focus on one skill. Blink

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#23 - 2012-02-06 17:11:32 UTC
mxzf wrote:
Nikk Narrel wrote:
If it's not broken, don't fix it.


This is actually a very good thing to stick with when it comes to Eve. When you've been around long enough, you'll realize that when devs start messing with stuff that isn't broken, they end up breaking it. Most of us would prefer to keep the current system that works well rather than risking the devs screwing stuff up just for a possible minor improvement.

With this thread though, it's not really an improvement anyways, just dumbing it down for people who have Alzheimers about their skill queue, so it's definitely not worth changing at all.

Ever hear people talk about the GPS tools some cars have, or people bought for their cars specifically or by using their cell phones?

They did not start all driving after these tools appeared, they got by before them quite well. Just not as well as they did afterwards.

The GPS was not needed in cars. Making cars more user friendly by having them as an option now has 100% availability in most places. If the car doesn't have one, you can use a store bought one, or again your cell phone.

Improvements, making life easier is quite widely regarded as making life better. EVE can always be better, and you can say that while still admiring it as it is now. Their is no contradiction there.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Velicitia
XS Tech
#24 - 2012-02-06 17:12:56 UTC
I still have loads of half-trained things from before the skillqueue days ... it's pretty bad, actually.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#25 - 2012-02-06 19:16:31 UTC
Velicitia wrote:
I still have loads of half-trained things from before the skillqueue days ... it's pretty bad, actually.

That makes perfect sense. Using the basic logic that any skill being trained is better than no skill being trained, this would happen quite often.

Another glitch is that you cannot inject a skill before a prereq meets the needed level, so I would just stuff a skill into the que that would fill the space until I could log back in, and put the skill I really wanted into training.

I bet that happens a LOT. If people are lucky, and need multiple skills, they can still get use out of the skill que for other needed skills.

An autoloading skill planner would be a step beyond this. It would require you to at least inject skills once you qualified, putting their skill position on hold and training the next available skill until you did.

Based on that, you could export skill plans from EVE Mon, like you do ship fits from EFT Tool.

As I expect people would object, saying that would make it too easy, I am not pushing for that.

You would have paid accounts inactive for months, while the characters chugged through long skill plans. Oh sure, People would log in periodically to inject skills, but for the most part, it would be just CCP collecting money on accounts with little activity.

I am just suggesting something to auto-que the next level of a skill you already have training. Nothing fancy.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Tidurious
Blatant Alt Corp
#26 - 2012-02-06 19:42:34 UTC
The skill queue is perfect as is, and needs no changes/tweaking.

-1
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#27 - 2012-02-06 20:16:05 UTC
Tidurious wrote:
The skill queue is perfect as is, and needs no changes/tweaking.

-1

No, it works adequately for what we accept having the ability to do.

Perfect would mean any player could achieve any balance of skill training, and be able to miss weeks at a time if they wanted or needed to.
I am NOT advocating for perfect, as too many have voiced their opinion about liking obstacles, and enjoying their own unique ability to overcome these obstacles to their advantage. That is human nature, and nothing to be ashamed of.

This is one step more convenient, not a huge change as I outlined a couple of replies earlier.

It is more than likely you will not be affected, or else you would not defend the status quo, by describing it as perfect.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Mag's
Azn Empire
#28 - 2012-02-06 20:26:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
It works as it's meant to work and it does it very well.

ad·e·quate: sufficient - enough - suitable - appropriate. In other words, right for the task.

We are not talking RL equipment here, we are talking about a game mechanic and it's balance. Blink

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#29 - 2012-02-06 22:33:56 UTC
Mag's wrote:
It works as it's meant to work and it does it very well.

ad·e·quate: sufficient - enough - suitable - appropriate. In other words, right for the task.

We are not talking RL equipment here, we are talking about a game mechanic and it's balance. Blink

To do it very well would mean it exceeds expectations. No, I am conceding only that it meets expectations.

Here is a more specific definition.
able to fulfil a need or requirement without being abundant, outstanding, etc.
[from Latin adaequāre to equalize, from ad- to + aequus equal]
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/adequate

This is your C grade solution. I feel you are expressing pride in it's performance, beyond what it merits. It works, it does not do anything beyond what is needed.

I am offering an upgrade to a B grade solution. It does everything the previous solution does, except obstructs players less who are more often presented with difficulties updating their que.

I appreciate you feel this is a fair mechanic, and you feel you deserve to have this advantage over those who would be affected by this proposed change. That is nothing to be ashamed of either, it is giving you an edge in competing with these particular players, and beating someone in a competition oriented system feels good.

I present this also as a tribute to your abilities, in that your competition needs all the help they can get to give you a worthy challenge.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Mag's
Azn Empire
#30 - 2012-02-07 02:27:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Nikk Narrel wrote:
To do it very well would mean it exceeds expectations. No, I am conceding only that it meets expectations.

Here is a more specific definition.
able to fulfil a need or requirement without being abundant, outstanding, etc.
[from Latin adaequāre to equalize, from ad- to + aequus equal]
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/adequate

This is your C grade solution. I feel you are expressing pride in it's performance, beyond what it merits. It works, it does not do anything beyond what is needed.

I am offering an upgrade to a B grade solution. It does everything the previous solution does, except obstructs players less who are more often presented with difficulties updating their que.
You seem to be missing the point, it does it well and it's within balance for the game. Hence why CCP ended up with just 24 hours in the queue. Any changes you've suggested, make it unbalanced.

Nikk Narrel wrote:
I appreciate you feel this is a fair mechanic, and you feel you deserve to have this advantage over those who would be affected by this proposed change. That is nothing to be ashamed of either, it is giving you an edge in competing with these particular players, and beating someone in a competition oriented system feels good.

I present this also as a tribute to your abilities, in that your competition needs all the help they can get to give you a worthy challenge.
Am I meant to take this seriously? Roll

You've almost run through the whole gamut of bad excuses and poor reasoning, of why this idea should be allowed. Congrats.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Nestara Aldent
Citimatics
#31 - 2012-02-07 03:00:13 UTC
Quote:


Personally, I can only think of "Tactical Shield Manipulation" ... and even there, it's a stretch with having the skill to L5 being "questionable" at best.

Please name any additional skills where L5 is "wasted" SP for a pilot.


Jury rigging to 5.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#32 - 2012-02-07 14:50:08 UTC
Mag's wrote:
You seem to be missing the point, it does it well and it's within balance for the game. Hence why CCP ended up with just 24 hours in the queue. Any changes you've suggested, make it unbalanced.

You have an extremely narrow view of balance, which seems to be based exclusively on people having no control beyond 24 hours. This degree of change would not impact you at all...

UNLESS you feel it would give others some unperceived advantage, which you wish to deny them. I have no idea what this advantage is, since it exclusively would auto-que the next level of a currently training ability only.
This leaves only the people it would affect: those who for whatever reason want to commit to training a specific skill, and cannot log in to update the que at the 24 hour time window where it could be qued manually.
You want them to either compromise to a skill they care less about, in order to train anything for the full time period they will be away, or have an idle que.

Your argument leaves no other interpretation.

Mag's wrote:
Am I meant to take this seriously? Roll

You've almost run through the whole gamut of bad excuses and poor reasoning, of why this idea should be allowed. Congrats.

Actually, your declaration that it represents bad excuses and poor reasoning is mostly supported only by your opinion, possibly a couple of others of a similar mindset as well.

In case you missed it, every single post pointing out a skill that had points trained into it, that the player felt were useless and unneeded, backs my point on this idea.

These are the people who wanted to train a more useful skill, but the current system denied them that.

Your argument, by proxy, has devolved into saying denying others based on this detail is fair.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
mxzf
Shovel Bros
#33 - 2012-02-07 16:30:22 UTC
What're the odds running on time-to-Godwin's Law ATM?

Right now the 'discussion' seems to boil down to "It's a great system that works perfectly and shouldn't be changed" and "But that's not fair!".
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#34 - 2012-02-07 16:51:33 UTC
mxzf wrote:
What're the odds running on time-to-Godwin's Law ATM?

Right now the 'discussion' seems to boil down to "It's a great system that works perfectly and shouldn't be changed" and "But that's not fair!".

Nah, it's nothing so extreme.

My suggested tweak won't affect anyone able to use the current system by logging in reliably whenever they want for any 24 hour period.

For people who can't log in every day, it just gives them a chance to commit to a skill more cleanly, and not be penalized for possible RL issues more than is necessary.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Mag's
Azn Empire
#35 - 2012-02-07 23:20:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Nikk Narrel wrote:
You have an extremely narrow view of balance, which seems to be based exclusively on people having no control beyond 24 hours. This degree of change would not impact you at all...

UNLESS you feel it would give others some unperceived advantage, which you wish to deny them. I have no idea what this advantage is, since it exclusively would auto-que the next level of a currently training ability only.
This leaves only the people it would affect: those who for whatever reason want to commit to training a specific skill, and cannot log in to update the que at the 24 hour time window where it could be qued manually.
You want them to either compromise to a skill they care less about, in order to train anything for the full time period they will be away, or have an idle que.

Your argument leaves no other interpretation.
My view of balance, is the same as CCP's. I view 24 hours as being balanced in regards to the skill queue and guess what? So does CCP.
It works well and doesn't allow for excessive queue times It does however, allow for players to fill it to 23 hours 59 minutes. Then add a longer skill to take it to days, or even weeks.

Also, as much as you'd like (and tried) for this argument to become personal, It's not about me. It's about game balance and your interpretation is way off the mark.

Nikk Narrel wrote:
Actually, your declaration that it represents bad excuses and poor reasoning is mostly supported only by your opinion, possibly a couple of others of a similar mindset as well.

In case you missed it, every single post pointing out a skill that had points trained into it, that the player felt were useless and unneeded, backs my point on this idea.

These are the people who wanted to train a more useful skill, but the current system denied them that.

Your argument, by proxy, has devolved into saying denying others based on this detail is fair.
I didn't say it represents bad excuses and poor reasoning. I said you've almost run through using the whole gamut of them, believing they somehow legitimise your idea.

For example:

  • Comparing the improvement of RL gadgets, with the changing of game mechanics.
  • The idea that even though the people you're aiming to help can't use the queue in it's present form (apparently), they will somehow use this new system well.
  • Your assertion that I'm somehow better off than others, because of a queue that accessible to all. Then because of this reasoning, you conclude that's actually why I'm against it.
  • The retort that my view on balance is somehow narrow, even though it's perfectly in line with the game owners and the majority of players.


Maybe you could point me to the posts, of people complaining about the queue stopping them training a useful skill. You claim these posts back up your idea after all, so it shouldn't be hard.

My not liking this idea, is based on the fact that the queue works as intended and is balanced.
You wanting this idea, is based on people not using the current one correctly and jumping to the conclusion this somehow means it needs changing.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Kiroma Halandri
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#36 - 2012-02-07 23:31:27 UTC
I get what the problem is. You people are all afraid of change.
[center]I'm not Anti-Social,    **I just don't like you.[/center]**
Mag's
Azn Empire
#37 - 2012-02-07 23:34:16 UTC
Kiroma Halandri wrote:
I get what the problem is. You people are all afraid of change.
I know what your problem is, you can't read and/or comprehend.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#38 - 2012-02-07 23:42:41 UTC
Mag's wrote:
My view of balance, is the same as CCP's. I view 24 hours as being balanced in regards to the skill queue and guess what? So does CCP.
It works well and doesn't allow for excessive queue times It does however, allow for players to fill it to 23 hours 59 minutes. Then add a longer skill to take it to days, or even weeks.

Also, as much as you'd like (and tried) for this argument to become personal, It's not about me. It's about game balance and your interpretation is way off the mark.

Actually not trying so much for the personal aspect, as for anything to justify your defense of the status quo.

Your point, lacking that motivation, then drops to being: It is not broken to me, or others I am concerned with.

Based on this philosophy, even an obvious improvement such as this, would by your perspective, be unbalanced.

I believe you described it as such already.

All it does, is that in some cases where people want a specific skill, they can train that skill rather than a time filler skill they have less interest in. And the conditions are simply that they would not be around to update their que in a 24 hour period.

Mag's wrote:
I didn't say it represents bad excuses and poor reasoning. I said you've almost run through the whole gamut of them, believing they somehow legitimise your idea.

For example:

  • Comparing the improvement of RL gadgets, with the changing of game mechanics.
  • The idea that even though the people you're aiming to help can't use the queue in it's present form (apparently), they will somehow use this new system well.
  • Your assertion that I'm somehow better off than others, because of a queue that accessible to all. Then because of this reasoning, you conclude that's actually why I'm against it.
  • The retort that my view on balance is somehow narrow, even though it's perfectly in line with the game owners and the majority of players.


Maybe you could point me to the posts, of people complaining about the queue stopping them training a useful skill. You claim these posts back up your idea after all, so it shouldn't be hard.

My not liking this idea, is based on the fact that the queue works as intended and is balanced.
You wanting this idea, is based on people not using the current one correctly and jumping to the conclusion this somehow means it needs changing.

Devolving into meaningless details I used to illustrate a point, is pointless. You can scroll up in the thread and see these posts yourself.
I am sure some of them are just describing skills useless to the pilot, and may not actually confess training them rather than idle que. But they are rather specific, and many have resorted to filler skills rather than let a que go idle, regardless of whether they posted here.

It is still a useful idea, that breaks nothing, and will help a lot of players at least once.

It's almost like you are trying to say nothing in the game needs change or improvement.

This forum proves CCP is open to ideas, enough to solicit them.

Upgrading Local to Eliminate All AFK Influence What if Local Chat changed, Hunting the Cloaked...
Mag's
Azn Empire
#39 - 2012-02-08 01:15:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Nikk Narrel wrote:
Based on this philosophy, even an obvious improvement such as this, would by your perspective, be unbalanced.

I believe you described it as such already.
It's not an improvement and you've posted nothing to make me think otherwise.

Nikk Narrel wrote:
All it does, is that in some cases where people want a specific skill, they can train that skill rather than a time filler skill they have less interest in. And the conditions are simply that they would not be around to update their que in a 24 hour period.
It is in fact, an increase to the queue length.

Nikk Narrel wrote:
Devolving into meaningless details I used to illustrate a point, is pointless.
I was merely highlighting the poor arguments you were trying to use, in defence of this idea.

Nikk Narrel wrote:
You can scroll up in the thread and see these posts yourself.
I am sure some of them are just describing skills useless to the pilot, and may not actually confess training them rather than idle que. But they are rather specific, and many have resorted to filler skills rather than let a que go idle, regardless of whether they posted here.
You stated that there were posts in this regard and they backed your point on this idea. I just wanted you to point them out.

Nikk Narrel wrote:
It is still a useful idea, that breaks nothing, and will help a lot of players at least once.

It's almost like you are trying to say nothing in the game needs change or improvement.
It breaks balance, by increasing the queue length.

And no, it's actually that I'm saying the queue is balanced and in no need of a change. Nice strawman though.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#40 - 2012-02-08 13:45:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Velicitia
Nestara Aldent wrote:
Quote:


Personally, I can only think of "Tactical Shield Manipulation" ... and even there, it's a stretch with having the skill to L5 being "questionable" at best.

Please name any additional skills where L5 is "wasted" SP for a pilot.


Jury rigging to 5.


Unfortunately, you're late to the party Nestara. That was already mentioned (and corrected) on the first page.

Only skills thus far are Industrial Construction and Battleship Construction.


Quote:

That makes perfect sense. Using the basic logic that any skill being trained is better than no skill being trained, this would happen quite often.


TBH, it's more of "oh, wait... you don't need to shield AND armour tank something". The skills are all needed, but I ended up deciding that hull tanking was the way to go Cool. I'm fleshing out the shield tank skills now, but it's been a long time that many of these have been halfway to 3 or 4, because they were completely unnecessary.

Quote:
Another glitch is that you cannot inject a skill before a prereq meets the needed level, so I would just stuff a skill into the que that would fill the space until I could log back in, and put the skill I really wanted into training.

I bet that happens a LOT. If people are lucky, and need multiple skills, they can still get use out of the skill que for other needed skills.

Actually, this is a "working as intended" feature. It's so you cannot inject a skill, and then apply "bonus SP" (i.e. what we got from the learning skill removal) to a skill before the prereqs are met. It's the simplest solution to keep people from gaming the system (because you know the players would).

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia