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(Forward) How long can we fight?
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Commissar Nalelmir
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#41 - 2011-09-11 23:43:51 UTC
To answer the original question: We fight till God himself comes to give his final judgement if it takes that long to defeat Sansha and his dark, twisted dream.
Khersei
Deimos Delivery Co
Pillars of Liberty
#42 - 2011-09-12 12:29:15 UTC
It is our nature to struggle against Evil as we percieve it. And of all the things Sansha Kuvakei has been most sucessful at : It is setting himself as the enemy of nigh on every living human being in Empire or not.


When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle.
Aphoxema G
Khushakor Clan
#43 - 2011-09-14 02:49:48 UTC
Ghost Hunter wrote:
There it is - that thinking I despise. Suffering is not an inherent trait, it is a virulent sickness almost as damaging as free will. No human being is born to suffer or to cause it, it is a product of the human environment that conditions them into that role. Suffering does not validate itself, nor does it justify happiness by providing an asinine comparison.


The state of "suffering" is not on trial and humans can generally agree on what suffering is (sparing the annoyingly pedantic people). Suffering is a reaction to a cause and what is worth discussing is what causes it, but more importantly... if suffering is something we can be happy without.

Bear in mind that Kuvakei has free will and can (I speculate) experience anguish. This puts him on the same personal level as you and me.

Ghost Hunter wrote:
You Capsuleers had the option - you could have laid down your arms and taken my Master's generous offer. There would have been no shame; the contrary even, it would have been marvelous to see an end to Capsuleer rampages. Instead your kind continues to throw human lives away and pointlessly resist Nation's eternal might. The blame is not with Master Sansha or Nation, it is with you.


I am confident that in Sansha's desperation he will gracefully accept us into his everlasting love after we've had the opportunity to decide the likelyhood of the Nation's success in conquering New Eden and if his offering is a fair alternative to death. No shame, right? That suggests that we continually have the option to submit without penalty.

Ghost Hunter wrote:
You agree with me that the Nullsec Capsuleers are a problem, but do you act? I have seen and listened to many 'humane' Capsuleers lament about the Nullsec problem, yet they never do anything. Disorganized and divided by your own differences you cannot band together to defeat them. If for no other reason, this alone would give you meaning to join Nation to eliminate the Nullsec Capsuleers. As you are, nothing will be reached - but within Nation you could have achieved something.


Nullsec is not coming to me to allow terrible things to happen to me. I am supporting the expansion of the Empires and CONCORD so in a miniscule way I am acting to fight the wrongdoing done in nullsec. I do not lament, I do not experience sympathy for people willing to leave the civilization that the Empires mostly have to offer.

Outer-ring colonies have become the plaything of power-mad capsuleers but that does not give me the right to cause harm to those capsuleers when they are not assaulting anything I feel obligated to protect.

That isn't to say that with the Nation this menace couldn't be eliminated; I am just not deluded into believing that I know what is right better than my fellow human, capsuleer or not.

Ghost Hunter wrote:
If you see the common good between your morals and Master's, why do you hesitate? Is it because a century of slander by the Empires has so thoroughly colored Nation into your worst nightmare? Is it because all you ever see is the True Power fighting back against your heinous advances? If you see Master Sansha as a good person then I cannot see why you disagree with His ethics. All that I can see from you is a fear of the unknown and misunderstood.


Honestly it is a very, very noble thing that Kuvakei is trying to accomplish. I respect his intent and I certainly don't think destroying the Nation is necessary so long as it does not continue to force itself upon everyone else. The problem is is that what he is doing is contradictory.

We must think to do decide right or wrong. A bullet or poison does not choose to hurt a person or recognize this as wrong. With the power to decide between right and wrong we can live to choose the right thing. Removing us of this capacity may allow us to do things we would previously have seen to be wrong. Depending on a person's philosophy, abandoning our free will is abandoning our ability to disallow wrongdoing.

Ghost Hunter wrote:
I will not bother considering your final question simply because the nature is impractical. Master Sansha knows more than me, He is more experienced, and much more wise. I avoid indulging in the presumption I could understand His reasoning entirely. Some is simple for me to grasp, but on others I simply trust His judgment for it is completely beyond me. I take no shame in admitting that.


I'm not asking you to make a decision on behalf of Kuvakei. I'm one of those dumb people who don't really believe there is a meaning to life and I reckon that it is up to us to make one up. What I am referring to is Sansha's meaning, which I suppose is anyone's guess, and that his success is his failure.

If this guy wins and controls all of Humanity, what can he do with it? The tragedy isn't just the snuffing of free will; It would be awful if he went through all the trouble only to look upon his toys and spend eternity asking himself "Well, that was fun. What do I do with this now that I got it?"
Maya Erena
Doomheim
#44 - 2011-09-14 12:38:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Maya Erena
It's amazing how spending a few minutes in the Nation seems to instantly shatter all understanding of human and social development. It's almost as if you're all lobotomy patients. Oh, wait.

Honestly, though, really now. Do you even hear the tripe coming out of your mouth? Let me try and impart a few basic concepts to you: Society exists purely to serve the people in it. Everyone wants two things in life, at the very core; Personal happiness and well being, and a sense that the world is just and fair and everything is as it should be. The only reason we're not running around in rags is to meet this criteria and perfect it to the highest degree. Regardless of what stupid interpretation of it a paticular society has, the basic goal remains the same.

It's all well and good saying things like, "Free will doesn't exist! We're all forced into what we do anyway! And existing society has X flaws and people are killing eachother for X reasons!" Fine, that's great - So you improve on it. You minimize the amount of people dying stupid, futile deaths, and the amount of people delivering them. Maybe you can't create perfect free will - Hell, I don't think anyone would think you could - but you can get closer. That's why countries have wars, or at least why they should be having them.

But going in the opposite direction? That doesn't serve any purpose at all. Making a person into a machine doesn't accomplish a damn thing for a society, because it defeats the very point in the first place - helping people achieve happiness and potential. So it doesn't matter what amazing things you build or create or pull out of your rear at that point, it's already failed on a fundemental basis because it's not helping people. Maybe it's helping a few people, sure, but nations that serve the few at the expense of many are something that we've been doing since the dark ages. It's not better. Just more efficient at failing.

What a joke. I can't wait until Sansha finally gets put down - Then I'll get the pleasure of watching all you supporters try to backpedal out of your "convictions" and trip over your words in public. It'll be a laugh riot.
Wedgetail
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#45 - 2011-09-21 04:53:01 UTC
Aphoxema G wrote:
[As requested by Manwe Todako from http://www.eveonline.com/iNgameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1571916]

I'm not giving up, I'll never give up, but I'm losing hope.

I won't bother to look up when Kuvakai returned... I just know it feels like it was much longer ago than it really has been. The Nation is made of flesh and machine but it might as well be stone; every battle that's been won to hold the incursions back hasn't slowed the inevitable next attack.

The sheer number of their forces has eclipsed whatever my imagination could predict. At first I was afraid, I knew they were a bigger threat than rogue drones could ever really be, but I knew there would be people willing to fight with the firepower necessary. Now I'm not afraid anymore. I'm not resigned... I do know I'm reaching a limit I've never really faced before.

Even if I step away to allow myself to recover, I don't think rest will come easy facing the guilt that I am not helping to eliminate the biggest threat to Humanity that we have ever faced. The Nation doesn't just take your allegiance, they take your dreams and expectations. They delete memes and turn people into war processors. It's not a fight over beliefs, it's absolute subjugation of our ability to hold beliefs.


This is exactly the warning I gave to SYNE and FCORD elements who foolishly believed their continued waste of strength would somehow win them this conflict.

- wasted energy at this stage of the war will be our ruin and as uneasy as your rest may be it is something that must be done.

- thankfully nation's target affords us the chance to do just that, for as long as they chase after us we do not have to strive to protect those who cannot defend themselves as forcefully - we can hold those efforts at bay with less to afford more of us time to rest and search for the opening we so desperately need to find.

nation's current objective is us - it seeks to eliminate us as an obstacle to its plans - this is no small task but that does not afford us the luxury of making it easier for him with foolish goals of fame and glory - these will doom the galaxy and every free thinking person within it. wars are won and defeat avoided by the most intelligent - by those that think and act according to the opponent they face. - our enemy seeks to destroy us our objective therefore is to survive - to remain in a position where he cannot act with impunity due to our presence for as long as we possibly can

I will say this again and for the last time: look at the enemy as you would if he was an opponent you respected, not as the enemy you mock nor the enemy you fear, by doing this you will see him for what he is. You will be on your guard and you will be able to properly fight the war we are faced with. The time for fighting and winning individual battles is long past - many of those I dealt with spoke of winning a war their actions consistantly drove them to lose.

this must stop.
Aphoxema G
Khushakor Clan
#46 - 2011-09-22 04:41:39 UTC
Wedgetail wrote:
[...]
- wasted energy at this stage of the war will be our ruin and as uneasy as your rest may be it is something that must be done.
[...]


I expected either encouragement to push on or permission to settle. By giving me neither you give me both.

This is a very special war. Humans have infighting, distrust, complexity... between each other we can exploit these organizational vulnerabilities. I don't know a whole lot about the Nation, and seeing how it apparently can't offer me a conversation I can't really learn much about it. I do know that to some degree, maybe entirely, they do not suffer this handicap.

Kuvakei can break us. Capsuleers are the most powerful instrument against a threat like this, but we're human. We can become corrupt in ways that can't possibly be described. We can be monsters and machines. We can become everything that Humanity should despise, but in being human ourselves our minds have very real limits. Pressed enough, we collapse. Everything we might believe ourselves to be can be shattered in unpredictable ways.

He's spent far too long preparing to just pepper us for our own amusement. This is his trial and only the beginning. He will keep pushing just enough until enough of us grow tired or complacent and let go. We have no way of knowing how many drones or resources he has or can produce. Imagine if he's discovered a way to grow new warriors as quickly as we eliminate the incursions. Imagine if he is building motherships indefinitely at the same rate they are being destroyed.

I might live for thousands of years. What offers me the power to escape mortality is the same thing that may condemn me to spend those thousands of years fighting this same war. In another time, I might have imagined Zukes and me growing old together. Instead I'll be a demigod until there's an accident or when I choose to escape it.

Without her, I think I would have already cancelled my medical contract... or maybe just surrendered to the Nation.

I can't be a leader, I can't summon pilots to fight for me. I just take up opportunities to lend my hands to people more qualified. Do I think for myself? Am I just the not-Sansha drone equivalent to Sansha drones?

I need to stop drinking so much wine and go so long without sleep.
Wedgetail
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#47 - 2011-09-22 07:07:52 UTC
Aphoxema G wrote:
Wedgetail wrote:
[...]
- wasted energy at this stage of the war will be our ruin and as uneasy as your rest may be it is something that must be done.
[...]


I expected either encouragement to push on or permission to settle. By giving me neither you give me both.

This is a very special war. Humans have infighting, distrust, complexity... between each other we can exploit these organizational vulnerabilities. I don't know a whole lot about the Nation, and seeing how it apparently can't offer me a conversation I can't really learn much about it. I do know that to some degree, maybe entirely, they do not suffer this handicap.

Kuvakei can break us. Capsuleers are the most powerful instrument against a threat like this, but we're human. We can become corrupt in ways that can't possibly be described. We can be monsters and machines. We can become everything that Humanity should despise, but in being human ourselves our minds have very real limits. Pressed enough, we collapse. Everything we might believe ourselves to be can be shattered in unpredictable ways.

He's spent far too long preparing to just pepper us for our own amusement. This is his trial and only the beginning. He will keep pushing just enough until enough of us grow tired or complacent and let go. We have no way of knowing how many drones or resources he has or can produce. Imagine if he's discovered a way to grow new warriors as quickly as we eliminate the incursions. Imagine if he is building motherships indefinitely at the same rate they are being destroyed.

I might live for thousands of years. What offers me the power to escape mortality is the same thing that may condemn me to spend those thousands of years fighting this same war. In another time, I might have imagined Zukes and me growing old together. Instead I'll be a demigod until there's an accident or when I choose to escape it.

Without her, I think I would have already cancelled my medical contract... or maybe just surrendered to the Nation.

I can't be a leader, I can't summon pilots to fight for me. I just take up opportunities to lend my hands to people more qualified. Do I think for myself? Am I just the not-Sansha drone equivalent to Sansha drones?

I need to stop drinking so much wine and go so long without sleep.


It's by understanding all of these facets of our existence that we will be able to beat nation - nation has very similar weaknesses to us - their clones stop - nation stops the only sure way to win is for one side to literally kill off the other.

nation though has a few targets to aim at that we don't as you said :) capsuleers get bored - capsuleers get tired their crews more so so we have to guard against more than he does (or at least appears to).

our greatest strength is for the time in brute force - his is in his endurance and mobility one will win when they subvert the advantage of the other - we must out last him long enough to hit his weak point and he must last long enough to over run us - whether this is due to us having our fleets fail to apathy, damage or fatigue matters little.

one thing i will caution you on though is your second last point - no maybe you're not a leader but this is a choice you made for yourself based on an assessment of yourself you've made and it is true for no other reason than this. because of this ability to analyze our own strengths and weaknesses we are able to make intelligent choices - because we can recognise our short comings and compensate for them by drawing from others what we lack that we succeed.

nation's rank and file don't do this, can't do this or simply don't care either way as failure on the battlefield at this time is inconsequential to them. the true slaves however are another matter entirely.

short end of it is this fight is as you said far from over - but we are not spent yet and won't be for a long time - longer if we play our cards right.
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