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Marauders: Underwhelming. Fix Ideas
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Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#321 - 2012-03-23 15:55:35 UTC
Spugg Galdon wrote:
I did initially say that the Kronos could benefit from it too but why not the Vargur aswell. This wouldn't just be given to one Marauder without giving something equally as useful to the others.

The three turret based marauders could receive this bonus and the Golem could get a buff to TP's or CCP might be releasing a new module that helps damage application of missiles which it could get a bonus for.

They have just released some news about new modules but I know no details.


You got a link to that stuff?
L'Acuto
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#322 - 2012-03-23 16:01:24 UTC
Increase Marauder sensor strength and give them short range jump drives (not the covert jump drive).
Plyn
Uncharted.
#323 - 2012-03-23 17:12:56 UTC
Allow marauders to fit 8 turrets, give them 1000 sensor strength, and buff role bonus to 300% increased damage.
leviticus ander
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#324 - 2012-03-23 18:29:35 UTC  |  Edited by: leviticus ander
Plyn wrote:
Allow marauders to fit 8 turrets, give them 1000 sensor strength, and buff role bonus to 300% increased damage.

as fun as that would be, I think anything that powerful would be banned from highsec.
EDIT: and I should note that it would never happen either.
m3talc0re X
The Motley Crew of Disorder
The Gorram Shiney Alliance
#325 - 2012-03-23 18:36:27 UTC
They're not new modules. They're new models. They're finally giving us launcher models and new animations: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXNWgeQmiOE&hd=1

Giving that kind of bonus to Marauders, you are giving short range high damage weapons and ammo too much of a buff. I think that range limitation needs to stay where it is. Tracking isn't a huge issue either. So what is this going to turn into? You removing a TC and using one and having it equal 2, freeing up an extra mid slot, for what? A web perhaps? Maybe an afterburner (I don't use them unless it's one of those travel missions). Or is this going to turn into keeping two TC's on and using blasters/ac's/pulses out to 80km...
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#326 - 2012-03-23 18:53:18 UTC
m3talc0re X wrote:
They're not new modules. They're new models. They're finally giving us launcher models and new animations: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zXNWgeQmiOE&hd=1

Giving that kind of bonus to Marauders, you are giving short range high damage weapons and ammo too much of a buff. I think that range limitation needs to stay where it is. Tracking isn't a huge issue either. So what is this going to turn into? You removing a TC and using one and having it equal 2, freeing up an extra mid slot, for what? A web perhaps? Maybe an afterburner (I don't use them unless it's one of those travel missions). Or is this going to turn into keeping two TC's on and using blasters/ac's/pulses out to 80km...


I don't really care about the rest of it, but THOSE NEW LAUNCHERS LOOK AWESOME!!!!

I wonder when they're going to be coming out?

Now that they've released a video, I would assume about 2 years.....
m3talc0re X
The Motley Crew of Disorder
The Gorram Shiney Alliance
#327 - 2012-03-23 19:11:39 UTC
Well there was a thread in the test server feedback forums about the launchers and all being in the test client data. So there were a couple vids up. I don't know how many people saw it though. Here's the vids if you wanna see more on the launchers:
Detailed spinning models: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jHUaMn3-8uo
Launcher model animations: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvWJVXGCxpI
Spugg Galdon
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#328 - 2012-03-23 19:59:33 UTC
Link to news item about new modules. Very few details but......
Geister Bob
Doomheim
#329 - 2012-03-23 20:15:20 UTC
m3talc0re X wrote:
Jesus f'ing christ people...

"buff torp range for Golem..."
No. Golem should NOT be a f***ing torp only boat. It's a goddamn missile boat. You want that high damage? You deal with the range compromise. That's it. End of story. This applies to torps, blasters, pulses, and autocannons. Quit being stupid.

Paladin is the only ship that could use a tracking bonus, since it's the only (turret) ship that doesn't have one. Vargur and Kronos are fine. You want long range? Use beams.

I have faction ships and marauders. The gap between my Nightmare and my Paladin is close. Paladin has a bit less tracking and a little less range, but it's not THAT damn bad. Two of MY Paladins would wipe the floor with a Nightmare.

I'm beginning to realize some of you just don't know what you're doing and are blaming the ships for it.


I never suggested the golem should be a torp-only boat. All marauders should be able to choose between short or long-range weapons. The difference being: golem cannot use a module to increase it's range like the others can (tracking enhancer / -computer)
Keras Authion
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#330 - 2012-03-23 20:21:54 UTC
Did you notice the salvage drones in the fanfest video? Looks like the marauders' strongpoint of being able to salvage and run missions at the same time is being usurped. Yet another reason to fix the damn things.

This post was rated "C" for capsuleer.
m3talc0re X
The Motley Crew of Disorder
The Gorram Shiney Alliance
#331 - 2012-03-23 21:04:20 UTC
That's probably because missiles usually have good range vs turrets without the mods.

Short range high damage weapons using t2 long range ammo.
Base range without mods / then best range with mods (2x TC with range scripts) / then best range + 1x TE (i use them..)

  • Torpedo - 45.6 / 65.6 / 65.6
  • Pulse - 45+10 / 58+16 / 64+19
  • Blaster - 13+18 / 16+29 / 18+34
  • Autocannon - 6+52 / 7.8+85 / 8.5+100

Also remember that fighting in falloff is less desirable and reduces dps considerably...

In looking at this, I do have to agree though that there needs to be a missile equivalent to the Tracking Enhancer... But NOT the tracking computer. The TE is in the same slots as the damage modules. TC's are not. Honestly, TP = TC here. TP's make the target's sig larger and easier to hit, kinda like tracking. Though there's no bonus to range. On this note, TP's should have f'ing scripts... Less TP range but greater effectiveness vs more range/less effective. Neither here nor there, though. This is why I say fix the ships, not use the ships to fix problems with the weapons. They need looked at separately.

And I didn't see anything about salvaging drones. If they add these to the game, then Marauders should get some sort of buff to those as well, including the tractor/salvager buffs I've already listed.
Typhu5
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#332 - 2012-03-23 22:03:16 UTC
m3talc0re X wrote:
*sigh...

AGAIN. Because apparently some people just can't understand this: stop basing your opinions on a ship and it's options like your own opinion of its use is how EVERYONE uses it.

1) You don't like the web bonus? Me and many others do. Giving it even more range would be freakin' awesome. Since you don't use it, you think it should be removed and screw everyone else out of it?

2) Being able to salvage.....

3) All....

5) NPC ewar immunity

7) Resists and rep bonuses.


First, i want to apologies. It wasn't my intention to say that everyone should have the same opinion.
It was just my opinion after living inside the drone region.
There you had many problems with the Paladin. Mostly inside the Drone Horde (Sanctum).
You needed to Omni-Tank and kill them on at least 40 Km. If the Paladin would have the resistance of the other T2 ships,
than this would be much easier.
About the web bonus. I never said, that i dont like it. I do like it, but most of the enemies are orbiting on more than 14 Km that you have with a Federation Navy Web. This was the reason why i said, that i dont "need" it.

Salvaging is, again, for myself not the problem because i play 2 Characters at the same time. One killing and the other salvaging in a Noctis.
P.S.: I wished so much for salvage Drones!!!! Now there coming. I hope with lightspeed.:-)

3) The base cap of the other 3 Marauder i din't check. Yes you can make the Paladin Capstable even with Tachs.
But to make "good" damage you need to drop tank. With more Cap you could fit dual rep and be Capstable.

5) NPC ewar immunity..... This would be nice. No longer have to fear the Blood Raider and no longer cursing the Serpentis.
Yes, i HATE Serpentis.

7) Resists and rep bonuses... Did you ever flown (is ths the right word? :-)) the Abaddon? After changing to the Paladin
i noticed quite fast that the Abaddon was way better than the Paladin. Not in the way of making damage but in the way off tanking enemies. The reason? Resistance bonus instead of an repair bonus. And combined with more cap and dual rep i would say, that this is better than a single rep bonus.

Joe Risalo wrote:

Golem - Immune to jamming
Paladin - Immune to cap warfare
Kronos - Immune to dampening
Vargur - Immune to target painters and web


As good as you idea is, it would introduce a limitation against what NPCs i could fly a Marauder or in what Region i must make my missions or anos to get the best out of my Marauder.

Spugg Galdon wrote:

How about dropping the web strength bonus on the Kronos and Paladin for a tracking computer effectiveness bonus? Say about 10-12.5% per level.

Think about it...... People say that the Paladin needs a range bonus and a tracking bonus. This is essentially both! It also gives you good damage application across the entire range of the weapon instead of just within web range.

What do you think?

I like this idea. But why not making this bonus for all tracking enhancing moduls? (Tranking Computer and Traking Enhancer)


And one last this.
On Fanfest, i think during the Eve Keynote, did Soundware mention the new modules. There is a hardener planned which
can change the resistance by impact. Not much info, but if you are being hit by lazors, than your resistance should switch to EM/Therm. Again... not so much info.
Zombo Brian
Doomheim
#333 - 2012-03-23 23:48:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Zombo Brian
specific ewar immunity sounds extremely bad everyone would just get the paladin or kronos, since dampening/ecm are the worst of all, either the full package or none, still, even with tracking enhancers or range bonuses (i dont really get why 65km torp range on the golem is that bad) , marauders would still be outperformed by machariel etc.

more damage, in any way possible, marauders would still be pretty useless in PvP because of the damn low sensor strength and would actually be worth to skill for

that is the biggest issue with marauders: giving you not enough for a skill time thats incredibly hgh, and if you dont want to fly blackops, pretty useless otherwise

though kronos and paladin will probably need some sort of range bonus, also the ultimative mission ship for gallente without the ability to fit 5 heavy and 5 small drones at once? lol...
m3talc0re X
The Motley Crew of Disorder
The Gorram Shiney Alliance
#334 - 2012-03-24 00:57:56 UTC
All this again stacks up to my list of changes XD The changes I've listed would solve almost, if not all, of the marauder's problems while not making them OP or gimped. It would also make them a little more flexible. CCP are apparently messing with ships and their roles, so maybe we can have a chance at them looking at marauders..
leviticus ander
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#335 - 2012-03-24 06:55:35 UTC
m3talc0re X wrote:
All this again stacks up to my list of changes XD The changes I've listed would solve almost, if not all, of the marauder's problems while not making them OP or gimped. It would also make them a little more flexible. CCP are apparently messing with ships and their roles, so maybe we can have a chance at them looking at marauders..

your changes seem to be trying to turn the kronos into a pretty good all around tool ship at the BS size range.
to keep the PVE factor I think sensor strength needs to be left as is, but yes, the res needs to be upped. possibly so it's above normal to compensate a bit for being jammed more often. also, to keep the PVE king factor, I think you need the damage boost. and I think replacing the rep boost with a resist boost would be a very nice upgrade, if they were to do this, they shouldn't add the T2 resists that you've noted though. with that they would rep more than standard reps are and would allow a much better/easier buffer tank for when you are flying with a fleet like in incursions. and truthfully, I think they should be made a bit OP for PVP but remain more or less hopeless for PVP.
leviticus ander
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#336 - 2012-03-24 07:01:08 UTC
basically, my thoughts on the revision are:
Kronos
* Increase Scan Resolution to 105-110 mm at the least.
* Increase Armor Explosive resistance to 30%.
* Increase Drone Bandwidth to 125 and Drone Bay to 150m3
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonus:
10% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level changed to Marauder Skill Bonus
Marauder Skill Bonus:
7.5% bonus to large hybrid weapon tracking per level changed to Gallente Battleship Skill Bonus
** Change web bonus to 10% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers and range per level

Paladin
* Increase Scan Resolution to 110-115 mm at the least.
* Increase Power Grid by 1,000. Not sure what the base would be, but after skills and all, the thing needs 1k more pg.
* Increase Armor Explosive resistance to 50%.
Amarr Battleship Skill Bonus:
10% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level changed to Marauder Skill Bonus
Marauder Skill Bonus:
5% bonus to large energy turret damage per level changed to Amarr Battleship Skill Bonus
* Increase Capacitor Amount by 700 and decrease cap recharge time by at least 200 or 300 seconds.
** Change web bonus to 10% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers and range per level

Vargur
* Increase Scan Resolution to 110-115 mm at the least.
* Increase Power Grid by 2,500. Again, not sure of the base.
* Increase Shield EM resistance to 40%.
** Add 10% bonus to target painter effectiveness and optimal range per level bonus

Golem
* Increase Scan Resolution to 110-115 mm at the least.
* Increase Shield EM resistance to 30%.
** Add 5% rate of fire bonus for cruise and siege launchers
** Add 35% bonus to Cruise Missile and Torpedo Structure Hitpoints per level
** Change bonus to 10% bonus to target painter effectiveness and optimal range per level

All Marauders
* Increase max base capacitor by 1,000 at the least. Do not adjust recharge times.
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams changed to 150% bonus.
Role Bonus: 25% bonus to Salvager cycle time needs added.
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to [weapon] damage increased to 125%.

Optional:

remove the individual resist buffs, change the repair boost to a 5-7.5% resist per level.

Notes:

Added resist changes for each ship. The changes keep them all in line. Looking at the other 3 Marauders, the Armor Explosion Resistance buff on the Paladin makes sense.
the 7.5% resist might be a bit too powerful in the long run unless they add a bit of a ship based nerf to the effectiveness of omni hardeners.
Hans Momaki
State War Academy
Caldari State
#337 - 2012-03-24 11:07:24 UTC
leviticus ander wrote:


Golem
* Increase Scan Resolution to 110-115 mm at the least.
* Increase Shield EM resistance to 30%.
** Add 5% rate of fire bonus for cruise and siege launchers
** Add 35% bonus to Cruise Missile and Torpedo Structure Hitpoints per level
** Change bonus to 10% bonus to target painter effectiveness and optimal range per level

All Marauders
* Increase max base capacitor by 1,000 at the least. Do not adjust recharge times.
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams changed to 150% bonus.
Role Bonus: 25% bonus to Salvager cycle time needs added.
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to [weapon] damage increased to 125%.

Optional:

remove the individual resist buffs, change the repair boost to a 5-7.5% resist per level.

Notes:

Added resist changes for each ship. The changes keep them all in line. Looking at the other 3 Marauders, the Armor Explosion Resistance buff on the Paladin makes sense.
the 7.5% resist might be a bit too powerful in the long run unless they add a bit of a ship based nerf to the effectiveness of omni hardeners.


Okey, you want the golem to get 25% Rof + 25% weapondamage on top? By all gods, yes, I would take it.. but, 1,5k dps inc?.. with a reasonable tank (low buffer, high resists) .. The lack of sensor strength wouldn't be enough to keep it out of PvP with stats like that..
leviticus ander
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#338 - 2012-03-24 14:43:39 UTC  |  Edited by: leviticus ander
Hans Momaki wrote:

Okey, you want the golem to get 25% Rof + 25% weapondamage on top? By all gods, yes, I would take it.. but, 1,5k dps inc?.. with a reasonable tank (low buffer, high resists) .. The lack of sensor strength wouldn't be enough to keep it out of PvP with stats like that..

oh, wasn't aware it would be that much more powerful. I've only ever run the kronos.
EDIT: never mind, I see what you're talking about.
Joe Risalo
State War Academy
Caldari State
#339 - 2012-03-24 16:18:28 UTC
leviticus ander wrote:
Hans Momaki wrote:

Okey, you want the golem to get 25% Rof + 25% weapondamage on top? By all gods, yes, I would take it.. but, 1,5k dps inc?.. with a reasonable tank (low buffer, high resists) .. The lack of sensor strength wouldn't be enough to keep it out of PvP with stats like that..

oh, wasn't aware it would be that much more powerful. I've only ever run the kronos.
EDIT: never mind, I see what you're talking about.


That's what I keep trying to say, with all skills lvl 5, t2 rage torps, and lows filled with t2 ballistic controls, then you have like 1100 dps. Even with javelins they have a good 800 dps. Increasing their rof by 25% means another 25% higher damage, plus 25% increased damage means 50% more damage. With rage torps, that's 1650 dps, with javelins its 1200 dps.
As awesome as that would be, I'm afraid it would be quite powerful. Hell, even if you just gave it the 25% rof buff, that's 1k dps with javelins.

The only consideration it needs is perhaps a rof or pure damage buff with cruise missiles. HOWEVER, cruise has a much greater range then torps, so their dps shouldn't be increased. Perhaps though, cruise missiles could use some modifying themselves. Their exp radius is way to big for their size, and their exp velocity is way too slow for their size.

I'm still stuck on npc ewar immunity. While it may seem OP, it's only OP when put into lvl 4 missions. However, this is also the very place where they should shine and out do any other ship. Once you advance into higher tier pve, they become weaker due to other issues, such as size, speed, range, pvp weakness...etc. etc...

I keep pressing this, but it's honestly the only way they cen become the pve kings without needing other balancing to keep them in their place in pvp.
m3talc0re X
The Motley Crew of Disorder
The Gorram Shiney Alliance
#340 - 2012-03-24 16:25:24 UTC
I don't have time to look more at this right now, but where are you getting this 25% rof + 25% dmg?

Oh, okay, just saw:
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to [weapon] damage increased to 125%.

I have removed that bonus in my list. Notice the notes :P