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New Caldari Player - Skill Plan Help (And Questions)
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Shi'on Uzuki
Doomheim
#1 - 2012-02-05 04:55:40 UTC
Hey everybody,

I just started playing after a friend of mine recommended the game to me. (Insert paragraph about how cool and deep EVE Online is here).

I really want to break into PvP and I'm trying to decide on a skill plan to get me there without ignoring missions for money generation. My coworker has talked to me about training this and training that numerous times, but I'm not 100% sure why things are the way he describes them and if he's even correct (he's been known to exaggerate a little). I want to run them by other people who play and see if you can shed some light on the obvious questions and tell me if this is plausible at all. Here's some notes I picked up from watching him play the game and what he talks about:

1) Social skills are important for faction standings.
2) Missions are important for money and loyalty points for occasionally cheaper stuff.
c) The money from missions is only a tenth of the total income. Salvage is important and make up the bulk of your earnings.
4) Mining and industry take just as long to effectively skill up to for profitability as a full PvP skill plan.
5) Caldari > All*

That being said, I don't think social skills for missions are too far out of the way and are worth skilling up for. I'm also told that I should do all the tutorial missions for all the Caldari agents (?) and my allied agents (???) and I'll be way ahead of the standings curve, which will be important (Again, ???? because I don't know why). So in EVEMon with the blank character maker I set this up:

Already done:
- Social is trained to level 4
- Caldari Frigate is trained to level 3 so I can pilot Merlin's and Kestrel's, which are apparently really good for starting out
- Surveying is t level 3 and Salvaging is at level 1

Coming up:
- Missile Launcher Operation and Rockets I
- Target Painting I
- Weapons Upgrades I
- Hull Upgrades I
- Afterburner I
- ORE Industrial I
(This rounds off everything I could possibly want to fit on a very basic tutorial mission and level 1 mission kestrel or merlin)
- Basic Active Shield Tanking
- Basic Shield Reinforcement
- Basic Missile Control
- Basic Rocket Certification
- Basic High Speed Maneuvering Certification
- Skills needed for a Caracle, the next level of missile ships
- Cruiser Missile Basic Certification
- Core Competency Certification to Basic
- Target Painting Certification to Basic
- Drake Skills
- Drone Control and Combat Drone Control Certifications to Standard
- Active Shield and Shield Reinforcement to Standard
- Core Competency to Standard
- Missile-related Certifications for the Drake to Standard
- High Speed Maneuvering Certification to Improved
- All the other aformentioned certifications to Improved
(Supposedly will be able to run any missions I find?)
- Tengu skills, with all the Caldari ***** Systems skills to IV (Why doesn't the actual Tengu skill have to go past 1? Does it not matter?)
*** Should be very PvP worthy now***
- Logistics Certification to Elite
- Skills to fly a Basilisk
- All ECM Certifications to Improved
- Skills to fly a Scorpion
- All Armor Certifications to Improved
*** Should be very well rounded for PvP situations ***
- Profit


Does this sound viable at all? I threw some questions in there that don't make sense to me. This is partly him building a plan for me and me trying to understand it, and me playing with it in EVEMon and trying to figure it out. Any advice will be appreciated!

*Missiles apply full DPS at range whereas guns don't, apparently.
Humidor Cigarillo
#2 - 2012-02-05 09:23:35 UTC
Pick any other weapon system or race.

Thank me later when you realize what you avoided.
CausticS0da
Shrubbery Acquisitions
Blohm and Voss Shipyards Alliance
#3 - 2012-02-05 10:28:23 UTC  |  Edited by: CausticS0da
All I can recommend is not to focus too much on a weapon type or racial path so early on. The thinking you've already put into the game suggests to me that you have a great future. Also be aware that until you're talikng about battleships and large guns it doesn't matter that much anyway. Get to battlecruiser level, do some level 3s and some pvp and you'll be in a better position to decide.


The 'tengu skill' reduces heat damage, so yes it is worth taking to IV.
Shi'on Uzuki
Doomheim
#4 - 2012-02-05 16:52:28 UTC
Humidor Cigarillo wrote:
Pick any other weapon system or race.

Thank me later when you realize what you avoided.



Are missiles not all that they're cracked up to be? What exactly would I be avoiding in the long run? I'm not asking to be sarcastic or anything (please don't think that!!!), I'm just trying to get a bigger picture.


CausticS0da wrote:
All I can recommend is not to focus too much on a weapon type or racial path so early on. ... Also be aware that until you're talikng about battleships and large guns it doesn't matter that much anyway. Get to battlecruiser level, do some level 3s and some pvp and you'll be in a better position to decide.


It seems like these two comments go hand in hand. Is the suggestion that missiles are a little more.... 'boring'? Not as effective? I'm guessing once I start heavily training into the other ships it's kind of like a 'point of no return, or at least a really really long one' kind of situation. Is that correct?

I definitely appreciate all the advice so far!
RavenPaine
RaVeN Alliance
#5 - 2012-02-05 18:14:26 UTC
I have to leave in 5 minutes.. Some thoughts to start you off tho.

If you burn through the missions, and skip the salvage and looting, you will get up to the better agents faster. Salvage has been nerfed in recent months. It is not what it once was...

The tutorials aren't imprtantant imo. The STORYLINES are! One after about every 15ish completed missions will be offered.

Missioning is a great way to earn isk AND train pvp skills. Sort of a 2 fer 1 deal.

Missiles are great for missions and decent for certain types of PvP. Full damage at range will actually move many drakes into the top damage dealt on a kill mail. Sitting at range means you "kite" the big DPS, but you cannot tackle anything from out too far.

Guns are better for instant damage and in some cases an alpha strike damage. There is more *flying tecnique* involved. Piloting skills.

It will get down to: What's fun for YOU and your style.
Marsan
#6 - 2012-02-05 18:48:13 UTC
Missiles aren't as bad in pvp as people think. Yes there are better weapons in terms of damage, but only if you are in perfect range. I see a lot of drake fleets and drakes in fleet in pvp. They aren't toping the damage charts but they aren't dying in droves either.

+ You can do any type of damage you want.
+ Range doesn't matter as much.
+ Doesn't require as much player skill
- Damage isn't the greatest, but you do the same damage at all ranges.
- Damage isn't instant (You lose dps due to missiles that were sent after a target that died before they hit.)


As far a going for skills. I recommend choosing a weapon system and racial ship type. This should be missiles, drones, or projectile weapons. Don't go for laser or hybrid weapons. If you go drones you'll likely need to invest some points in hybrids. Train cruiser to 4 in the race you want, and train battlecruiser to 4 or 5. As battlecruisers are the cheapest easiest way to do pve effective, and later be able to pvp effectively. Then skip Battleships and go straight for a strategic cruiser.

Things to do early.
1) Don't forget to get fitting skills. Weapon upgrades, and advance weapon upgrades for example make a major difference. Grab any thing that increases power grid and cpu.

2) Don't forget to grab every skill that boosts the amount or reg of shields, armor, structure, and cap. These are cheap to buy and to easy bring to level 3. Even if you aren't a shield tanker for example more shield will help.

3) Grab all the little skills for your chosen weapon type and train them to 3.

4) Until you start training to 5 in cruiser or start training Battleships there isn't a big training investment. The same is true for weapons until you train them to 5 or train for Battleship scale weapons you aren't making a big investment. The one thing to realize is the choice of missiles

5) You want to train most drone skills to 3 no matter what you do.

6) Always pad your training queue with a few 1-3 level skills ahead of your big skill in the queue before log out.

Former forum cheerleader CCP, now just a grumpy small portion of the community.
Marsan
#7 - 2012-02-05 19:13:55 UTC
Oh yeah train destroyers and salvage. That way if you join a corp you can ask around for someone doing level 4s and offer to salvage the missions for him and split the loot 50/50. It's rare a corp mate will refuse the offer, and many will just let you keep what you salvage. A destroyer with afterburner, and salvage mods can really rake in the isk. (tractors are handy too.) Sure he could get a well fitted Noc and do the salvage in 1/4 the time, but most mission runners don't.

Former forum cheerleader CCP, now just a grumpy small portion of the community.
Shi'on Uzuki
Doomheim
#8 - 2012-02-05 19:23:26 UTC
Marsan wrote:
Oh yeah train destroyers and salvage. That way if you join a corp you can ask around for someone doing level 4s and offer to salvage the missions for him and split the loot 50/50. It's rare a corp mate will refuse the offer, and many will just let you keep what you salvage. A destroyer with afterburner, and salvage mods can really rake in the isk. (tractors are handy too.) Sure he could get a well fitted Noc and do the salvage in 1/4 the time, but most mission runners don't.


Thanks for all the advice :) I've been talking in Help as well and asking some questions there. Fortunately I can already fly a Noctis and use tractors and salvagers. The skills are only at level 1, but for now that's good enough until I start doing my own level 4 missions. Now I just need to afford it Pirate Or find one floating in space.

I understand that EVE University is a good place to go to learn the ropes of PvP in a controlled environment? Does anyone have any thoughts or opinions there?
Humidor Cigarillo
#9 - 2012-02-05 20:23:10 UTC
Marsan wrote:

+ You can do any type of damage you want.
+ Range doesn't matter as much.
+ Doesn't require as much player skill
- Damage isn't the greatest, but you do the same damage at all ranges.
- Damage isn't instant (You lose dps due to missiles that were sent after a target that died before they hit.)


-You can select any damage type, but most of the time you choose kinetic or drastically reduced damage.
-Range matters more because you do not have falloff and your missile can run out of gas before reaching a target.
-Requires less overall sp to train gunnery skills because then you have Three viable weapon systems instead of just one.
-Your dps is the same across your range, but the longer range the longer you wait for it to be applied.
-Targets can literally warp away while your missiles are heading toward them.
-Heavy and to a much lesser extent heavy assault missiles/rockets are your only good weapons. Cruise are flat-out broken, siege are extremely niche, standard are mediocre.

tldr; training missiles first is a bad idea, always has been. You gain marginally faster access to a couple good pvp ships and loose the ability to more quickly crosstrain the more numerous and broadly useful turret based ships. Unless you have patience and really like flying a drake, you are best served training for guns first and missiles much later.
Shi'on Uzuki
Doomheim
#10 - 2012-02-05 20:37:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Shi'on Uzuki
Humidor Cigarillo wrote:
Marsan wrote:

+ You can do any type of damage you want.
+ Range doesn't matter as much.
+ Doesn't require as much player skill
- Damage isn't the greatest, but you do the same damage at all ranges.
- Damage isn't instant (You lose dps due to missiles that were sent after a target that died before they hit.)


-You can select any damage type, but most of the time you choose kinetic or drastically reduced damage.
-Range matters more because you do not have falloff and your missile can run out of gas before reaching a target.
-Requires less overall sp to train gunnery skills because then you have Three viable weapon systems instead of just one.
-Your dps is the same across your range, but the longer range the longer you wait for it to be applied.
-Targets can literally warp away while your missiles are heading toward them.
-Heavy and to a much lesser extent heavy assault missiles/rockets are your only good weapons. Cruise are flat-out broken, siege are extremely niche, standard are mediocre.

tldr; training missiles first is a bad idea, always has been. You gain marginally faster access to a couple good pvp ships and loose the ability to more quickly crosstrain the more numerous and broadly useful turret based ships. Unless you have patience and really like flying a drake, you are best served training for guns first and missiles much later.



Those are very good points. That being said, what direction do you usually recommend people go and why? I've read the EVElopedia article about the different weapon systems, but I'm curious about your take on them. Do you prefer projectiles? Lasers? What? And why?

Quick Edit: With all this discussion on the topic I've opted to continue training my mission-related social skills before devoting too heavily in one direction or the other. For example, I have Negotiations to IV queued, and will probably train Security Connections and Connections each to IV as well. I've trained up enough to fly a Noctis and a very very standard Merlin/Kestrel rocket fit so I can run the tutorials and level 1 missions, and I imagine by the time I move on to anything bigger I'll have enough real-player feedback to make an informed decision about what to pursue.
CausticS0da
Shrubbery Acquisitions
Blohm and Voss Shipyards Alliance
#11 - 2012-02-05 21:05:43 UTC  |  Edited by: CausticS0da
Shi'on Uzuki wrote:


Quick Edit: With all this discussion on the topic I've opted to continue training my mission-related social skills before devoting too heavily in one direction or the other. For example, I have Negotiations to IV queued, and will probably train Security Connections and Connections each to IV as well. I've trained up enough to fly a Noctis and a very very standard Merlin/Kestrel rocket fit so I can run the tutorials and level 1 missions, and I imagine by the time I move on to anything bigger I'll have enough real-player feedback to make an informed decision about what to pursue.


Fair enough, good idea. Join the ingame channels such as 'help' and you'll get a constant stream of good info. You'll make friends too.

Take your time. Eve is a marriage, not a one night stand.
Shi'on Uzuki
Doomheim
#12 - 2012-02-05 21:30:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Shi'on Uzuki
CausticS0da wrote:
Shi'on Uzuki wrote:


Quick Edit: With all this discussion on the topic I've opted to continue training my mission-related social skills before devoting too heavily in one direction or the other. For example, I have Negotiations to IV queued, and will probably train Security Connections and Connections each to IV as well. I've trained up enough to fly a Noctis and a very very standard Merlin/Kestrel rocket fit so I can run the tutorials and level 1 missions, and I imagine by the time I move on to anything bigger I'll have enough real-player feedback to make an informed decision about what to pursue.


Fair enough, good idea. Join the ingame channels such as 'help' and you'll get a constant stream of good info. You'll make friends too.

Take your time. Eve is a marriage, not a one night stand.



Exactly right. I know that people have been playing for YEARS (like 2003?) and have over 100 million skill points, so it's definitely a long term adventure.

I figure that if I get my social skills out of the way first then by the time I get enough input as to what weapon system people use and why, I'll have enough information to make an informed decision. I think I get that projectiles are good because of various damage types and good falloff ranges, but need reloaded a LOT more often (and apparently the artillery cannons do a lot alpha damage). Lasers are good because they don't need reloaded NEARLY as often and when they do need swapped, they are very quick about it, meaning you can change crystals on the fly to adjust for range without much hickup. I understand that blasters a lol but railguns offer the longest range of any of the weapons, even if they're subpar as far as damage. Lastly, I get that missiles apply full DPS regardless of range as long as they land and the other ship isn't flying faster than your splash damage spreads (I think that's called your signature radius?). meaning they're excellent for all things PvE, but in PvP combat you're generally not in range to keep someone around with warp disruptors and therefore they tend to leave the engagement before you can kill them.

That's a LOT of information to take in. I like the idea of being able to adjust for range with lasers, but I imagine that the capacitor skills are a must no matter what you fly with them. Doesn't that also mean that any repair modules you use will also suffer from this?


EDIT: Also, from browsing old posts and using the magical google, it appears that the Legion (Amarr's T3 ship) is, in relative terms to offensive and defensive balance and utility, inferior to the Tengu (Caldari's T3 ship). It seems the Legion has it's uses, such as baiting people, but that if you ever ended up in a close engagement, you can be entirely shut down if the opponent has any kind of capacitor neutralizers. Is there any additional input there?
CausticS0da
Shrubbery Acquisitions
Blohm and Voss Shipyards Alliance
#13 - 2012-02-05 22:27:32 UTC
You can do more than bait in a legion. Search for the garmon 100mn AB Legion vid as an example.
OfBalance
Caldari State
#14 - 2012-02-05 22:36:05 UTC
I disagree with the huge tirade against missiles, but have to somewhat concur that gunnery affords a younger player more options provided that they are undecided about what ships to fly yet.
Shi'on Uzuki
Doomheim
#15 - 2012-02-06 01:23:48 UTC
Well, I've trained Amarr Frigate II and Small Energy Turret (something) to I, so I'll hop over to Amarr space and give that a try and see which I like better. Further reading is showing that Amarr are lackluster in terms of frigates and cruisers but that they really shine going up to the BS hulls.
Ireland VonVicious
Vicious Trading Company
#16 - 2012-02-06 02:37:49 UTC
Huge love for missles.

Missles offer a lot of options. (( Guns don't even come close ))

The EW that caldari offer is 2nd to none.

The races are all so close to balanced that these threads of this one is best are just junk.

The guys building and working on the game know a lot more then the people in the forums.

Do what feels right as a play style.


After you choose a race:

Get in a destroyer run L1's

Get in a cruiser run L2's and turn your destroyer into a salvage ship.

Get into a BC run L3's

Train for the noctis to improve salvaging.

Get into a BS and run L4's

Your isk making machine is now relatively stable.

Time to build a good pvp machine.

Once done work on getting better isk making setups and pvp ships.
Shi'on Uzuki
Doomheim
#17 - 2012-02-06 02:46:09 UTC
Ireland VonVicious wrote:
Huge love for missles.

Missles offer a lot of options. (( Guns don't even come close ))

The EW that caldari offer is 2nd to none.

The races are all so close to balanced that these threads of this one is best are just junk.

The guys building and working on the game know a lot more then the people in the forums.

Do what feels right as a play style.


After you choose a race:

Get in a destroyer run L1's

Get in a cruiser run L2's and turn your destroyer into a salvage ship.

Get into a BC run L3's

Train for the noctis to improve salvaging.

Get into a BS and run L4's

Your isk making machine is now relatively stable.

Time to build a good pvp machine.

Once done work on getting better isk making setups and pvp ships.




I definitely thank you for your straight and to the point words of advice :) As I do everyone who has contributed here on this thread. I like the comment concerning that this thread is 'the best', in which I'm hoping you mean that this one is constructive and objective :D For a long term commitment I definitely just want to know what my options are up front and try to, as you say, pick a path that's right for me.

I appreciate it all guys :D
Marsan
#18 - 2012-02-06 02:55:43 UTC
If you are worried that ships are going to warp out before your missiles hit you are doing something horribly wrong. (Like alpha sniping with missiles...) Generally in pvp you are pretty close and have point on the enemy. (If you don't have warp disruptor or the like I'm not sure how you expect kill most targets.)

Hybrids and Lasers aren't as good as Projectiles as they don't do more damage, and have fixed damage types. This is why you see a lot of pvp done with projectiles, followed by missiles and drones. Laser and hybrids are a real pain in pve when you face an enemy which have resists against your damage types.

People say heavy missiles and heavy assaults are the only worth while missiles. What's their point? Tengus with either type top the kill mails in pvp on a regular basis. Standard missiles are fine for early pve mission running, and are nice in that you don't have to worry about range as much. Torps are much maligned but they rip battleships, indys, and POS apart at short range. (Plus they are the only option for SBs.) Cruise missiles do suck a bit, but they do have the advantage of being able to hit things at long and short ranges. (Personally right now I'd recommend sniping with projectiles or drones.)

Former forum cheerleader CCP, now just a grumpy small portion of the community.
Allyia Base
Doomheim
#19 - 2012-02-06 04:00:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Allyia Base
Missiles are not bad, but they just don't mesh well in a lot of groups. If you fly solo this is not a problem, if you plan on joining a moderate to larger sized corp, it make become an issue. The most popular choice these days, far and away, is projectile weapons, followed not so closely by pulse lasers. If I were starting a character today I would begin with one of those two and then cross train to the other.
Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#20 - 2012-02-06 12:50:12 UTC
Eve has a Certificate system, you'll find it when you open you caracter sheet, -> Certificate planner.

Get your core certificates at standaard, relevant Defence to Standaard (in case of caldari Shield related)
Same goes for Missiles and support missile tree.

as for the use of missiles in PvP.

There are some great missile ships, some are so great they are hated intensly.

-> Caldari Navy Hookbill
-> Manticore
-> Drake
-> Tengu (expensive though)

Are very good pvp ships, not in all situations though no one ship is.

Rockets and Heavy missiles rock,
Heavy Assault Missiles are ok
Torpedos as well though they are very skill intensive.

Cruise Missiles have no use in PvP though.

And despite what lots of people tell you, the Drake is a wonderfull ship that will give you the oppertunity to learn PvP before going to ships that require more experience and skill (not only as in skill points.)
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