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Changing ECM
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Zyress
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#61 - 2012-02-17 22:25:57 UTC
Roosterton wrote:
Quote:
An ecm ship that can't stop a ship from firing on it, is a dead ecm ship, limiting their e-war won't help you abit when their 12000 hp alpha strikes your 8000 ehp tank


The same can be said about Rapiers. Their webs don't stop people from shooting them.
Or what about Curses, which can still be hit by HMLs and long range turrets?

In fact, I'd argue that the very fact that it's impossible to attack an ECM ship which is jamming you is one of their defining features that makes them OP above other forms of ewar.

Also, as mentioned previously in this thread, a Rook with a 1600 plate can easily achieve 20k+ EHP, which isn't much less than any other recons.


I fly ecm ships and I fly with other pilots who fly ecm ships, I have never seen a competent ecm pilot that had anything in the lows besides SDA's and yes they also have the ecm rigs and as many ecm modules as they can fit in their mids. In some very unreal situations where you know how many opponents you will face and what they are flying, say like in the tourney, then they may fit a tank and fewer race specific modules but the typical fit you run into in actaul non-fake tournament like situations have no such tank.
Zyress
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#62 - 2012-02-17 22:28:52 UTC
If an ecm ship misses a jam then it has to leave the field, it cannot tank, if they cannot jam weapons as you suggest then they may as well not even show up on the field
Roosterton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#63 - 2012-02-17 22:38:23 UTC
Zyress wrote:
If an ecm ship misses a jam then it has to leave the field, it cannot tank, if they cannot jam weapons as you suggest then they may as well not even show up on the field


It hardly "has" to leave the field. From 50km out, you can afford to miss a few jams on weaker targets, especially if the rest of your gang has them pinned down at close range.

This is the same for other recons, except other recons don't have a form of EWAR which specifically prevents them from getting shot. A Rapier or Curse, for example, will have to pull out long before a Rook will.
Zyress
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#64 - 2012-02-18 00:34:22 UTC
Roosterton wrote:
Zyress wrote:
If an ecm ship misses a jam then it has to leave the field, it cannot tank, if they cannot jam weapons as you suggest then they may as well not even show up on the field


It hardly "has" to leave the field. From 50km out, you can afford to miss a few jams on weaker targets, especially if the rest of your gang has them pinned down at close range.

This is the same for other recons, except other recons don't have a form of EWAR which specifically prevents them from getting shot. A Rapier or Curse, for example, will have to pull out long before a Rook will.


I've flown Rapiers too. They can actually fit a very respectable buffer shield tank, they only need 2 mids for 2 webs in most fleet fits and if they want to solo a 3rd mid for a faction point, their lows are completely available as are their rigs. Never flew a Pilgrim but its not their TD's I would fear but their Nos and Nuets, but even if they do fit TD's 2 are plenty and their lows are completely available for armor tanking and again their rig slots are totally availabe. Every slot except for highs on an ecm ship and every rig is devoted to ecm. They don't mount any tank, they can't take near the punishment a Rapier or Curse could, and typically an ecm ship is primary as soon as it is spotted. Not so a Rapier, don't know where a pilgrim would fall in the primary line up but I would imagine somewhere after logistics. So no wrong again, if the ecm ship can't stop anyone from firing at it, it may as well not show up at all.
Roosterton
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#65 - 2012-02-18 00:59:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Roosterton
Zyress wrote:
Roosterton wrote:
Zyress wrote:
If an ecm ship misses a jam then it has to leave the field, it cannot tank, if they cannot jam weapons as you suggest then they may as well not even show up on the field


It hardly "has" to leave the field. From 50km out, you can afford to miss a few jams on weaker targets, especially if the rest of your gang has them pinned down at close range.

This is the same for other recons, except other recons don't have a form of EWAR which specifically prevents them from getting shot. A Rapier or Curse, for example, will have to pull out long before a Rook will.


I've flown Rapiers too. They can actually fit a very respectable buffer shield tank, they only need 2 mids for 2 webs in most fleet fits and if they want to solo a 3rd mid for a faction point, their lows are completely available as are their rigs. Never flew a Pilgrim but its not their TD's I would fear but their Nos and Nuets, but even if they do fit TD's 2 are plenty and their lows are completely available for armor tanking and again their rig slots are totally availabe. Every slot except for highs on an ecm ship and every rig is devoted to ecm. They don't mount any tank, they can't take near the punishment a Rapier or Curse could, and typically an ecm ship is primary as soon as it is spotted. Not so a Rapier, don't know where a pilgrim would fall in the primary line up but I would imagine somewhere after logistics. So no wrong again, if the ecm ship can't stop anyone from firing at it, it may as well not show up at all.


We have two potential variables:
A) That the Rook/ECM ship fits an armor buffer tank, which diminishes its jamming capability but bolsters its tank.
B) That the Rook/ECM ship fits no tank and all out EWAR, which bolsters its jamming abilities.

Thus, the ECM ship will either tank decently -OR- jam very well, preventing it from getting shot. Your post assumes that it can do neither, and thus, that it can be driven off the field more easily than other EWAR ships, something that is not true.

Either way, even if you were right, it doesn't change the fact that the chance-based ECM mechanic is crap.

EDIT: iirc, the origin of this discussion was that my idea would prevent ECM ships from keeping stuff from shooting at them, which would make them die really easily, so you thought my idea was too much of a nerf. This is a valid point, and I wouldn't be against a partial buff to the tanks of Rooks/Falcons if my idea went through.