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Marauders: Underwhelming. Fix Ideas
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Bubanni
Corus Aerospace
#121 - 2012-02-21 20:10:58 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
So I posted on another marauder thread my golem fit I used to use and all the stats.

While it's quite tanky, with quite a lot of dps, it's still weakened by it's size and sensor strength.

In noting that I realized, apart from tractor and salvager bonuses, most of it's issues could be adjusted without actually adjusting the marauders themselves.

In the case of the golem, the only issues I had were as noted, sensors and size. However, my sensor strength could easily be fixed by removing jamming from most high sec missions except for the occational special mission where it would fit in good as a challenge. Now, my size could be adressed by simply removing the t2 misisle penalties the same way they did with other t2 ammo. This means that i'll be able to go normal speed when using javelin and speed can help tank some, then with rage i'll still have the same sig radius, so more tanky.
personally, apart from salvage and tractor, that's the only 2 adjustments the golem could use and the suggested changes don't effect the functionality of the ship or the weakness CCP gave it to keep it a pve ship.

Now, everyone that is has a different style Marauder, you obviously won't have to worry about jamming if they take out most jamming missions, so you sensor strength is figured out, and we know we all want a salvage and tractor bonus, so that is figured out, but what other issues does you ship have? Is it range, is it tank, is it cap, or cpu, or what?

Perhaps instead of filling this thread with problems problem problem, we can simply say, here's the problem, and here's a possible simple fix. Example

Golem
Problem - size
Fix - Take away penalty for t2 missiles

Problem - Sensor strength
Fix - Remove jamming from all but a small, select few missions.

I would suggest changes for other ships, but I have no idea what they need cause I don't fly them...


+1 thats a good start, besides what he said I see no other real problems with marauders are PvE ships, they are far better than other t1 battleships for the job, faction ships can however be better sometimes but that has nothing to do with anything since they are in same price range and marauders have some abilities the faction battleships don't, like more tank and ability to salvage on the go, something the faction battleships dont in comparison... and the noctis has nothing to do with anything about the marauder even if it's a better salvager, it doesn't make the marauder worse than before.

Supercap nerf - change ewar immunity https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=194759 Module activation delay! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1180934
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#122 - 2012-02-21 20:31:32 UTC
Bubanni wrote:

+1 thats a good start, besides what he said I see no other real problems with marauders are PvE ships, they are far better than other t1 battleships for the job, faction ships can however be better sometimes but that has nothing to do with anything since they are in same price range and marauders have some abilities the faction battleships don't, like more tank and ability to salvage on the go, something the faction battleships dont in comparison... and the noctis has nothing to do with anything about the marauder even if it's a better salvager, it doesn't make the marauder worse than before.


Perhaps one change that they could do to better other marauders is assemble their bonuses so that they're more like the Golem.

What I mean by this is set their bonuses so that pretty much everything within 60km is optimal.

So, when it comes to effectiveness at ranges, all Marauders will have the same effectiveness, so they'd be able to hit anything from 0-60km. Now, this doesn't address the fact that the golem would still be more effective because it can change damage types, but perhaps simply flying missions for the faction to which your marauder belongs could be all that's needed to address that issue. That or perhaps CCP could design new ammo for turrets that gives them more damage functionality.
Hans Momaki
State War Academy
Caldari State
#123 - 2012-02-21 21:47:37 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
Bubanni wrote:

+1 thats a good start, besides what he said I see no other real problems with marauders are PvE ships, they are far better than other t1 battleships for the job, faction ships can however be better sometimes but that has nothing to do with anything since they are in same price range and marauders have some abilities the faction battleships don't, like more tank and ability to salvage on the go, something the faction battleships dont in comparison... and the noctis has nothing to do with anything about the marauder even if it's a better salvager, it doesn't make the marauder worse than before.


Perhaps one change that they could do to better other marauders is assemble their bonuses so that they're more like the Golem.

What I mean by this is set their bonuses so that pretty much everything within 60km is optimal.

So, when it comes to effectiveness at ranges, all Marauders will have the same effectiveness, so they'd be able to hit anything from 0-60km. Now, this doesn't address the fact that the golem would still be more effective because it can change damage types, but perhaps simply flying missions for the faction to which your marauder belongs could be all that's needed to address that issue. That or perhaps CCP could design new ammo for turrets that gives them more damage functionality.


The golem would still suffer from switching ammo quite frequently.. besides that, 60KM is way too low for mission running, and a prop mod on golem is inferiour ( Hi@TP ) in most cases. Personally, I won't use any short-ranged weapon, unless it's a mach.
My opinion ofcourse, but at the moment, the Golem is a lawlexpensive, useless piece of junk. I stay with my 900 dps Cruise-CNR and my noctis alt. Because... it's just cheaper and better.

The problem is, Golem lacks range and dmg application. Most of this is related to the mew-weapon system. But even if they fix that through fixing torps/CM's, I would still use the CNR, because the golem is offering nothing worthwhile.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#124 - 2012-02-21 22:09:26 UTC
Hans Momaki wrote:
The golem would still suffer from switching ammo quite frequently.. besides that, 60KM is way too low for mission running, and a prop mod on golem is inferiour ( Hi@TP ) in most cases. Personally, I won't use any short-ranged weapon, unless it's a mach.
My opinion ofcourse, but at the moment, the Golem is a lawlexpensive, useless piece of junk. I stay with my 900 dps Cruise-CNR and my noctis alt. Because... it's just cheaper and better.

The problem is, Golem lacks range and dmg application. Most of this is related to the mew-weapon system. But even if they fix that through fixing torps/CM's, I would still use the CNR, because the golem is offering nothing worthwhile.


With the right skills the golem is actually quite effective. When I had mine i would 3-4 shot bs's with no problems. 60km range was a valid trade off for that kind of dps. Not to mention I has a pretty massive tank on it, though it wasn't cap stable. With 2 target painters, it was quite effective dps. Again though, the only problems I had were that my size negated the bonus tank, and my sensor strength negated being able to do caldari missions in general.
Hans Momaki
State War Academy
Caldari State
#125 - 2012-02-21 23:30:20 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:


With the right skills the golem is actually quite effective. When I had mine i would 3-4 shot bs's with no problems. 60km range was a valid trade off for that kind of dps. Not to mention I has a pretty massive tank on it, though it wasn't cap stable. With 2 target painters, it was quite effective dps. Again though, the only problems I had were that my size negated the bonus tank, and my sensor strength negated being able to do caldari missions in general.


Well, how many missions are out there, with BS's under 40 KM away? (the golem shines here)
How many missions have more BS's then cruisers in it? With my CNR, I can two hit most cruisers with T1 Ammo. Furys tend to kill BS's in 5 Volleys too. I Fail to see an improvment here, especially with the drawbacks the golem is having. Try missions like blockade // mining mis. // AE with your limited range..




Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#126 - 2012-02-22 00:13:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Joe Risalo
Hans Momaki wrote:

Well, how many missions are out there, with BS's under 40 KM away? (the golem shines here)
How many missions have more BS's then cruisers in it? With my CNR, I can two hit most cruisers with T1 Ammo. Furys tend to kill BS's in 5 Volleys too. I Fail to see an improvment here, especially with the drawbacks the golem is having. Try missions like blockade // mining mis. // AE with your limited range..


OK, my fit

Rigs
Hydraulic bay thrusters II
Rocket Fuel Cache Partition II

Lows
4 x ballistic control system II

Mids
2x phased navigation array (target painter)
Gist x-type large shield booster
Photon scattering field II
3 x invuln field II (when omni tanking a mission)

Highs
4 x siege missile launcher 2

I have missile bombardment and missile projection to lvl 5. So
Javelin - 715 dps (fairly good applied due to 2 tps) at about 65.6km(58 with accel time)
Rage - 1016 dps (fairly good applied at bs's due to 2tps) at 38.9km(32 with accel time)

I have enough cap for 4m 32s.
Tank when in omni fit
em- 468
therm - 459
kin - 524
Exp - 550
I can pull out much more tank and have a bit more cap if I tank mission specific, and if you wanna spend the big bucks and get a pithum a-type medium shield booster, then
Your tank will go down by about 40 points, but you'll have 8 min of cap, and if you buy faction or ded space resistances then it will come back up and you'll probably be cap stable.

You may have great dps at great range, but I have awesome dps at close range, with much more tank, and much more effective dps thanks to the 2 target painters. Fit 2 target painters on a raven navy and you'll be hurting for tank.

P.S.
I just fitted out a raven Navy with 7 cruise launchers and the lows loaded down with ballistic controls.
With all skills lvl 5 and fury cruise missiles the dps is 728. I put 2 target painters for effective dps cause without it you're just waisting volleys. The dps is only slightly better than a golem with javelin torps, but the javelin's are more precise, therefore, better effective dps. Not to mention that even with the rigs fitted with ccc's you have less cap and much weaker tank with a sig radius that's only 60m smaller than mine with you fitting fury and me fitting rage torps.

So i'd say overall the golem spanks the cnr and shows it a thing or two about tank and applied dps. Now, if only the golem didn't have to worry about being jammed out in missions.
m3talc0re X
The Motley Crew of Disorder
The Gorram Shiney Alliance
#127 - 2012-02-22 02:55:31 UTC
That's kind of just putting the blame elsewhere though. The problem IS the ships. And you posted your fit in my Tier 3 BS marauder thread :P
Typhu5
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#128 - 2012-02-22 04:15:48 UTC
Joe Risalo wrote:
and we know we all want a salvage and tractor bonus, so that is figured out


I don't think that this is true. That's why i don't want you to say that.
Sure, some players, even in this thread, wants a salvage bonus.
But i am quite sure that this don't applies to everyone.
Spugg Galdon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#129 - 2012-02-22 23:37:22 UTC
I don't know what direction this thread is going in any more. All I know is that from this thread:-

A> People think Marauders damage bonus should be buffed from 100% to something like 120-125%

B> There is a debate as to whether the tractor bonus should be dropped for something else or buffed and include a salvager bonus

C> People find the sensor strength issue of Marauders a real problem.

D> PvE isn't what it used to be and Marauders are out dated and unsuitable for "modern" PvE
Spugg Galdon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#130 - 2012-02-27 12:12:04 UTC
bump and edit of original post
Nestara Aldent
Citimatics
#131 - 2012-02-27 13:15:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Nestara Aldent
Joe Risalo wrote:
Hans Momaki wrote:
The golem would still suffer from switching ammo quite frequently.. besides that, 60KM is way too low for mission running, and a prop mod on golem is inferiour ( Hi@TP ) in most cases. Personally, I won't use any short-ranged weapon, unless it's a mach.
My opinion ofcourse, but at the moment, the Golem is a lawlexpensive, useless piece of junk. I stay with my 900 dps Cruise-CNR and my noctis alt. Because... it's just cheaper and better.

The problem is, Golem lacks range and dmg application. Most of this is related to the mew-weapon system. But even if they fix that through fixing torps/CM's, I would still use the CNR, because the golem is offering nothing worthwhile.


With the right skills the golem is actually quite effective. When I had mine i would 3-4 shot bs's with no problems. 60km range was a valid trade off for that kind of dps. Not to mention I has a pretty massive tank on it, though it wasn't cap stable. With 2 target painters, it was quite effective dps. Again though, the only problems I had were that my size negated the bonus tank, and my sensor strength negated being able to do caldari missions in general.


Missions are damn easy already. Yes being jammed or three times sensor dampened sucks, but _its intended to sometimes simply warp out and adjust your setup, putting cruise missiles on that Golem/CNR will outrange those rats_.

Missions shouldnt be mindless grinding, but involving and quite difficult, with randomized unpredictable waves, unpredictable damage profile (thus favoring good hulls that can mount an omni tank) and there should always be possibility of losing a ship as well and you should plan around that. Rewards should be adjusted to cover that loss on an occasion too.

Marauders suck, but that has nothing with missions being hard or ship being unable to handle them, its just about a ship that's PVE only in game with PVP focus. Wasted time in skilling, if you ask me.
Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#132 - 2012-02-27 14:14:35 UTC
Nestara Aldent wrote:

Missions are damn easy already. Yes being jammed or three times sensor dampened sucks, but _its intended to sometimes simply warp out and adjust your setup, putting cruise missiles on that Golem/CNR will outrange those rats_.

Missions shouldnt be mindless grinding, but involving and quite difficult, with randomized unpredictable waves, unpredictable damage profile (thus favoring good hulls that can mount an omni tank) and there should always be possibility of losing a ship as well and you should plan around that. Rewards should be adjusted to cover that loss on an occasion too.

Marauders suck, but that has nothing with missions being hard or ship being unable to handle them, its just about a ship that's PVE only in game with PVP focus. Wasted time in skilling, if you ask me.

+many

Most L4 missions are soloable in a T1 BC with decent skills and fit.

If the Marauder's are in any way "inadequate" for L4 missioning I'd say that it is an expectations issue more than anything else.

That said, they could probably stand to have their tractor beam subsystem updated to the new Noctis control beam system, if ORE can be persuaded to license the design.

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#133 - 2012-02-29 21:27:52 UTC
Buzzy Warstl wrote:
+many

Most L4 missions are soloable in a T1 BC with decent skills and fit.

If the Marauder's are in any way "inadequate" for L4 missioning I'd say that it is an expectations issue more than anything else.

That said, they could probably stand to have their tractor beam subsystem updated to the new Noctis control beam system, if ORE can be persuaded to license the design.


NO..

Marauders are supposed to be the "GO TO" ship for missions, yet, once you've got a Marauder, you quickly find out that you'd probably have been better off using a pirate ship or t3, and probably spend the same amount of isk on it.

Marauders aren't inadequate due to expectations, they're inadequate because they don't fully meet the standards that they should.

Of all the ships in Eve, Marauders should be the best missioning boats by far because that's what they're designed to do. When I can do missions better in t3's, faction bs's, pirate faction bs's, in some cases t1 bs's like the domi, and occationally you can find a mission where you can do it better in a battlecruiser, then there's an issue.

No ship should be more effective for missions than Marauders because missions are all that marauders are designed for. Most other ships have a use in pvp and pve, Marauders do not. Hell, you can't even really take a Marauder into an incursions where you'd think they would shine, however, they are probably one of the worst ships to use for incursions due to their size, speed, and range.

Forget about the tractor and salvager buffs, I want these ships to be able to shine in pve like they're supposed to, but with the way they sit now, you're better off with just about anything else.
Kusum Fawn
Perkone
Caldari State
#134 - 2012-03-01 19:07:58 UTC
Wanda Sikes wrote:

Shiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiitttttttttttt.................


I would like it if you all posted some of these fittings that you all say are better.
I would also like it if you all explained why you want this ship for pvp.

One of the problems you are currently facing is you dont all agree on how to run a mission. thus what you actually seem to want from these ships are all different.

I remember a while ago when i was living in vale,and after that actually, when i was in Syndicate, I met people who used marauders for pvp. Im sure some of the KM are floating around but for the most part they were used for just missions or plexing.
Even before that, and now this is several years ago, i knew mission runners that used a kronos for just salvaging. they used a Mach for the missions themselves because this was way before the latest hybrids rebalance.

I love my Kronos, I like my navy mega, i like my domi. one of these days ill get around to buying a vindi.
I salvage on the fly and pull in things with loot, i dont always loot everything, but i generally salvage everything bigger then a cruiser. i also dont always salvage the entire mission. For the most part this means i can do two missions before i have to unload. sometimes i use a noctis, but it generally takes me much longer to run a missions in a navy ship and then noctis then straight kronos.

Another thing, you wouldnt use an iteron 1 to do level 1 missions , just as you wouldn't use an atron to move 7,000 m/3 (you can, and its pretty difficult, but there are better ships for the job, would you rebalance these ships to fit those roles? why?)

Joe Risalo wrote:

Marauders aren't inadequate due to expectations, they're inadequate because they don't fully meet the standards that they should.

this is exactly what expectations are,

please define "better" i can do some l4 in Assault frigates, ive even done some in my ibis.does this mean the ibis is overpowered? the afs need to be nerfed? or that any ship above the mighty ishkur is junk?

In general my kronos is the best ship ive flown for missioning. there are missions where i reship for a noctis, but those are pretty few, i think only Mordus headhunters. maybe a blockade, but i doubt it.

there are missions ive run along side with others, done time trials with t3's and gollems
as i run mostly serpentis missions, I generally win, i only lose when we don't take salvaging into account. I always win when we do that. the main reason? i dont have to reship and warp back to the missions site.

I agree that marauders ought to be brought up to speed in terms of sensor strength and scan resolution. Faction are common enough that there is no longer a need for that bar to be set. but they are pretty damn good at what they do,

I want to ready your whine thread on Orcas and the lack of level 3 badgers.

Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
m3talc0re X
The Motley Crew of Disorder
The Gorram Shiney Alliance
#135 - 2012-03-02 15:35:50 UTC
Again, like I said originally, the marauders need buffed, not op'd. They're outclassed right now and I agree that a lot of people here want the marauders changed in ways that wouldn't be good for them. Go back and read my proposed changes and you'll see they're completely balanced and would make our marauders shine like they're supposed to, without being completely OP.
Quade Warren
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#136 - 2012-03-02 18:05:11 UTC
Spugg Galdon wrote:
Any feedback?


I've flown a Kronos for years in missions. My biggest problems are as follows:

- You could add a third rig slot. Even the Mega has 3 rigs slots. This would probably allow a little bit more flexibility that will make everyone happy. More DPS? Add rig. More tank? Add rig. I think this is better than a dedicated bonus because it maintains the sandbox environment of mix and match. I also believe it would drastically increase their value in missions.

-I'm also on board with increasing drone bandwidth. I don't understand how a T2 ship would have less drone bandwidth than its T1 cousin, but I like drones so I'm naturally biased in this regard. I do not agree with increasing drone bay size, however. I think you should pick and choose your drones, not have a drone bay that'll fit whatever you want. The Kronos was based off the of Megathron platform, not the Domi.

-Ok. Scan Res and Sensor Strength. They can still be less than their T1 variants, but increase them a little, please. 20 secs to lock onto a frig? I think that nerf is a little overboard.

Other than that, keep them as they are. These little tweaks add up to a LOT. The ability to field five Ogre II's? One extra rig for DPS or armor? It'll tip the scales drastically. Maybe too much, honestly.
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#137 - 2012-03-02 18:44:40 UTC
Quade Warren wrote:
Spugg Galdon wrote:
Any feedback?


I've flown a Kronos for years in missions. My biggest problems are as follows:

- You could add a third rig slot. Even the Mega has 3 rigs slots.

The Mega is a tech 1 ship. The Kronos is tech 2. Tech 2 ships have 2 rig slots, and that's not going to change anytime soon.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#138 - 2012-03-02 19:18:43 UTC
Kusum Fawn wrote:
this is exactly what expectations are,

please define "better" i can do some l4 in Assault frigates, ive even done some in my ibis.does this mean the ibis is overpowered? the afs need to be nerfed? or that any ship above the mighty ishkur is junk?

In general my kronos is the best ship ive flown for missioning. there are missions where i reship for a noctis, but those are pretty few, i think only Mordus headhunters. maybe a blockade, but i doubt it.

there are missions ive run along side with others, done time trials with t3's and gollems
as i run mostly serpentis missions, I generally win, i only lose when we don't take salvaging into account. I always win when we do that. the main reason? i dont have to reship and warp back to the missions site.

I agree that marauders ought to be brought up to speed in terms of sensor strength and scan resolution. Faction are common enough that there is no longer a need for that bar to be set. but they are pretty damn good at what they do,

I want to ready your whine thread on Orcas and the lack of level 3 badgers.


I realize that there are some missions that you can do in smaller ships and possibly have a better outcome because the ships you're facing are smaller. However, this isn't my concerns here.

Like you've stated with your kronos, it handles just fine because you face up against serpentis missions most of the time. That works perfect because you're using a gallente ship for gallente missions. However, come to Caldari space and try to use any Marauders for Guristas missions. So, if you take a Golem into Caldari missions, you pretty much can't do them. However, no Marauders can due to the jamming. You'll also face problem running Amarr missions in any Marauder. Now, in the Amarr case, they suffer more because they rely on that cap for tank and dps, where as the other Marauders don't rely on cap as much for dps. However, they're massive ships, so if they're getting cap neuted or drained, then they become a very large, easy to kill target because they rely heavily on their tank.

Gallente missions and probably minmatar missions are kinda the easier missions. I can come into gallente and run serpentis missions in my golem all day long and not have any problems apart from high dps in certain missions.

Now, this brings me back to one of my initial comments on Marauders.

The problem with Marauders isn't so much the ships themselves. The only true issue I see with Marauders is the fact that they have a very large sig radius, so they get hit pretty hard, thus negating the bonus tank. This can be solved one of two ways. 1) Give them a better tanking bonus 2) Reduce their sig radius, and in the case of the golem, get rid of the stupid penalties for t1 missiles.

When it comes to their targetting issues, this falls on the missions. Gallente missions are easy cause they don't jam, and don't drain cap. So if you remove the jamming and cap neuting from missions, then they'll be able to do missions for all races better.
Amaroq Dricaldari
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#139 - 2012-03-02 20:39:24 UTC
I guess I should move to Minmstar space.

This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
m3talc0re X
The Motley Crew of Disorder
The Gorram Shiney Alliance
#140 - 2012-03-03 02:27:13 UTC
Sorry, but you DO realize that marauders are battleships, right? The sig of them has NEVER been an issue for me. It's a battleship. You fit a tank to handle your missions.

If any of you reply in your post with "it's not the ship" then you'd probably be better off just turning around and walking away. The problems ARE the ships. I don't really understand how any of you can over-complicate this matter. Just like CCP likes to over-complicate balancing things that would need just a few simple changes.

Also:
Megathron - 125m3 drone bay / 125 Mbit bandwidth
Navy Mega - 175m3 drone bay / 125 Mbit bandwidth
T2 Kronos - 125m3 drone bay / 75 Mbit bandwidth
Vindicator - 125m3 drone bay / 125 Mbit bandwidth

So again, it stands: * Increase Drone Bandwidth to 125 and Drone Bay to 150m3