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Changes to wormhole mass limits ?

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Ajita al Tchar
Doomheim
#81 - 2012-02-13 17:36:53 UTC
Rob Kepie wrote:
CCP Greyscale wrote:

The exploit we patched in Crucible 1.1 means that information about the latest wormhole state is being propagated a little slower than it used to be. I talked to CCP Atlas just now and he says that the showinfo information was never intended to be robustly real-time, so it's possible that the slower information propagation is causing slightly longer delays in updating the showinfo information. My understanding is that this would be on the order of seconds or at the most minutes (ie, not hours or days), but there may be a change in behavior here.


For those insisting that the variance has changed, doesn't this paragraph explain that the wormhole mass status you are seeing may not be up-to-date? If the show info is showing old info, then you might be tricked into thinking it's still safe to jump when in fact the server has shrunk the wormhole to critical.

So I would suggest that the mass limits and the variances haven't changed. What has perhaps changed is that when wormholes shrink, clients won't find out until a bit later. The way to test this is to take a few minutes break between ship jumps during a collapse operation and see if the show info eventually updates with accurate info. For CCP Greyscale, is the visual feedback that the wormhole has shrunk also delayed, like the show info is?


This is a reasonable possibility in case of a wormhole that you didn't open, so you don't know if someone already took ten battleships through it and whatnot. However, when you know you opened a brand new static and you know that no one went through because you had someone looking at it starting at about five seconds after it spawned, you know pretty well how many ships of what mass you can take through before it collapses. The latter is the issue that a lot of people are describing. I agree that the apparent lack of properly updated information in show info (or in the wormhole graphic) might very well be something else, though.

Stealth Prowler boost Bear
Eikelhaven
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#82 - 2012-02-16 19:12:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Eikelhaven
Well damn, I mis-posted here. Wrong topic!
Goodluvins
Shadowlight Society
#83 - 2012-02-17 18:33:33 UTC
Please fix the mass limit problem with WHs.
Thanks.
Sarina Rhoda
Doomheim
#84 - 2012-02-18 15:11:20 UTC
Has this been looked into further yet ?
Cipher Jones
The Thomas Edwards Taco Tuesday All Stars
#85 - 2012-02-18 16:58:56 UTC
People are saying they spawned the WH themselves but it still had the wrong mass, so the information delay should have nothing to do with it.

However, pics or it didn't happen IMHO.I know if I had a carrier or orca and it got stuck because of what I thought was a bug, I sure as hell would screen shot it next time I went through.

Anyway I have not encountered the problem myself but I will actively seek it this weekend and try to get screens if I find anything "fishy".

internet spaceships

are serious business sir.

and don't forget it
Boodreau
The Awoken
Get Off My Lawn
#86 - 2012-02-19 05:36:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Boodreau
So, This topic is interesting.

My WH alliance was invaded by another alliance known to be somewhat neutral or even "friendly" with AHARM a couple days ago. They put our POS's re-inforced mode, with the first coming out earlier today (well, 17:00-ish eve time on 2/17/2012).

We countered with an attack of multiple cap ships (outnumbered them) and succeeded in destroying all their caps and some support ships, then our fleet decided to close the exit WH on them and trap them in while we wipe them out.

This c6 (we were in a c6, c6 static) was already at half mass when we jumped a carrier through it and then to bring him back through would close it. When he jumped, AHARM had a massive fleet sitting there. Around 40 pilots we figure, with 2 dreds at least and some say also a carrier. When our carrier jumped back, the WH should have closed behind him, and it did, only the entirety of the AHARM fleet, 2 dreds, possibly their own carrier, and all, were in our hole.

Being vastly outnumbered we fell to the attack.


So the question is (and yes its been submitted by some of our members via petition), is this an exploit? This hole that was supposedly less than 50% took basicaly 4 cap jumps and 30+ cruisers within 15-20 seconds.
Ampoliros
Aperture Harmonics
#87 - 2012-02-19 07:19:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Ampoliros
Boodreau wrote:
So, This topic is interesting.

My WH alliance was invaded by another alliance known to be somewhat neutral or even "friendly" with AHARM a couple days ago. They put our POS's re-inforced mode, with the first coming out earlier today (well, 17:00-ish eve time on 2/17/2012).

We countered with an attack of multiple cap ships (outnumbered them) and succeeded in destroying all their caps and some support ships, then our fleet decided to close the exit WH on them and trap them in while we wipe them out.

This c6 (we were in a c6, c6 static) was already at half mass when we jumped a carrier through it and then to bring him back through would close it. When he jumped, AHARM had a massive fleet sitting there. Around 40 pilots we figure, with 2 dreds at least and some say also a carrier. When our carrier jumped back, the WH should have closed behind him, and it did, only the entirety of the AHARM fleet, 2 dreds, possibly their own carrier, and all, were in our hole.

Being vastly outnumbered we fell to the attack.


So the question is (and yes its been submitted by some of our members via petition), is this an exploit? This hole that was supposedly less than 50% took basicaly 4 cap jumps and 30+ cruisers within 15-20 seconds.


Wasn't there personally, but our guys were quite bewildered by it as well. From our AARs, it sounds like we cross-jumped with our fleet + two caps when your archon came through expecting the hole would close behind us, but clearly something funny happened and everything got back in without any trouble. v0v
Hamatitio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#88 - 2012-02-19 07:38:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Hamatitio
Boodreau wrote:
So, This topic is interesting.

My WH alliance was invaded by another alliance known to be somewhat neutral or even "friendly" with AHARM a couple days ago. They put our POS's re-inforced mode, with the first coming out earlier today (well, 17:00-ish eve time on 2/17/2012).

We countered with an attack of multiple cap ships (outnumbered them) and succeeded in destroying all their caps and some support ships, then our fleet decided to close the exit WH on them and trap them in while we wipe them out.

This c6 (we were in a c6, c6 static) was already at half mass when we jumped a carrier through it and then to bring him back through would close it. When he jumped, AHARM had a massive fleet sitting there. Around 40 pilots we figure, with 2 dreds at least and some say also a carrier. When our carrier jumped back, the WH should have closed behind him, and it did, only the entirety of the AHARM fleet, 2 dreds, possibly their own carrier, and all, were in our hole.

Being vastly outnumbered we fell to the attack.


So the question is (and yes its been submitted by some of our members via petition), is this an exploit? This hole that was supposedly less than 50% took basicaly 4 cap jumps and 30+ cruisers within 15-20 seconds.


My best guess? The system couldn't handle processing the 35 ish jumps at once and lagged up.
Slaktoid
Perkone
Caldari State
#89 - 2012-02-19 08:34:53 UTC
Actually we used a Wormhole Stabilizer. This mod came out with the Cruicible 1.2 patch.
Aidamina Omen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#90 - 2012-02-19 09:25:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Aidamina Omen
Boodreau wrote:

So the question is (and yes its been submitted by some of our members via petition), is this an exploit? This hole that was supposedly less than 50% took basicaly 4 cap jumps and 30+ cruisers within 15-20 seconds.


I was there,

Wormhole mass wasn't below 50%, 20 ish cruisers rather then 30+ jumped.

That something odd happened with the wormhole is undeniable, but to cry wolf about an exploit being used is far fetched.

Most wormhole people already know that the wormhole behaviour has significantly changed since crusible 1.1, but this was done to fix an exploit with wormholes (reported by AHARM nonetheless.)

I agree that the current mechanics are flawed and that it needs looking into. As for the four cap jumps through one wormhole, we were as surprised as you were when that happened.

In this occasion it resulted in an extra carrier on the field for you guys, instead of it getting trapped on the wrong side(Our intention) so it should have actually been an advantage for you.
Komen
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#91 - 2012-02-19 10:02:45 UTC
Full-time hole dweller checking in - our corp also has noticed the holes behaving strangely. Mostly wider variance (and way more in the far reaches of variance) than before Cru 1.1/1.2. Also we saw a case of two battleships (100 mil ea.) coming through a D382 that was mass-crit with no more than 50 mil left in it. They both jumped simultaneously and got through.
Wyke Mossari
Staner Industries
#92 - 2012-02-19 10:46:01 UTC

The problem not the change, but is people have got used to 'gaming the system', chain collapsing wormholes until they get the outcome they want and expected this to continue, despite the fact it blatantly flouts the back-story of wormholes.

This change is a good thing, it better dovetails with the back-story and it promotes better games play with the fog of war.
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#93 - 2012-02-19 13:06:15 UTC
What might work is: Introduce a new probe type, which can be fitted into the core launcher, which will scan all w-hole within 2AU and give you detailed information after a few seconds.

No need for a new module, and most w-space fleets have multiple people with core probe launchers fitted.
Bloemkoolsaus
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#94 - 2012-02-19 13:36:48 UTC
Scrapyard Bob wrote:
What might work is: Introduce a new probe type, which can be fitted into the core launcher, which will scan all w-hole within 2AU and give you detailed information after a few seconds.

No need for a new module, and most w-space fleets have multiple people with core probe launchers fitted.


An interesting approach, but it doesn't solve the issue we're reading here about wh mass being fishy.
Boodreau
The Awoken
Get Off My Lawn
#95 - 2012-02-19 16:22:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Boodreau
Aidamina Omen wrote:
Boodreau wrote:

So the question is (and yes its been submitted by some of our members via petition), is this an exploit? This hole that was supposedly less than 50% took basicaly 4 cap jumps and 30+ cruisers within 15-20 seconds.


I was there,

Wormhole mass wasn't below 50%, 20 ish cruisers rather then 30+ jumped.

That something odd happened with the wormhole is undeniable, but to cry wolf about an exploit being used is far fetched.

Most wormhole people already know that the wormhole behaviour has significantly changed since crusible 1.1, but this was done to fix an exploit with wormholes (reported by AHARM nonetheless.)

I agree that the current mechanics are flawed and that it needs looking into. As for the four cap jumps through one wormhole, we were as surprised as you were when that happened.

In this occasion it resulted in an extra carrier on the field for you guys, instead of it getting trapped on the wrong side(Our intention) so it should have actually been an advantage for you.




We were just asking if it is a known exploit.


If it is a known issue that CCP considers an exploit. You guys used it, whether knowingly or not , and it resulted in us loosing our home and a few billions in ships. A loss that only happened due to a broken game mechanic that should not have happened.

We pay to play like you guys do, we pay to have battles such as that one. But we don't pay to have our stuff lost in a battle that was won due to a "bug" in the game allowing you guys to get an advantage that should not have ever been there.

The instant our carrier returned that WH should have disappeared. You maybe possibly could have gotten a couple of the cruiser class ships in, but no way your entire fleet with the dreds should have came in.


Here is a quote from the wiki:

Quote:
An exploit is when someone bypasses normal game mechanics, such as by utilizing a bug in the game, allowing him to take advantage of other players without them having any means of preventing it whatsoever. When this occurs, we implore you to contact your friendly neighbourhood GM as soon as possible so that they can investigate the incident, prevent it from happening to anyone else, and possibly reimburse you for your loss:



Well, it looks to use normal game mechanics were bypassed somehow, by accident or not is not up to us to determine. But we had no means to prevent it, as we didn't know it could happen. We know it should NOT have happened. So we contacted the "neighborhood" GM.

We have no ill will towards NorCorp, eXceed and their No HOles Barred Alliance, nor any towards AHARM and their K162 alliance. I have enjoyed bantering back and forth into local with them. And I hope we have more run ins in the future, it was fun. We are aggrivated that we lost pretty much everything over a broken mechanic.
Hamatitio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#96 - 2012-02-19 18:48:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Hamatitio
Boodreau wrote:
Aidamina Omen wrote:
Boodreau wrote:

So the question is (and yes its been submitted by some of our members via petition), is this an exploit? This hole that was supposedly less than 50% took basicaly 4 cap jumps and 30+ cruisers within 15-20 seconds.


I was there,

Wormhole mass wasn't below 50%, 20 ish cruisers rather then 30+ jumped.

That something odd happened with the wormhole is undeniable, but to cry wolf about an exploit being used is far fetched.

Most wormhole people already know that the wormhole behaviour has significantly changed since crusible 1.1, but this was done to fix an exploit with wormholes (reported by AHARM nonetheless.)

I agree that the current mechanics are flawed and that it needs looking into. As for the four cap jumps through one wormhole, we were as surprised as you were when that happened.

In this occasion it resulted in an extra carrier on the field for you guys, instead of it getting trapped on the wrong side(Our intention) so it should have actually been an advantage for you.




We were just asking if it is a known exploit.


If it is a known issue that CCP considers an exploit. You guys used it, whether knowingly or not , and it resulted in us loosing our home and a few billions in ships. A loss that only happened due to a broken game mechanic that should not have happened.

We pay to play like you guys do, we pay to have battles such as that one. But we don't pay to have our stuff lost in a battle that was won due to a "bug" in the game allowing you guys to get an advantage that should not have ever been there.

The instant our carrier returned that WH should have disappeared. You maybe possibly could have gotten a couple of the cruiser class ships in, but no way your entire fleet with the dreds should have came in.


Here is a quote from the wiki:

Quote:
An exploit is when someone bypasses normal game mechanics, such as by utilizing a bug in the game, allowing him to take advantage of other players without them having any means of preventing it whatsoever. When this occurs, we implore you to contact your friendly neighbourhood GM as soon as possible so that they can investigate the incident, prevent it from happening to anyone else, and possibly reimburse you for your loss:



Well, it looks to use normal game mechanics were bypassed somehow, by accident or not is not up to us to determine. But we had no means to prevent it, as we didn't know it could happen. We know it should NOT have happened. So we contacted the "neighborhood" GM.

We have no ill will towards NorCorp, eXceed and their No HOles Barred Alliance, nor any towards AHARM and their K162 alliance. I have enjoyed bantering back and forth into local with them. And I hope we have more run ins in the future, it was fun. We are aggrivated that we lost pretty much everything over a broken mechanic.


To say that this bug directly resulted in you losing your home and fleet is very far fetched to be honest. The "what if" scenarios are never looked at from a biased perspective and as such your judgement is clouded.
pierre arthos
Overload This
#97 - 2012-02-19 21:43:58 UTC
This may sound harsh, but I think the reason you lost your fleet was because you were sat on an unscouted hole. If you'd put a scout through, you'd have seen us formed up and we'd have lost the element of suprise.

Now, something definitely went weird with the hole mass limit, but that only allowed your Archon to die in its home system rather than in Nova. We jumped in as soon as our scout reported that you'd jumped an Archon into Nova. We were as suprised as you when your Archon made it back! So, I don't think any broken game mechanic or "exploit" made any real bearing on the outcome.

I'm sure you'll come back stronger for the experience, looking forward to the next time.
corbexx
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#98 - 2012-02-19 22:09:00 UTC
I went through and did the all teh mass calculations for what went through and back

3 t3 scouts both ways 108 million mass total mass so far 108 million mass
frig both ways 2 million mass total mass 110 million mass
archon 1113 million mass total mass 1213 million mass
moros 1292 million mass total mass 2505 million mass
sub caps * 317 million mass total mass 2822 million mass (small wh could close here)
2nd moros 1292 million mass total mass 4114 million mass (wh should be closed now)
archon return trip 1113 million mass total mass 5227 million mass


* our sub caps were 5 guardians 3 lokis 7 legions 4 prots devoter eos and cheetah

list is in order of stuff being jumped i guess that stuff jumping from both sides at very similar times caused the issues

Corbexx for CSM X - Wormholes still deserve better
Komen
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#99 - 2012-02-19 23:20:53 UTC
As an addendum to my earlier: I'm sitting staring at a D382 which was opened by us at 05:33 EVT last night. It's now 23:08 on the eve clock. D382's last 16 hours (plus downtime, we've found). So this one's pushing 17.5 hours, that's the normal life, plus downtime, plus an extra hour.

This has been going on since Crucifixable 1.1/1.2. SOMETHING got changed, Greyscale - if it's not anything directly with the wormholes, then some other system related to them changed.

I am fine with wormholes being random, but up until now they've had observable patterns that made dealing with them possible. Make them too random and it becomes pointless to try and set up shop inside w-space, thus bringing to an end an entirely new playstyle (and in my opinion, really the only reason I'm still in Eve). Sort of like removing the jump data from APIs for wormholes - such a half-step measure. CCP could have gone further and removed all the API data, thus reducing us to what we could observe through scouting and intel-gathering. I would be fine with that (and I'm basically running around looking for piloted ships outside POS to splodify).

Fake-edit: As I was typing and doing other things, the 05:33 time-popped. About an hour and 15 minutes late.
Boodreau
The Awoken
Get Off My Lawn
#100 - 2012-02-20 00:39:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Boodreau
pierre arthos wrote:
This may sound harsh, but I think the reason you lost your fleet was because you were sat on an unscouted hole. If you'd put a scout through, you'd have seen us formed up and we'd have lost the element of suprise.

Now, something definitely went weird with the hole mass limit, but that only allowed your Archon to die in its home system rather than in Nova. We jumped in as soon as our scout reported that you'd jumped an Archon into Nova. We were as suprised as you when your Archon made it back! So, I don't think any broken game mechanic or "exploit" made any real bearing on the outcome.

I'm sure you'll come back stronger for the experience, looking forward to the next time.



Why were you surprised when our Archon made it back. He jumped back before your fleet did.

As far as corbexx's calculations, did you calculate the mass of the modules on the ships? Did you calculate the mass of the ships that had jumped through that hole a few times already.

The hole shrank once when our archon jumped into that system.

Even in the event the calculations were correct, he admitted at least the mass of one of the cap ships should not have made it.


So basically, this whole situation, even if not an exploit that you guys used to your advantage, should not have happened is a situation that CCP should look at cause the WH may not have behaved properly.

On a similar note, I have a cloaky toon still in said C6, who just got several screenshots of NorCorp pulling out. I got the window open showing the hole "had its stability reduced, but not to a critical degree", meaning it is less than 45%. They warp a fenrir, 2 thanatos, and a naglefar to it. The Fenrir jumps. Then a revelation shows up. They all jump practically simultaneously, one of the thanys is a bit behind the rest in activating.

Now only the Nag jumps successfully and the hole closes. The WH mechanics worked properly by my figuring. No issue here.

The question is, why were they trying to jump all of them at the same time when they should have known that all the ships would not make it? Unless they also knew there was a chance they all made it, and therefore using an exploit? If all of them had of made it (as was the case with the AHARM fleet coming in), I would have proof of a possible mechanic exploit (and if CCP checks the logs, they will see it from the fleet fight).