Player Features and Ideas Discussion

A while back, I and many others were thrilled at the idea of a new and improved probing system. One that narrowed combat probing to just a single probe type, instead of over a dozen different probes. One that would allow us to warp the probes around to find targets instead of having to have a bookmark within 2au of the intended victim before we could even drop the probe. What a wonderful change that seemed at the time.

This was back in the glory days of low sec piracy and I was a full fledged pirate. I killed, raped and pillaged. I ransomed every shiny-ish thing I got my hands on, including t1 BC's. But probing out ships was next to impossible under the old probing system. It required a massive SP investment in probing, high end implants and a fair bit of time to get a missioner. The above changes to the probing system over joyed people like me at first. There were so many low sec lvl4 runners in pimped ships to gank. I just couldn't find them.

Then those changes went live (this is the current probing system) and there was a month long massacre of low sec missioners. I set my own personal record of around 40 solo kills in a single 24 hour period during this time. But that glory proved fleeting. Everyone who had been running lvl4's in low sec stopped. It only took 30s to probe out a raven and any noob could do it. It was no longer a highly specialized set of skills, implants and tactical bookmarks. The low sec missioners learned and they learned fast. It didn't take long for low sec mission hubs to go from having 100 guys in them to having just 2-3.

The pirates with their new probes were simply too successful. No one could mission without their ok and thus it made more sense to return to high sec or do something else entirely.

Around this same time, motherships were considered pretty useless. They had twice the HP of normal carriers, twice the dps and clone vat bays but beyond that they didn't do anything special. They still used the triage mod and normal fighters. And as such, they were rightly considered to not be cost effective. Thus they were changed (not buffed). When they changed them, they thought about what 15-20B isk should get you. And the almost unanimous decision was a capital killing monster. The result was them getting 10x the HP of normal carriers, losing the triage mod and gaining the dps of 2x dreads through new fighter bombers.

Initially the change was meaningless as there weren't that many floating around. But word got around that they could stomp any capital or BS/BC fleet with near impunity thanks to high tank, high dps and mobility all at the same time. This lead to a point where SC's were dropping on everything and anything, which then resulted in every ship incapable of escaping an SC hotdrop being mothballed. Hence a 2nd nano-age where anything armor, even frigates, were largely shunned. SC's have since been nerfed so that they are no longer impervious to attack in null sec (they still mostly are in low) and slightly less useful against subcaps. And as a result some armor BC/BS gangs are starting to make appearances again.

The point in this wall of text is to point out why it is important to consider the other sides of any possible change to the game. I write this as a direct result of some other player's suggestion of removing the mwd+cloak trick for evading low sec gate camps. Whenever you make a major mechanic change, it will alter the way players play the game. Granting an advantage to the attacker will result in the defender taking additional precautions, which as I showed in the two above examples meant they simply didn't play.

There are already many balancing issues in game, we don't need to be creating more at this time. So please think about what you are proposing. Anything that grants you a short term advantage will almost certainly result in a long term problem. You absolutely must consider what it will mean to other players and how they will react to it. Anything that is good for you and bad for them will almost certainly be bad for you as well sooner or later. This applies to fighting against some changes as well (I'm looking at you vanguard incursion runners).

This is why I suggest the items I usually do. With the possible exception of the sub idea, which is mostly misunderstood.

If you put in items that makes survivability more likely, you push to make more people able to move back out into risky areas.

The quickest way to lose players in null, low, (or even quitting entirely), is to let them get killed in a way that they view as unfair, or feel that they have no hope avoiding.

Not everyone likes PvP, as the OP demonstrated with the mission runners leaving low sec en mass. If they feel like they can manage the risks, they might be more likely to keep trying.

Balance is when the most people agree they are having fun, more than anything else.

[quote=Simi Kusoni]Most mechanics that are suggested to increase new player's chances of survival are either redundant, as existing mechanics exist to fill the same role (see the current "gate probe idea" thread), or they are ripe for abuse by older, smarter players. There is also the fact that some of us like the idea of extremely dangerous (and subsequently highly profitable) space, other players would prefer to see null/low become high sec 2.0.

Anyway, in terms of game mechanics it's a fine line between rendering experienced players invincible and giving new players at least a chance at survival. But I think a more important method is not to focus on changing mechanics to make Eve safer, but instead to find a better way to teach new players to use the mechanics that already exist.

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I think OP is more looking to make it fair. Which I can dig. Comes a point to where people stop playing this game for fun and carry on with a win at all costs mindset. Not a bad thing....jsut at some point it breaks to you going are you f'ing serious? Just me but I like "fair fights". 4 man roam meets 8 man roam. Chance couple of those 8 will suck ass and be easy kills. gets it down to say...5 on 3 fast. This is a fair setup to me (jsut to show not looking for 2 v 2, 3 v 3....ain't getting that fair in this game lol).

Then you have the win at all costs setup. Same above. You kill off 3 ships, one of the leftovers pops cyno and its wtf ass raeping from hell. Me...jsut not partial to this setup. And its not sore loser syndrome. I have been on both sides of this. Turkey shoots don't thrill me. Even being the shooter.


Probing for example. I'd like ti see it go back to the old way. When someone found you...its was well you got me. Some effort was put into it, reward was earned. Some sp's spent to the process at least and the clunkier interface to fight with. New probing in effect and on an empire break on the combat char...vultures not even a week old in your rooms. Not a vulture whine...jsut be nice they actually broke a million in science sps to track you down as fast,

Mommies as well. If ccp would do jsut one little thing, I'd be okay with them. Just need to lose one small little role bonus. E-war immunity. Made them own mobiles in low sec. No bubbles, no consequences to hot drops. Drop on pirates, fw, etc get lol kills and poof gone. In low sec and 0.0 it be nice if at least a point locks em down. Again limited consequences to the hot drop. Need to scare up a dictor...and the dictors to replace them on bubble refresh runs while the posse forms up. Not alot of dictors on or nearby....its one successful drive by for the mommie.

No e-war immunity, hot drop it for the drive by and say hello to arazu and its lr point. Call in a falcon...with FB's and other drones they now have to hope will hit a useful target. That way killing them might be easier. Now its pick off cap, pick off cap, pick off screwed bs. Jammed, one lucky well tanked ship can say I got full drone aggro, logi's the longer you keep me alive the longer his little friends aren't killing other things. Mommie blob can't focus fire there goes a major imba. Did not need the mommie nerf put in place. No e-war immunity I'd consider not even touching what the last patch fixed.

CSM is trying to fix the latter. I jsut think its the wrong solution. I want any point to work, not jsut another mommie. And jsut because they put it up the chain, does not mean we will get it in game.

my mindset on this is these are fleet support ships and therefore should have a fleet with them. Hate using real world examples for internet pixels but....a super we'll say is like a modern day carrier. Bad ass ship, many cans of whoopass onboard. But.....that pig don't leave dock without a full fleet. Sub hunters in the air, on the sea and under it. Anti ship anti air assets both on the water and in the air. In short....the mofo rolls in a very deep crew.

What supers should be doing imo. Let them mess up some serious ****. But have them be big targets when they roll solo or with little or no support. Mommies with proper fleet support should have the support to smack down falcons, arazu, onyz, rifters, canes etc.

Mommy doing a drive by soloish...takes the chance that 1 or 2 contacts in local that cannot be found by the cyno scanning is not dangerous and comes up hictor/recon snake eyes well the its only fair his best hope is the "save me" fleet responds faster than the "try for kill the super" fleet does lol.

Screws them over a bit for the money I will admit. But they screwed themselves (well some of their brothers and sisters in arms did if not into the low sec ops) really. If supers would have stayed in 0.0....I might be more empathetic. Bolb killing blob...way of the world. They hit low sec. Where they even if the csm gets their way have almost no counters still. Some 0.0 burnouts in FW or pirate crews might have a super somewhere, scaring up a super for most fw or pirate crews jsut not a realistic ability however.

Ok, time to get back in touch with the reality of our culture. Whether it is pleasing to you or not, PERCEPTION dictates what reality is, for anything on this level.

It does not matter if the players CAN do something, if they do not know about it, or accept it. It does not exist to them.

These are the players we are trying to coax back, not the ones who never left because they figured out how to do something.

If that means redoing the game mechanics so they see something they like, so be it.

Ultimately, the game is not right, if the players don't think it is.

I have to agree, probing has become way too easy and the consequences are obvious.

Not sure if you were around in the early days, but I knew a couple of people that were very skilled at d-scan, warp and bookmark finding. True skill, with the minimal tools provided at the time.

That's not to say I'm against any changes. Some changes add to the game as well as making it easier, POS fuel blocks for example.

Nice post OP.

Love the OP, it's something that needed to be said.

Something I'd point out (having not ready any replies so forgive me if I'm repeating this) is that with probes now showing up on the directional scanner, it's nearly impossible to catch a mission/plex runner in lowsec/nullsec, as within 30 seconds of probes dropping, they're gone. Only those oblivious to their directional scanner get caught nowdays.

I keep coming back to the conclusion that EVE has evolved two different combat systems: PvP, and PvE. They do not intersect well at all, and to really fix the game, the current style of PvE has to go. People wouldn't be so concerned about going to low/null sec for missions and plexes if they had a pvp fitted ship, able to fight off pirates and do the mission without having to completely redo the fitting. Also, the pvp style of fighting is far more interesting than permatanking a bunch of red crosses on your overview and gradually whittling them down. Something to think about.