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Changing ECM
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Hedion University Amarr Empire 12
Limerance Zet-Giry Hedion University Amarr Empire Likes received: 12	#41 - 2012-02-07 15:03:30 UTC Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote: I've never seen a ship be completely disabled by a stasis webifier.... I've never seen a ship be completely immobilized by a ECM...

Fronkfurter McSheebleton

Horse Feathers

CAStabouts

Likes received: 276

#42 - 2012-02-07 15:06:18 UTC | Edited by: Fronkfurter McSheebleton

Limerance Zet-Giry wrote:

Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote:

I've never seen a ship be completely disabled by a stasis webifier....

I've never seen a ship be completely immobilized by a ECM...

I've never seen a ship completely immobilized by a web, either.

Also, I'd like to point out that even with its boosted range, ECM still out ranges a huginn's webs by far, as well as a lachesis's point.

thhief ghabmoef


Limerance Zet-Giry Hedion University Amarr Empire Likes received: 12	#43 - 2012-02-07 15:06:46 UTC Roosterton wrote: Also, this. ECM is useful in every single situation. It's a jack-of-all-trades, and for a jack-off-all-trades, it's very good. It can completely shut down any ship based on a mechanic which is, inherently, random. Actually, ECM in real life works exactly in that way. Why don't you asking God to change this?


Limerance Zet-Giry Hedion University Amarr Empire Likes received: 12	#44 - 2012-02-07 15:08:33 UTC Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote: I've never seen a ship completely immobilized by a web, either. You need two webs and one scrambler, to completely immobilize ship with 100% guarantee - three modules. Three ECM modules will just prevent ship from shooting with good probability (not 100%) Looks like ECM should be boosted.

Fronkfurter McSheebleton

Horse Feathers

CAStabouts

Likes received: 276

#45 - 2012-02-07 15:11:28 UTC | Edited by: Fronkfurter McSheebleton

Limerance Zet-Giry wrote:

Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote:

I've never seen a ship completely immobilized by a web, either.

You need two webs and one scrambler, to completely immobilize ship with 100% guarantee - three modules.
Three ECM modules will just prevent ship from shooting with good probability (not 100%)
Looks like ECM should be boosted.

Three ecm modules will reduce the other ship to uselessness. A completely tackled ship can still fight back.

And if we're bringing other modules into this, what would be more useless...a scrammed and jammed ship, or a scrammed and webbed one?

And let's not forget the fact that we're completely ignoring the actual ewar bonus on the bellicose hull. What's more useless, a scrammed and jammed ship, or a scrammed and target painted ship? "Oh no! My cruiser is now the size of a battlecruiser!"

thhief ghabmoef

Roosterton

Sebiestor Tribe

Minmatar Republic

Likes received: 363

#46 - 2012-02-07 15:15:56 UTC | Edited by: Roosterton

Limerance Zet-Giry wrote:

Roosterton wrote:

1600mm plate, Explosive hardener, DCU. Everything else is whatever you want. You could bring it even higher if you fitted trimarks, but most people tend to like those slots for ECM enhancing rigs. Because of how good ECM is.

And no signal dispersion amplifiers, yeah? You must be joking. Either you use Maelstrom without even a single Gyrostabilizer?

Roosterton wrote:

Missed that. But in that case, ECM will not be used at all. Why to ECM scramming/webbing enemy, if you can just shoot him? Absolutely no sense in such ECM.

It's usually a tradeoff between an armor tank, which leaves lots of midslots open for more jammers, or a shield tank, which leaves lots of low slots open for signal dispersion amplifiers. I don't know which one is more favored, but I do recall seeing plenty of armor Rooks in the last alliance tourney. You can still use your rig slots for ECM enhancing mods. If you *really* want max ECM strength, dropping the explo hardener for a SDA will only bring your EHP down to 23k.

As for the second point, I can think of plenty of reasons. Maybe your gang is primarily consisting of frigates, fighting in web range; you jam out the target so that he can't web any of the frigs so that they can run circles around him and slowly whittle him to death.

Maybe the opposing gang is using a lot of kiting scimis who you can't catch or hit, so you ECM them to force them to either warp off or move in close, at which point they're less useful.

Maybe the enemies are using kiting Vagas with a 24km point range; you can reduce their point range and thus give your pilots the option to either warp off, or stick around hoping the Vagas get closer.

Maybe your fleet is being decimated and there's a Lachesis pointing all your squadmates, so you ECM his point range and allow your allies to escape safely.

Limerance Zet-Giry

Hedion University

Amarr Empire

Likes received: 12

#47 - 2012-02-07 15:18:54 UTC

Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote:

Completely tackled ship either completely cannot fight back - if it is big, and cannot shoot at fast orbiting enemy, or it is small, then it will die immediately without speed tanking. So two webs and one scram makes ship completely useless and leave no chance to escape additionally. No chances completely

Jammed ship can escape, and it has chances to fight back if ECM will fail on next cycle.

Also, to make ship completely useless with webs/scram you need only 3 med slots. To completely jam it, you must use all med slots, and even in that case you can fail. Target can always escape, and can even fight back sometimes.

Looks like ECM still should be seriously boosted.

Roosterton

Sebiestor Tribe

Minmatar Republic

Likes received: 363

#48 - 2012-02-07 15:22:46 UTC | Edited by: Roosterton

Quote:

Completely tackled ship either completely cannot fight back - if it is big, and cannot shoot at fast orbiting enemy,

I'm sorry, but how? A webbed/scrammed battleship will still be able to web down the fast, orbiting enemies, shoot the fast, orbiting enemies, and tell its drones to fire on the fast, orbiting enemies. It'll also be able to neut out whatever's webbing it to get a chance to pull range, or neut out the fast, orbiting enemies to make them slower.

A jammed ship can wait for its drones to randomly pick a target, and sit there while everything kills it. Yeah...


Limerance Zet-Giry Hedion University Amarr Empire Likes received: 12	#49 - 2012-02-07 15:23:39 UTC Roosterton wrote: If you really want max ECM strength, dropping the explo hardener for a SDA will only bring your EHP down to 23k. . So you fit one Gyrostabilizer, when you want max DPS for Maelstrom? People who want max ECM strength, fit SDA into all low slots. No tank at all. And still no 100% warranty that there will be no fight back.

Roosterton

Sebiestor Tribe

Minmatar Republic

Likes received: 363

#50 - 2012-02-07 15:25:09 UTC

Quote:

So you fit one Gyrostabilizer, when you want max DPS for Maelstrom?

People who want max ECM strength, fit SDA into all low slots. No tank at all. And still no 100% warranty that there will be no fight back.

Why do you need 100% warranty? Just stay ~50km from the fight, and even if you do miss a jam they won't be able to hit you before you can rejam. Besides, with 6 racial jammers you shouldn't have problems keeping 2-3 BC's locked out of the fight for the majority of the time.

Fronkfurter McSheebleton

Horse Feathers

CAStabouts

Likes received: 276

#51 - 2012-02-07 15:45:15 UTC | Edited by: Fronkfurter McSheebleton

Limerance Zet-Giry wrote:

A webbed + scrammed ship is not useless, and the examples you've given are situational at best. We're talking about ewar hulls here, and there aren't a lot of ships that couldn't hit a huginn/rapier. Missiles don't care about transversal, and guns still have that off chance of blasting it to smithereens. Further, two webs does not completely immobilize a ship. For example, a hurricane with a MWD on will still be moving 251m/s unless someone gets a scram on it, meaning anything bigger than a destroyer (or stabber...) will have to burn to keep up.

Also, I do like how you've added a scram onto the web ship, but not the jammer. A a jammed + scrammed ship is dead in the water. You can also easily permajam most anything that isn't a battleship or T3 with 2-3 jammers, which is definitely not all 6 of a rook/falcon's mid slots.

And we're STILL completely ignoring the fact that the other bonus on the bellicose hull is still nigh on useless.

thhief ghabmoef

Limerance Zet-Giry

Hedion University

Amarr Empire

Likes received: 12

#52 - 2012-02-07 16:04:40 UTC

Roosterton wrote:

So you suggest to spend a slot, to get a chance to confront webs/scram? Ok, i suggest you to spend a slot for ECCM module, to become almost immune to ECM.

ECM still looks weaker than web/scram

Limerance Zet-Giry

Hedion University

Amarr Empire

Likes received: 12

#53 - 2012-02-07 16:06:52 UTC

Roosterton wrote:

By the way, if you don't like ECM because it completely disables target lock - i suppose you also should dislike warp disruptors/scramblers - just because they completely disable warp.

Do you agree then, that disruptors/scramblers should NOT prevent warp, instead, they should just increase time necessary for entering warp?

Limerance Zet-Giry

Hedion University

Amarr Empire

Likes received: 12

#54 - 2012-02-07 16:16:01 UTC

Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote:

...there aren't a lot of ships that couldn't hit a huginn/rapier...

You can also easily permajam most anything that isn't a battleship or T3 with 2-3 jammers, which is definitely not all 6 of a rook/falcon's mid slots.

And we're STILL completely ignoring the fact that the other bonus on the bellicose hull is still nigh on useless.

Nonsense. Nobody can hit rapier, if rapier doesn't want it - it just runs away.

Also nonsense about permajam. One jammer gives strength ~10. So anything which has sensor strength greater than 10, cannot be permajammed at all. It can be jammed with probability 80, 90, 95% - but not permajammed.

And now let's look at http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/ECCM_-_Omni_II
Single module, which makes almost any ship, except frigate probably, completely immune to permajam.

ECM still needs boosting.

Roosterton

Sebiestor Tribe

Minmatar Republic

Likes received: 363

#55 - 2012-02-07 16:26:36 UTC | Edited by: Roosterton

Limerance Zet-Giry wrote:

Roosterton wrote:

So you suggest to spend a slot, to get a chance to confront webs/scram? Ok, i suggest you to spend a slot for ECCM module, to become almost immune to ECM.

ECM still looks weaker than web/scram

Except that those modules aren't there specifically to confront web/scram. Those modules are there because they are actually useful combat modules to hold down opposing ships and hit them well, or to control range, or to zap an opponent's cap. Compare and contrast with ECCM, which, I say again, works only against ECM.

Quote:

No, because a warp disrupted ship is still very useful in a fight. A target jammed ship is not. Not to mention, you can fight back against warp disruption by shooting the ship which is warp disrupting you - you can't shoot anything when you're jammed.

Quote:

Ok, i suggest you to spend a slot for ECCM module, to become almost immune to ECM.

This shows how little you actually know about a mechanic.

Hurricane with an ECCM - Ladar II. What chance does it have of being jammed by a Rook with ECM - Phase Inverter II? 45.3% of the time. Yep, even having sacrificed a midslot, you're still getting jammed almost half the time by a single jammer. "Almost immune" my ass. If two phase inverters are slapped on you, that chance shoots up to 70%. Yeah, sorry, but ECCM currently isn't good enough.

Quote:

One jammer gives strength ~10.

The fact that you're using multispectral jammers goes further to prove that you don't know that which you speak of. Using 6 racial jammers is better than using 6 multispecs, every time.

And finally: LOL, ECCM OMNI Lol

Edit; my math with the Machariel's point range was actually wrong. Three multispectral jammers will reduce it to 11km longpoint range. However, if you use racial jammers with a jam strength of 13.5, the Mach's point range would be only 4.3km. In hindsight, this seems a little weak, so I'd definitely advocate for jam strength to be slightly increased if this idea is ever implemented. Bear in mind, though, that Machariels do have amongst the highest sensor strength of all subcaps.

Roosterton

Sebiestor Tribe

Minmatar Republic

Likes received: 363

#56 - 2012-02-17 21:32:30 UTC | Edited by: Roosterton

So anyway, today in Tama I was pointed at the sun in my MWD Enyo by a kite Malediction. His fleet warped in, but I microwarped around to avoid taking any hits from their big tier 3 BC guns; we chased around for awhile, they brought several different ships in to try catching my Enyo. Eventually, in comes a Dramiel; finally, a good fight! Lock, web, scram.... jammed by three hornet EC's. Ack, was just bad luck, maybe in 20 seconds I can kill it. Meanwhile, a Sabre and some other stuff is landing a short distance off - I've got to get this Dramiel off me or I'm toast. This is going to be an epic fight... ****, jammed again. By another hornet. TWICE IN A ROW.

(Did I mention that the chance of three hornets getting two jams in a row on an Enyo is ~0.6%?)

This is a life-sucking wound on EVE and is utterly annoying and unfun to deal with. Chance-based mechanics are absolute bullshit, and ECM is the very definition of a chance based mechanic.

Also, bump.

Zyress

Caldari Provisions

Caldari State

Likes received: 140

#57 - 2012-02-17 21:53:46 UTC

Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote:

Limerance Zet-Giry wrote:

Fronkfurter McSheebleton wrote:

I've never seen a ship completely immobilized by a web, either.

Well, if the scrammed and Jammed one is fast enough without a mwd it can still get a away, where as the scrammed and webbed one is completely screwed

Roosterton

Sebiestor Tribe

Minmatar Republic

Likes received: 363

#58 - 2012-02-17 21:59:18 UTC

Quote:

Well, if the scrammed and Jammed one is fast enough without a mwd it can still get a away,

Extremely unlikely. If you're jammed, it means you can't use your own short scram, which means everything trying to catch you can MWD to keep up with you, resulting n your demise whether or not you're webbed. The only scenario in which this may apply is for a 100MN AB Tengu, capable of going at nano speeds without a MWD. For everything else.... nope.

Zyress

Caldari Provisions

Caldari State

Likes received: 140

#59 - 2012-02-17 22:04:54 UTC

Roosterton wrote:

Limerance Zet-Giry wrote:

Roosterton wrote:

Eh, no, your typical Armor Rook gets 27k EHP with just an armor tank, still having room for 6 jammers. Try again.

Sounds like "typical Maelstrom gets NN EHP with just an armor tank, still having room for 8 autocannons. Let's nerf it".

Show me your fit of Rook with 27k EHP and 6 jammers.

Quote:

Very, very bad idea. Falcon and Widow will be absolute winners against any other subcaps in 1x1.

Let's consider Machariel. It has 26 LADAR sensor strength, and with has effective shooting range 80km (usually it is lesser).

Falcon with good skills has strength ~9 for multi-racial jammer. This means, that each jammer will multiply shooting range of that Machariel by 0.3462. This means, that 3 jammers will reduce shooting range to ~3.5km. Machariel is dead without any chances.

Currently, if Falcon fails to jam Machariel even once - it will be dead. Actually your suggestion is incredible overpowering for ECM. Completely inacceptable.

Did you read the post? The range decrease applies to EWAR and RR. The Machariel still has full capability to shoot out to a range, it just won't be able to scram or web unless it gets right up close to the target.

Also, your math is incorrect as well. 9/26 = 0.34, which is how much we decrease the range by, not how much we multiply the range by. We'd actually be multiplying by (1.0-0.34) 0.66 for each jammer.

So let's take a 24km point:

24*0.66*(87% of 0.66)*(57% of 0.66) = 3.4km.

So you were right that its pointing distance will be 3.4km... But it will still be able to shoot out to the distance that it currently does. The result in this battle would likely be a draw, since the Machariel would pummel the Widow but the Widow would get away due to nerfed pointing range from the Machariel. Previously, the Mach wouldn't stand a chance in hell because it's permajammed. (Who doesn't fit minmatar jammers?)

An ecm ship that can't stop a ship from firing on it, is a dead ecm ship, limiting their e-war won't help you abit when their 12000 hp alpha strikes your 8000 ehp tank

Roosterton

Sebiestor Tribe

Minmatar Republic

Likes received: 363

#60 - 2012-02-17 22:09:02 UTC | Edited by: Roosterton

Quote:

An ecm ship that can't stop a ship from firing on it, is a dead ecm ship, limiting their e-war won't help you abit when their 12000 hp alpha strikes your 8000 ehp tank

The same can be said about Rapiers. Their webs don't stop people from shooting them.
Or what about Curses, which can still be hit by HMLs and long range turrets?

In fact, I'd argue that the very fact that it's impossible to attack an ECM ship which is jamming you is one of their defining features that makes them OP above other forms of ewar.

Also, as mentioned previously in this thread, a Rook with a 1600 plate can easily achieve 20k+ EHP, which isn't much less than any other recons.

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