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Eve versus Star Trek

Author
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#101 - 2012-03-01 21:47:23 UTC
TV show wise, Star Treck wouldnt win or be close to winning.

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Jhagiti Tyran
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#102 - 2012-03-02 00:32:45 UTC
Merin Ryskin wrote:
Jhagiti Tyran wrote:
I am not even that into Star Trek any more so I am certainly not a fan boy, I just have to keep laughing at your attempts at making any old **** up.


If by "making any old **** up" you mean "posting clips from the actual movie, not fanboy wishful thinking about what it 'should' have been"...

Quote:
If someone posted a "biplanes Vs Star Trek" thread you would come up with some way the machine gun bullets would get sucked into the engines or something similar.


Actually the holodeck would become sentient, causing a quantum subspace radiation wave that inversely polarizes the frequency of the deflector dish, resulting in a temporal subspace anomaly that makes the warp core self destruct. With a 15 minute timer counting down until the inevitable loss of the ship. Meanwhile Picard, instead of dealing with the crisis, stares out the window at the biplane (which is happily unaware that one of its stray bullets caused the whole mess) and mourns the tragedy of the war which put machine guns on it in the first place.


(If only post-TOS writing was that good.)

Quote:
Besides if both ships relative speeds are what matters how the feck does that = slower than EVE. You can either keep making **** up about how things appear (when theres no way to judge actual velocity) or you can take the more modest estimates of speed. I don't agree with the 1/4 light speed all the time idea myself but you refuse to even try and compromise,


The point is that even though Star Trek ships (like EVE ships) are capable of extremely high speeds, they don't seem to be very good at fighting at relative speeds that high. Just like EVE ships and their warp drives, Star Trek ships consistently have to slow down to laughably slow relative speeds before firing.


Quote:
I will accept that at low ranges many types of Eve weapons will cause massive damage if you can explain a mechanism by which said ship intends to get in range of a ship which has a sublight drive capable of 75mil m/s


I already told you: by entering orbit around earth (and the homeworld of every other faction) and beginning orbital bombardment of civilian targets. The Star Trek ship can run away all it wants, but every second it isn't sitting at point blank range and low speed next to the EVE ship results in another few million civilian deaths. Eventually, the Star Trek ship's captain will have to either engage within the EVE's ship's ability to return fire, or concede the complete extermination of every single populated world in the Star Trek universe.

Not that it would come to that, of course. The Federation has no tolerance for the realities of war, and the order to surrender unconditionally would follow within minutes of the first orbital strikes. With a clear policy of massive retaliation in place, any captain who stubbornly refused to obey the surrender order would find himself under the guns of his fellow officers long before any EVE ships would be involved.


Why are you still posting? You lost to space magic.
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#103 - 2012-03-02 01:24:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Nova Fox
Another reason why star treck would lose.

Pod capsuleeers cant die.

Starship federation officers do.

Also last i checked the federation only had what? 1 shipyard?

Finally books aside, why does it seem that every possible reference to demonstrate this extreme range you proclaim has never been exhibited not only the tv shows but the games as well?

phaser range seems much more closer to 2kms. photon torpdeos never seem to warp and in reality the warp drive star trek uses has been disqualified as not even remotely possible becuase that requires space to be absolutely empty which it isnt.

doenst help there are absoltuely 0 youtube videos of these 'long range battles' either a true testament to the non existence to the range. Screw cinimatics. Battlestar pulled off a 200km apart battle just fine.

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Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
#104 - 2012-03-02 02:08:27 UTC
Nova Fox wrote:
Finally books aside, why does it seem that every possible reference to demonstrate this extreme range you proclaim has never been exhibited not only the tv shows but the games as well?


Well, most of the games at least. The rules for Starfleet Battles/Starfleet Command explicitly state that the ship models are scaled up so they're visually interesting (true-scale ships would be just a single pixel), and that ships fight at warp speed. A single range unit in those games is 10,000km, with range 0-1 being point-blank range where weapons automatically hit and do splash damage to your own ship, anything under about range 10 being close enough to deliver reasonable amounts of firepower, and maximum weapon ranges of 50-100.

Too bad we got all of the boring post-TOS Star Trek instead of new shows based on the SFB universe...
Jhagiti Tyran
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#105 - 2012-03-02 02:13:47 UTC
Nova Fox wrote:
doenst help there are absoltuely 0 youtube videos of these 'long range battles' either a true testament to the non existence to the range. Screw cinimatics. Battlestar pulled off a 200km apart battle just fine.


Voyager firing Phasers at 2000km
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
#106 - 2012-03-02 02:54:24 UTC
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#107 - 2012-03-02 03:37:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Nova Fox
... that was a battlecruiser on carrier sized ship in eve at well within blaster ranges.

Also shields in star trek how do they work?

Best thoerist say its paritcle based for various reasons which opens a crap ton of bypasses.

Also may I mention that whoever designed federation (or any star trek ship) isnt military minded at ALL?

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Jhagiti Tyran
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#108 - 2012-03-02 04:48:31 UTC
Merin Ryskin wrote:


See how awkward you are, Voyager is clearly closing on the Kazon ship at thousands of KM/sec and starts firing after the range was called at 2000KM and continued firing as it passed.

This is why its stupid arguing with you as you just make **** up.
Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
#109 - 2012-03-02 05:18:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Merin Ryskin
Jhagiti Tyran wrote:
See how awkward you are, Voyager is clearly closing on the Kazon ship at thousands of KM/sec and starts firing after the range was called at 2000KM and continued firing as it passed.


So, let me get this straight: Voyager is closing at thousands of kilometers per second, opens fire, and then comes to a complete stop at point blank range just in time for the exterior shot, for no apparent reason. The closing speed that is shown in that clip (and all speeds later on in the fight) are much, much lower, and the ranges are less than a ship length.

If Voyager is capable of fighting effectively at 2000km+ range and 1000km/s+ speed, why is that only a tiny percentage of the battle (at most)?


Alternative explanation: the character reading out the ranges meant to say either "2000 meters" or "2 kilometers' (it would hardly be the first time someone mis-spoke in the middle of a stressful situation), which fits much better with what we actually see happening in the battle.
Jhagiti Tyran
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#110 - 2012-03-02 05:26:38 UTC
Merin Ryskin wrote:
Jhagiti Tyran wrote:
See how awkward you are, Voyager is clearly closing on the Kazon ship at thousands of KM/sec and starts firing after the range was called at 2000KM and continued firing as it passed.


So, let me get this straight: Voyager is closing at thousands of kilometers per second, opens fire, and then comes to a complete stop at point blank range just in time for the exterior shot, for no apparent reason. The closing speed that is shown in that clip (and all speeds later on in the fight) are much, much lower, and the ranges are less than a ship length.

If Voyager is capable of fighting effectively at 2000km+ range and 1000km/s+ speed, why is that only a tiny percentage of the battle (at most)?


Alternative explanation: the character reading out the ranges meant to say either "2000 meters" or "2 kilometers' (it would hardly be the first time someone mis-spoke in the middle of a stressful situation), which fits much better with what we actually see happening in the battle.


Making **** up again, either suck it and accept it or keep making **** up. I don't care, your dumb and I am done with this silly thread.

Hint to the clueless, see that but when I said am done with the thread? That means I am done, I bet you keep posting and try replying.
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#111 - 2012-03-02 05:38:20 UTC
He's not done his title of trekkie is at stake.

Also for a ship to fire at the ranges hes claiming it needs to be 8kms long apature capable of handeling the heat dispersion. So in a true design warship that would be soemthing the size of a titan maybe? and that is not even a turreted system.

Im sorry but throwing photons out that far is much less feasible than throwing warp drives at each other. I am more inclinded to belive photon (which is acutally an anti-matter reactor warhead according to you trekkies that have the technical bible) has the multi kilometer range.

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Merin Ryskin
Peregrine Industries
#112 - 2012-03-02 06:24:29 UTC
Jhagiti Tyran wrote:
Hint to the clueless, see that but when I said am done with the thread? That means I am done, I bet you keep posting and try replying.


And I bet you come right back to respond to this with more claims about your imaginary "Star Trek" that has nothing to do with what is actually shown on screen.

The only question here is whether you'll post just to whine about how I replied to your "IM LEAVING I WIN" post, or whether you'll just quietly show up again and pretend this never happened.
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#113 - 2012-03-02 06:34:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Nova Fox
Now then

Your super computer is an idiot trekkies, It was explained by photon torpedos have to mix their reactive warhead for at least 1 second and this is a visual consistently though out the entire series that when the targets are alot closer the warhead seems to go alot SLOWER to allow enough time to mix the reaciton. If your super computer cant slave in a phaser to slice that warhead in half wtf? wtf are you still using effing missiles for if it CANT EFFING TRACK A WARP DRIVE THAT CLOSE? Highly accurate lasers and smarter computers killed the carriers in honor harrigton series for the longest time in space warfare.

I mean seriously a warp drive is screamingly bloody mary on the the 'noise' level sensor wise within star treks own universe, eve hasn't demonstrate the technology but microwarp drives are massively noisy as well.

Also if its 30 isotonns why doesnt it do city scale destruction after punching though ship armor? Having nuke punch though the armor and go off is a kill shot and its been well proven that star trek ships have some pertty pathetic armor even on thier 'war ships.'

Movies have no excuse to say well its not in the budget or that nonesense.
Im sorry but your directors where not creative enough to show interesting fights at such long ranges. A battlestar in the newest series was shoveling out with three base star in the first episode about 200kms out away from each other, thier distances are extremly much further apart than anything ever visually dictated in star trek ever and unlike star trek a battlestar doesnt magically dodge a missile and has consistenly showned that the mk1 eyeball is good enough to shoot down a missile.

Another thing I have yet to see the lucky kill shot in star trek that involves popping the interia stab mid break neck intant pancakes speeds.

Also shields in trek are significnatly weaker and more vunerable and are particle based. Also somone else has been an idiot and not designed radio active weapons that have clearly shown to go though trek shields.

Ill also state it again nobody miltiary minded has ever designed a real warship in star trek, not the romulans not the klingons and definetly not the defiant.

Also if trek sensors are so freaking accurate and working well why in the hell cloaks still work? After 40 years of contact with the technology as well.

Ultimately every time a trek goes into battle in the series people should have died in droves every time the shields dropped adnt hey got nailed they have way to many living spaces and didnt internally armored thier insides or actively SHIELD them either. Its a miracle thier super computer is smart enough to keep air inside god forbid they lose power with these not so good blast doors ajar.

Then electronic warfare? Why hasnt anyone done shield harmonics or counter harmonics? I am pertty sure most ST ships have a sig radius more massive than the ship itself where as most eve ships have passive stealthing until you get to the capitol classes.

Also if the federation where to fight eve all we have to do is ram into them.

You also forget the cyno field generation tech eve has.

And also note that there are alot of other technologies not mentioned yet thats in use in eve that would make trekkies go hmmmm. Caldari for example use black hole reactors similar to your romulans and the reactors in eve are in multiples and in more number so it really begs the question is how much standarization of measuring units we lost in the last 15k years in eve?

Who light year is it we're using? Whos AU, is our km correct? slew of other things that may not exactly survived three resets ( (three dark ages) in new eden.

Next up we could go hyper hypothetical bringing in eve's terrans in but that would make you trekkies cry.

I mean if a battleship sized weapon can sink 18kms of warship in a single shot along with her escorting tonnages I can see what it would do to the federations only shipyard.

and ultimately we're immortal and we can afford to be bigger assholes. How many federation ships would survive survie a thorax kinetic missile slamming into it. slamming an entire titan into los angeles at warp speed. I know lighting off a cyno in the atmosphere that would really screw earth's day up and even better remass the ship on another colonized planet.

Finally Stars are quite capable of killing trek ships, why in the hell thier 'more powerful' phasers cant?

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#114 - 2012-03-02 09:44:32 UTC
Jhagiti Tyran wrote:
Nova Fox wrote:
doenst help there are absoltuely 0 youtube videos of these 'long range battles' either a true testament to the non existence to the range. Screw cinimatics. Battlestar pulled off a 200km apart battle just fine.


Voyager firing Phasers at 2000km


Looks less than 2000m to me and the speed is much slower than my megathron moves at when in combat.
Alpheias
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#115 - 2012-03-02 15:12:59 UTC
Khanh'rhh wrote:
Alpheias wrote:
Pfft.

All it takes is a meeting that reaches the agreement to cancel the current iteration of Star Trek and you are safe. Roll


I dunno man, the mere suggestion that someone might want to wear jeans worth $1000 nearly ended the whole eve universe Lol


"With great power comes great responsibility" - Voltaire

Agent of Chaos, Sower of Discord.

Don't talk to me unless you are IQ verified and certified with three references from non-family members. Please have your certificate of authenticity on hand.

Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#116 - 2012-03-02 16:48:02 UTC
Merin Ryskin wrote:
Jhagiti Tyran wrote:
Because you have cyborg supervision and can judge relative speeds of objects, in space and with no sense of scale to judge anything by.


As I've said before, I'm talking about relative speed. As in ship A and ship B can both be moving at 9999999999999999m/s, but their speed relative to each other (what matters for accuracy) is still extremely low.


ANDDDD here is the winner.

Because for that to be true, both ships would need to be capable of 9999999999999999m/s to begin with. Trek ships can do this, Eve ships cannot.

Bazinga.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#117 - 2012-03-02 16:49:32 UTC
Oh, and you have still ignored the evidence of ships actually fighting at warp speeds.

You can link me 5000 videos of them not doing so, but unless you can discredit the fact they CAN ACTUALLY IF THEY WANT TO then Trek ships will ALWAYS be able to gain range if they want to.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#118 - 2012-03-02 16:55:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Khanh'rhh
Merin, for your argument to make sense, we would need to accept that every time anyone has ever mentioned the speed they are travelling at, the distance they are firing to or any measurement anywhere, at any point in Trek's history, was a mistake.

Also, you will need an in-cannon explanation as to how, given these factor-of-1000 errors at every turn, any ship simply hasn't slammed into the other (since, you know, there's a vast difference between closing at 20,000km to 20,000m)

Or, the counter argument is "that wouldn't look right on screen, so they're visually closer with respect to SFX"

To accept the first statement is a giant removal from the universe, to accept the latter is an obvious logical step.

Only, it would make Eve "lose" ... wouldn't it?

Who is the fanboy here? The person linking direct evidence from the material, or the person stacking endless suppositions on top of one another to make it work?

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#119 - 2012-03-02 17:10:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Nova Fox
It didnt look like light speed to me.... light was still visible.

Also distances are based on visuals present both in real life which is pertty close eve's representing ship visual distances. frigates 10kms off are small as dots smilar to massive boeing 747s at similar distances.

From that alone and the size of the average ship in star trek most fights are visually represented within METERS of each other. Not Megameters not kilometers. meters.

Closest Ive seen in eve visually to what star treck has often is a battlecruise 3kms off the bow of a 1km long battleship.

To get a visual similary in eve with said ships would require them to be about 500 meters from each other.

Also star trek over designs reliance on shields. If I was a star battelship captain I be nailing bridges and breaking the nacels off and would have multiple attack vectors as star trecks obviously thinks that having resassinable shields is an advantage in which in a military situtation is utterly stupider. I also wouldnt have 1 fire control where a percise shot would take out all of my weapons.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#120 - 2012-03-02 17:54:11 UTC
Khanh'rhh wrote:
Oh, and you have still ignored the evidence of ships actually fighting at warp speeds.

You can link me 5000 videos of them not doing so, but unless you can discredit the fact they CAN ACTUALLY IF THEY WANT TO then Trek ships will ALWAYS be able to gain range if they want to.


Show me a ST ship shooting something while in warp at a target that is going sub light speeds on a regular basis.