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Idears for a Flagship in high/lowsec warfare
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Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#61 - 2012-02-07 11:52:33 UTC
I lost a similarly fit Scimitar to an arty Maelstrom once - but to be fair I was already at half shields by the time he locked me up. I was busy playing station games and didn't have the necessary transversal to make him miss. IMO it was more of a derp on my part than it being a particularly good counter to the fit on an open battlefield... but its definitely something to keep an eye out for.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Danny John-Peter
Blue Canary
Watch This
#62 - 2012-02-07 11:56:34 UTC
Liang has derps, shock horror :P

Wow, we mega Delayed this thread, TLDR;

Mega Uber Shiny Slaved Faction BS

Carrier Maybe if you feel brave enough (may incur the wrath of the Hotdrop)

I would say Vulture/Damnation depending on fleet comp, or maybe a Claymore for the pure sexy factor.
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#63 - 2012-02-07 15:31:37 UTC
I would pick up a cheap Navy Scorpion, Fleet Typhoon or Navy Armageddon. Fit them with mostly T2 but maybe a few cheap faction mods to increase survivability... Jump in as bait and make sure you have some good backup.
If you have as much isk you say you can repeat this a lot even if you get blobbed once or twice.

If you really insisted on something hugely expensive just get something that offers more than pure dps. Vindicator and Bhaalgorn are all capable of dps, tank and some good utility for a fleet and besides a few faction eanm's, a faction web and maybe a few faction neuts they don't really require a lot of faction modules to work.

With a good set of implants you will actually feel you are getting something for your isk...
axxeessee
Trade and Supplies Co.
#64 - 2012-02-07 22:24:08 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Guardian needs to be in groups to be effective, its sig tank combined with EHP is nice, like 65+ EHP with legion bonus and around 65M Sig Rad with Loki bonus is pretty damn fine.

Apparently the Onieros no longer sucks though.


I dunno, I'd say both the Ony and the Scim still suck. The Scim sucks because its just utterly outclassed by the Basi (even in the one niche where you would REALLY expect it to succeed) and the Ony sucks because the Guardian just works better for the blob warfare that you normally see armor rolling in. I blame the tracking link bonus, but I understand its really popular for people who need to shave another 15 seconds off their next Incursion NCO.

-Liang



The Scimis real purpose/niche is nanofleets.

Try to bring a Basi to a nanofleet and youll understand why youre a straight up ******.

Of course the basi is better for gatecamping in lowsec like the little wussy that you are.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#65 - 2012-02-07 22:55:34 UTC
axxeessee wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Guardian needs to be in groups to be effective, its sig tank combined with EHP is nice, like 65+ EHP with legion bonus and around 65M Sig Rad with Loki bonus is pretty damn fine.

Apparently the Onieros no longer sucks though.


I dunno, I'd say both the Ony and the Scim still suck. The Scim sucks because its just utterly outclassed by the Basi (even in the one niche where you would REALLY expect it to succeed) and the Ony sucks because the Guardian just works better for the blob warfare that you normally see armor rolling in. I blame the tracking link bonus, but I understand its really popular for people who need to shave another 15 seconds off their next Incursion NCO.

-Liang



The Scimis real purpose/niche is nanofleets.

Try to bring a Basi to a nanofleet and youll understand why youre a straight up ******.

Of course the basi is better for gatecamping in lowsec like the little wussy that you are.


Comments:
- Why yes, I do believe I've said that the Scim is superior if your entire fleet is in Cynabals and they have no idea how to stay in the 140km diameter sphere you can affect. Roll
- I don't gate camp, and really nobody in the "late night crew" does.

-Linag

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
#66 - 2012-02-08 02:42:33 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:

Comments:
- Why yes, I do believe I've said that the Scim is superior if your entire fleet is in Cynabals and they have no idea how to stay in the 140km diameter sphere you can affect. Roll
- I don't gate camp, and really nobody in the "late night crew" does.

-Linag

TBH that sounds a lot like something you would say, being a solo logi pilot who likes to fly in small gangs. As gangs get bigger, and people spread out more, and logis tend to like flying away from the guys trying to shoot them, it is quite easy for someone to slip out of the 70km range mark.

Also since I'm sure you've flown logis enough to know that you should pretty much never be closer to the opposing fleet than the guys doing the actual shooting, so I'm definitely going to have to call you out on using the diameter to refer to your range to make the number bigger P

Also calling you out on pretending cynabals are the only things that can outrun a basi. Hell A basi with one nano moves slower than a zealot with the plates removed. Any sort of nano gang will have the basi lagging behind, and while this may not seem like much of a hindrance at the gang sizes in which you operate, on a larger scale it can get annoying, fast.

The scimi is ~40% faster than the basi (before getting into the extra lows and the potential for more nanos). If you can't see why that would be useful then fine, don't use it, but stop acting like things always work the way they do in your small lowsec gangs. 4 people staying in range of 1 logi is easy, 100 staying in range of 20 separate logis is less so.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#67 - 2012-02-08 03:46:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Cambarus wrote:

TBH that sounds a lot like something you would say, being a solo logi pilot who likes to fly in small gangs. As gangs get bigger, and people spread out more, and logis tend to like flying away from the guys trying to shoot them, it is quite easy for someone to slip out of the 70km range mark.

Also since I'm sure you've flown logis enough to know that you should pretty much never be closer to the opposing fleet than the guys doing the actual shooting, so I'm definitely going to have to call you out on using the diameter to refer to your range to make the number bigger P

Also calling you out on pretending cynabals are the only things that can outrun a basi. Hell A basi with one nano moves slower than a zealot with the plates removed. Any sort of nano gang will have the basi lagging behind, and while this may not seem like much of a hindrance at the gang sizes in which you operate, on a larger scale it can get annoying, fast.


Ok, here's the deal: you stop "calling me out" about areas of the game you literally nothing about and I won't "call you out" on areas of the game I know literally nothing about. If the engagement happens on a gate, I will be on that gate - regardless of if the entire enemy fleet is there. If it happens at a belt I'll dangle my Basi right in someone's face if that means they stay still long enough for someone to land a tackle on them.

Small gang PVP is utterly different than the kind of **** you're used to.

Really, its not about outrunning the Basi - its about how large the "effective battlefield" is. When everyone's going 1500 m/s it takes a lot longer to cross that 70-140km than it does if everyone's rolling along at 5km/s. Another neat trick that you can take advantage of is on-grid warping, which works most of the time that your gang really gets spread out. The reason I keep falling back to the Cynabal is because:
A) The Vagabond is obsolete.
B) The Cynabal is the most common nano cruiser
C) The Basi works fine with nano canes and most nano HACs

Quote:

The scimi is ~40% faster than the basi (before getting into the extra lows and the potential for more nanos). If you can't see why that would be useful then fine, don't use it, but stop acting like things always work the way they do in your small lowsec gangs. 4 people staying in range of 1 logi is easy, 100 staying in range of 20 separate logis is less so.


Comments:
- I haven't said anything about active tanking a logi in a 100+ man fleet. In fact, I'd say that's pretty pants on head stupid - though its not something I do so I may be wrong. (I doubt it). And considering the entire discussion has centered around small gangs (Definitely < 20) it seems like talking about 120+ man fleets is just throwing **** against a wall to see if it sticks.
- I have talked about running the Basi against 10-15 man gangs successfully. Which is a damn sight more than the "4" you keep claiming. Remember, its not just about how big your gang is, but also the one you're facing.
- You keep throwing that "low sec" bullshit out there and fail to realize (despite me telling you repeatedly) that the I used it in low sec as well as wormhole space and even 0.0. The mechanics that make the Basi superior to the Scim extend across pretty much all small gangs.
- Yes, the Scimitar is faster. However, if you rig it up to the point that you can actually keep up with all those nano HACs that you keep talking about, your ability to rep is total ****. I know - I used to run those fits.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Danny John-Peter
Blue Canary
Watch This
#68 - 2012-02-08 09:49:23 UTC
I leave for a night and look what happens :P

Liang likes the Basi, I can see why, it reps well and tanks well.

Other people like the Scimi because its fast, which is a virtue all of its own, they both have there strengths and weaknesses.

In larger nano fleets the Scimi is generally accepted as better due to the nature of fast moving nano warfare.

The Guardian is similar to the Basi but its popular because armour ships are slower than shield ships, so there speed and interdependancy are less of an issue, the Basi is less popular because interdependancy and sluggishness are incompatable with the general layouts of shield gangs (Speed and Gank).

Lets just agree to disagree here gents/ladies, before we delay this thread any further.
Alara IonStorm
#69 - 2012-02-08 10:20:53 UTC
Danny John-Peter wrote:

Lets just agree to disagree here gents/ladies, before we delay this thread any further.

I have been on this forum for 3 Years and have never seen this statement...

What does it mean? Are we Agreeing to Argue more? Is this some sort of low blow that works on the meta level?

I have never seen this type of response. It almost seems like you are trying to make some kind of peace or mutual understanding here...

As I said I just don't get it?
Danny John-Peter
Blue Canary
Watch This
#70 - 2012-02-08 10:32:25 UTC
Mutual understanding and respesct is something never seen on this forum before but lets give it a go this once, see what its like.
Versuvius Marii
Browncoats of Persephone
Ironworks Coalition
#71 - 2012-02-08 13:07:23 UTC
Danny John-Peter wrote:
just don't really see the point in the Basi its an honest question.

Confirming CVA have no use for Logistics.

The Gaming MoD - retro to modern, console to MMO, I blog about it if it's a game and I'm interested in it. Yes, I play games other than Eve and I don't care if you think I'm wrong.
Danny John-Peter
Blue Canary
Watch This
#72 - 2012-02-08 13:18:33 UTC
Versuvius Marii wrote:
Danny John-Peter wrote:
just don't really see the point in the Basi its an honest question.

Confirming CVA have no use for Logistics.


Confirming we don't make heavy use of Guardians
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
#73 - 2012-02-08 17:44:51 UTC
Forums ate my page long reply :(

TL;DR:
-Never said anything about active tanking in large fleets.
-As fleet sizes go up, the importance of applying your reps becomes more important than the amount of reps applied (see: blasters in large fleets)
-Most of the game thinks the scimi is a good ship (see ships most flown in pvp)
There was probably more, but **** these forums.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#74 - 2012-02-08 18:19:53 UTC
Cambarus wrote:
Forums ate my page long reply :(

TL;DR:
-Never said anything about active tanking in large fleets.
-As fleet sizes go up, the importance of applying your reps becomes more important than the amount of reps applied (see: blasters in large fleets)
-Most of the game thinks the scimi is a good ship (see ships most flown in pvp)
There was probably more, but **** these forums.


Comments:
- The entire conversation is around 5-20 man fleets. You bringing up 120+ man fleets is you bringing up 120 man fleets without any context to the conversation. Congratulations for muddying the conversation for no ******* reason.
- Yay, more talk about huge fleets. I've found that getting reps there faster isn't very useful if you don't have enough reps - but that's a natural effect of running in "small gangs" (which you apparently classify as less than 120-150 man?)
- Most of the game believes lots of **** that's just wrong - but the reality of the situation is that most of the game doesn't have experience running logis. And furthermore, most of the game doesn't have experience running the sole logi in a small gang (regardless of system sec). Thus - really, most of the game is working off of folk wisdom that's never been challenged.
- I can at least agree with that. **** these forums.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Cambarus
The Baros Syndicate
#75 - 2012-02-08 18:45:38 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Cambarus wrote:
Forums ate my page long reply :(

TL;DR:
-Never said anything about active tanking in large fleets.
-As fleet sizes go up, the importance of applying your reps becomes more important than the amount of reps applied (see: blasters in large fleets)
-Most of the game thinks the scimi is a good ship (see ships most flown in pvp)
There was probably more, but **** these forums.


Comments:
- The entire conversation is around 5-20 man fleets. You bringing up 120+ man fleets is you bringing up 120 man fleets without any context to the conversation. Congratulations for muddying the conversation for no ******* reason.
- Yay, more talk about huge fleets. I've found that getting reps there faster isn't very useful if you don't have enough reps - but that's a natural effect of running in "small gangs" (which you apparently classify as less than 120-150 man?)
- Most of the game believes lots of **** that's just wrong - but the reality of the situation is that most of the game doesn't have experience running logis. And furthermore, most of the game doesn't have experience running the sole logi in a small gang (regardless of system sec). Thus - really, most of the game is working off of folk wisdom that's never been challenged.
- I can at least agree with that. **** these forums.

-Liang

I kinda prefer this condensed way of posting, might have to do it more often :D
Comments of my own:
-I don't really consider 5 man gangs to be fleets
-I never said that anything smaller than 120 counts as small, stop putting words in my mouth. (for the record I'd say about 20 and under counts as small for the purposes of debate, though I myself would define it as 10 or less)
-When the basis of the claim that most of the game thinks scimis are fine is the sheer number of people flying them, your argument that this is because they have no experience flying the ships that they're flying loses a fair bit of its validity.
Valoche Mrehl
Tactical Grace.
Vanguard.
#76 - 2012-02-08 19:07:38 UTC
Stop arguing with Liang. It's pointless.

Clearly (s)he's been blessed with insight by MOTHER AMAMAKE. Making comments in contrast to Liang's is just ignorant.

"we play at the same time... come kill me... blah blah blah" "scimis are faster so better... blah blah blah"

It's all BALDERDASH!

You fight in Amamake or it's just practice. You use solo-basi's in small gangs or you're a newb-plebian-sheep-boy.

Small gangs are defined as <20. This **** is in Merriam-webster AND Oxford. Don't be so ignorant

RESPECT LIANG! RESPECT HERETICS! RESPECT MOTHER AMAMAKE! Pirate
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#77 - 2012-02-08 19:21:32 UTC
Cambarus wrote:
I kinda prefer this condensed way of posting, might have to do it more often :D


There's a reason I switched to it. It saves me time and you don't lose too much in translation. The real problem comes across in you appearing really "cold fish" and kinda like a **** for enumerating points about why someone's an idiot.

Quote:

Comments of my own:
-I don't really consider 5 man gangs to be fleets
-I never said that anything smaller than 120 counts as small, stop putting words in my mouth. (for the record I'd say about 20 and under counts as small for the purposes of debate, though I myself would define it as 10 or less)
-When the basis of the claim that most of the game thinks scimis are fine is the sheer number of people flying them, your argument that this is because they have no experience flying the ships that they're flying loses a fair bit of its validity.


Ok, well obviously the discussion revolves around "small gangs". Any commentary regarding 120 man nano gangs (seriously, wtf?) is at best off topic and muddying the water unnecessarily. Are you done talking about blobs yet?

As to the meat of the point, the graph looks something like this:

(Group A) LOTS OF PEOPLE -> (Group B) Some people fly logis sometimes (this is you) -> (Group C) Even fewer people fly logis in small gangs -> (Group D) Almost nobody flies solo logis in small gangs (this is me)

My points:
- Group A sometimes interfaces with Group B who got their opinions years ago from Group C. Most people in Group A and Group B (and most of group C) don't even believe that Group D exists.
- Most people (in all groups) believe that the Basilisk requires a cap buddy and is "too interdependent" to ever operate in Group D. However, the Basi reps more, tanks more, is fast enough, and has superior utility (6th high). It additionally does not require a cap buddy.

The overall effect? Everyone flies Scims out of ignorance.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Ireland VonVicious
Vicious Trading Company
#78 - 2012-02-08 21:13:35 UTC
My three favorite options:

Rattlesnake: Good for shield fleets as a support ship. Has huge health can put on a rr/neut and still put out some dps or any other kind of drone EW based on the fight. Unmatched versatility.

Field command ship: The name says it all. get a warefare link, dps, tank and last the fight.

Bhalgore: Good for armor fleets. Neuts,dps,health/tank. It has some versatility but is still more direct combat focused then a RS.


If those don't work for you just grab any high health / high dps ship.
Danny John-Peter
Blue Canary
Watch This
#79 - 2012-02-08 23:52:39 UTC
Wow, we really can't drop the issue I succinctly summed up already.

Le sigh.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#80 - 2012-02-09 00:24:45 UTC
Danny John-Peter wrote:
Wow, we really can't drop the issue I succinctly summed up already.

Le sigh.


This debate has been going for a year. He's just as stupid now as he was then - except then he had the advantage of being simply ignorant and bullheaded.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.