Player Features and Ideas Discussion

People will most likely disagree with the following idea, but I'm used to it. To be honest, it is actually Darius' idea. He said that because of their low sensor strength, they should also have a lower signature radius. In real life, it is easier to detect a vehicle on radar if it is using radar than if it isn't using radar, because the sensors leave their own signature. The same should apply in EVE.

IDEAS I READ IN THIS THREAD

Marauders shoudl be "better than" faction BSs overall. By a tiny bit. Because they cost close to the same isk and Marauders require more training (at least... a bit more training).

Marauders sgould be "considerably better than" factions BSs in PvE. For the same reason mentioned above + specialization.

Conversely it might be the correct time to remove the PvP ban... after all faction BSs require the same isk and less training and they are PvP AND PvE awsomesauce...

OPINION

People perhpas need to look back to the rationale at the time of introduction. There were a lot of people saying no no no and forever no to tech II BSs and the compromise was to introduce them but severy gimped (in some people's opinions) or great but at a niche activity (in other people'e opinion).

Personally I think that tech II BSs should be better than faction, in their selected niche. After all faction BSs are equally good at pvp and pve and that initself is an argument why they should be inferior, even if by a little bit.

PVE
In pve (Marauders) were better than factions BSs before Incursions. They still are marginally the best lvl4 missions boats. However the focus of PvE has shifted away from lvl4 missions to Incursions, Sanctums, Wormholes, Exploration and lvl5s. As a result what was designed to be endgame PvE ship lost the tittle from day 1.. or day 365 at beast...Marauders would have fit their description and mission perfectly if they were in TQ form 2005 - 2009 on thereabouts. Today they fail and they need a hand.

PVP
There is no reason for Marauders not to be in PvP and no reason for them to be in PvP. There is however a reason why they should not be the top end PvP BSs. That is because that niche at inception was given to Black Ops. I believe that there should indeed be a tech II BS that should be awsome for PvP (niche or not). One way to do this would be for CCP to fix the sensor strangth of Marauders and / or change the tractor bonsu with a combat or EW bonus and be done with it. However that would create two problems:
(a) Make them generic ++ insteas of specialized niche boats. Is that bad? Probably... Definately if you are one of the allaince blob grunts making a living from access to 0.0 missions... Arguably if you are not...
(b) Serve as CCPs admission that they have failed with Black Ops. These were supposed to be, inter alia, the PvP arm of tech II BS inclusion. The validating reason why Maruaders can be PvP gimped. They have not achieved this. They are not bad at what they do but they have taken "Niche" all the way to "marginal" and a few miles even into "sentimental value" territoty...

So tl;dr fix Marauders for PvE and Black Ops for PvP. If you can't do the latter CCP then allowing Maruaders into PvP "might" be the way to take up the slack but ...a bit dissapointing and dangerous to boot..

It's funny how far you all have to go to finally start getting the idea that less is more... So again, to reiterate, and I've made a few additions and revisions:


Kronos
* Increase Sensor Strength to 24 or 25 points.
* Increase Scan Resolution to 90-95 mm at the least.
* Increase Armor Explosive resistance to 30%
* Increase Drone Bandwidth to 125 and Drone Bay to 150m3
Gallente Battleship Skill Bonus:
10% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level changed to Marauder Skill Bonus
Marauder Skill Bonus:
7.5% bonus to large hybrid weapon tracking per level changed to Gallente Battleship Skill Bonus
** Change web bonus to 10% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers and range per level

Paladin
* Increase Sensor Strength to 25 points.
* Increase Scan Resolution to 95-100 mm at the least.
* Increase Power Grid by 1,000. Not sure what the base would be, but after skills and all, the thing needs 1k more pg.
Amarr Battleship Skill Bonus:
10% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers per level changed to Marauder Skill Bonus
Marauder Skill Bonus:
5% bonus to large energy turret damage per level changed to Amarr Battleship Skill Bonus
* Increase Capacitor Amount by 700 and decrease cap recharge time by at least 200 or 300 seconds.
** Change web bonus to 10% bonus to the velocity factor of stasis webifiers and range per level

Vargur
* Increase Sensor Strength to 20 or 21 points.
* Increase Scan Resolution to 95-100 mm at the least.
* Increase Power Grid by 2,500. Again, not sure of the base.
** Add 10% bonus to target painter effectiveness and optimal range per level bonus

Golem
* Increase Sensor Strength to 25 or 26 points.
* Increase Scan Resolution to 95-100 mm at the least.
** Add 5% rate of fire bonus for cruise and siege launchers
** Change bonus to 10% bonus to target painter effectiveness and optimal range per level

All Marauders
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to range and velocity of tractor beams changed to 150% bonus.
Role Bonus: 25% bonus to Salvager cycle time needs added.
Role Bonus: 100% bonus to [weapon] damage increased to 125%. **
** Do we really need this damage bonus increase? I'm not so sure...

But you're over looking the fact that they wont need any more tracking bonuses. Mostly...

Paladin and Kronos get the boosted range of their webs and the webs are stronger. So say you have Marauders 4, that's 21km with a domination or true sansha web. Admittedly, that would be only like 14km range with a t2 web, but who's gonna be using a t2 web? :P So if something gets within that 21km range (or what, 24km at lv5?), if you can't track it, your web sure as hell would pin it down to hit.
Golem and Vargur would have the TP lighting them up full force, but wouldn't see any difference that close. The Vargur and Kronos both have a tracking bonus, but the Paladin has a cap bonus. Mainly because of the cap usage of lasers vs hybrids and lasers have better tracking anyway. Not much, but it's there. With that web bonus, I would have no issues with tracking.

Missiles on the other hand need fixed themselves. The Golem shouldn't have bonuses just to compensate for missiles that need fixed. With the rof bonus I added, the Golem would out dps the CNR using cruise missiles and would still have to suffer the range limitation of the torps, just as the Paladin suffers it with pulses. And with the TP bonuses for effectiveness and range, then you would be able to hit a lot better than the cnr as well.

Also, that 25% bonus for salvager cycle time would be what the Noctis gets at Lv5 (5% per level for Noctis). The web bonus is deliberately less than the Noctis, to keep it as the ultimate salvager that is.

As a former marauder pilot, I can safely say that Marauders are indeed underwhelming.

Marauders are supposed to be THE BEST PVE missioning ship with all the limitation and specialties that they have.

One big problem is that salvaging and shooting at the same time requires way too much micro management and you are just better off getting a navy/pirate ship and then salvaging quickly with a noctis.

Several Faction and Pirate ships are better at missions than marauders are. They take less skills, have more hitpoints, no penalties, and do more dps.

A CNR is overall better than the Golem at missions. Torps and they awesomeness is really only on paper. A Golem needs 2-3 target painters which require quite a bit of micro management using. Torpedo are SLOW and have too short of a range to use on several missions. You have to count volleys and constantly have to reload since siege launchers only carry 20 torpedos and you have to swap to faction to javelin to hit further targets. You waste time doing this. Finally Torpedoes travel slowly take 7-10 seconds to hit its target. Turret ships would have fired their second volley by the time the first volley of torps reached their target
You must keep your painters on the target while waiting for the torpedoes to hit them.

When you try to use cruise missiles the Golem is clearly inferior to the CNR, the CNR has much more DPS with cruise missiles. Infact a regular Raven does the same dps as a Golem using cruise missiles. The cruise missiles are better since they hit the target faster, they pretty much have no range limit, don't require target painters like Torpedoes do, and hit smaller targets better.
You can use a cruise CNR in any missions, but you can't do so with the Golem. The Golem can excel in a number of missions, but the amount of those missions are only a few. 9/10 times you are better off using a CNR

The Paladin is inferior to the Nightmare. The Nightmare has better tracking, no fitting issues like the Paladin, and higher capability of tank due to the superiority of shield boosters.

The Machariel and Vargur are the only ones who come close to each other. The Vargur has a tracking bonus, better tank, and is more ammo efficient. The Machariel has more speed and does more damage. The Vargur and the Machariel have their own sorts of advantages to be made worth using

The Vindicator is pretty much better than the Kronos, with its only limitation being targeting range with can easily be fixed. The vindicator can deal more DPS with its higher damage bonus and it can field more drones.

Like I've said, I've only really flown the Golem. My fit had 2 target painters, but i've seen many with 3 and an x-large shield booster. I prefered 2 and a large booster. The reason for that was for more cap.
Like you said, torps fly extremely slow, and since you're such a large target, you take a lot of damage from npcs before they're even in optimal. Without plenty of cap you can easily get capped out, and if you've let those scram frigs get in orbit range, then you're struggling to survive. A lot of what causes this problem is that Marauders are bonused towards boost or rep amount, which is nice, but doesn't help as much as resistance would.
I would like to see them exchange the boost/rep bonus for a resist bonus. The golem would still be used as an active tank ship because it doesn't have a high enough recharge to be a passive, and a passive tank fit requires rigs, lows, and mids. So it would be a highly ineffective fit on a golem to be passive tanked.

Now, as far as the golem goes....I had one while I was flying Gallente missions, however, most of the time all I had was problems. Due to lack of cap stability, there were some missions where I got capped out and had to leave. There were other missions where I got dampened from bs's that were out of my locking range, and there's no fof for torps. Any mission that jammed the golem was impossible. If I was target painted then I had to take down the target painting ships first because the damage just got too excessive with the painters. If I got cap neuted or drained, I pretty much had to take out the target neuting and leave the mission to let cap build back up. A lot of my problems seemed to have been that for some reason npcs are able to do things at much greater ranges than players. I was getting jammed from well beyond my hit range for torps, same with dampen. They could hit me with torps from 100km away, and so on.

So again, my thoughts on the Golem.
Increase target painter bonus from 7.5% to 10%, thus allowing it to only require at max 2 target painters.
Exchanage the shield boost bonus for a resistances bonus (for all Marauders)
Increase tractor bonus from 100% to 150% (all marauders)
25% salvage bonus (all)
NPC ewar immunity (all)

Here's what the description for Marauders is


Not sure if anyone agrees with this, but it's way wrong.

1) They're not versatile at all. The closest thing they have in relation to versatility is shooting and salvaging at the same time

2) I've been able to sustain in mission longer with a scorpion navy issue than I was with the Golem due to cap stability and range, so they're not designed for prolonged deployment in hostile environments. They're more of a "get in, get out" ship.

3) If they're supposed to be the cutting edge of today's warship tech, then why are they ourperformed at their only task by so many other ships that also have much more versatility?

4) WTF is support suppression, and who seems to think Marauders can do that???

5) comparatively weak sensors??? Try underpoweringly weak sensors.

6) Thick skinned? No, just high boost/rep amount. Thick skinned would mean they have good resistance.

7) Hard-hitting, yes, but at very short range and only with proper support modules.

8) Again, no to long trips.

9) Behind enemy lines????? Who the hell wrote this???? I wouldn't even take a Marauder into low sec without plenty of security, let alone go behind enemy lines!!!

10) Wouldn't "Behind enemy lines" also refer to them be relative in pvp? Cause this isn't the case.

It's funny how the description for Marauders looks so incredibly awesome, but when you break it down, you only find 2 things that come even close to being correct and that the sensors and the dps, but yet they're not even properly explained.

Joe, when you get on EVE, would you mind sending me your Golem fit? The one you have cap problems with and ****. Or whatever you've got now?

Rigs
Hydraulic bay thrusters II
Rocket Fuel Cache Partition II

Lows
4 x ballistic control system II

Mids
2x phased navigation array (target painter)
Gist x-type large shield booster
Photon scattering field II
3 x invuln field II (when omni tanking a mission)

Highs
4 x siege missile launcher 2

I have missile bombardment and missile projection to lvl 5. So
Javelin - 715 dps (fairly good applied due to 2 tps) at about 65.6km(58 with accel time)
Rage - 1016 dps (fairly good applied at bs's due to 2tps) at 38.9km(32 with accel time)

I have enough cap for 4m 32s.
Tank when in omni fit
em- 468
therm - 459
kin - 524
Exp - 550


4 and a half min of cap seems decent, but with the golem, it's so big that it takes a lot of damage and it takes it hard(expecially with rage torps fitted), so there are some missions where I have to perma run it till i'm capped out, then bail.

However, there are some missions where perma running still isn't good enough, such as anti-amarr mission "smash the supplier"

Good lord,

I run missions with a 320/600 defence-tank against sanshas in Amarr space, with my CNR, without any problem (AE bonus and Dread pirate Scarlet and Recon 1/3 are heavy, but still fairly easy doable without warping out). Gist C-Type X-Large and a faction amp.

Never had any problems. Would love to try smash the supplier, but that mission is not available for me.

Anyway.

I do think marauders should be the top PvE-Boats. To achieve this, I would love to see a significant range bonus on short-range weapons and short - range / high damage ammo. (somewhere between 60 and 80KM with perfect skills.)

This would boost marauders to the top with minimal changes involved.

The second suggestion I would make, is to GIVE THEM FREAKIN T2 RESIST FFS!


In addition, the Golem would need a more than minor bonus to it's dmg application. Torps are no viable weapon at all, since they need 2-3 Freaking TP's to Achieve max dmg against it's supposed target's. This is due to Torps beeing overnurfed and over-penalized. ( NO SKILLS AT ALL for dmg application, NO Low-Slot module for increased damage application, NO Rigs for damage application. SERIOUSLY???) You have to fix the golem this way, or buff all BS-sized missiles either)

Furthermore, buff the range/speed and cycle time on Salvagers/Tractors to bring the salvage ability more in line with the noctis (But leave the noctis as the superior salvage boat.).

Make a tier 3 battleship variant without the option of salvaging, but with more dps. Perhaps 120% Of what our current marauders do. Perhaps a boring variant for the tier 3s, but it would make the marauder skill viable