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Can flippers and gankers in High sec problem

Author
Shazzam Vokanavom
Doomheim
#81 - 2012-01-30 09:41:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Shazzam Vokanavom
Tippia wrote:
Quote:
Likewise what gankers fail to appreicate is how much the activity of inflicting damage on assests and industrials infrastructure has on removing supply and the industrials capabilities. Especially if they then have to spend time restoring their position. So the economy can be poorly effected as a result, with the price of items increasing or in some cases removing supply.
Actually, I think they're fully aware of it, which is why it's a part of the game that needs to be preserved and even made easier: because it allows doing significant damage to logistics chains that are hidden behind seemingly unrelated entities.


Would you say that if more supply was available it would increase trading competition?

Would you say that the aspect of suicide ganking you seem to profit from both as a "vulture" looter and a station trader bias your opinion?

Quote:
That's not a “poor effect” on the economy — it's the driving force for the economy. Removing supply and/or increasing demand, and having prices fluctuate as a result is what keeps the market dynamic and interesting, and which makes it the largest and most vicious PvP arena in the game. A massive destruction of property across all sectors of space is needed to keep the economy healthy. Having a player-run economy would be rather pointless if players couldn't affect it.


Destruction is helpful it does generate demand, doesn't have to suicide ganking and again I beleive there is more significant chaos that is contributing to these things in other PvP arenas alone. And I'm advocating change the conflict systems to help promote this destruction.

The idea that it doesn't remove competition however is not. You are simply representing a one sided argument to this. My beleif due to selfish interests as a station trader and wanting to remove competition from your point of view.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#82 - 2012-01-30 09:43:07 UTC
Quote:
But if your saying that industrials are the best defended ships in the game you need to review your understanding of the game.
Anyone who attacks a industrial ship unprovoked in highsec has a 100% chance of death. That's pretty well defended.
Irumani
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#83 - 2012-01-30 09:50:22 UTC
Alex Sinai wrote:
Alexandra Delarge wrote:
Terrible CEOs ruin the experience of new players. Join a better corp.

Terrible mechanics ruin the experience of new players. Join a better game.


Terrible players ruin the experience of themselves. There's no cure for that.

You're not supposed to feel like you're logging in to a happy, happy, fluffy, fluffy lala land filled with fun and adventures, that's what hello kitty online is for.

  • CCP Wrangler
Shazzam Vokanavom
Doomheim
#84 - 2012-01-30 09:53:02 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Quote:
But if your saying that industrials are the best defended ships in the game you need to review your understanding of the game.
Anyone who attacks a industrial ship unprovoked in highsec has a 100% chance of death. That's pretty well defended.


Oh dear, I've been overcome by semantics ........ what an idiot. Contribute much?

Maybe try the "dont let forum alt post line" seeing as you don't agree with me.

Anyone who does "Suicide" ganking should be pretty aware of its outcome and how to do it properly if they want to benefit.

Irrespective of that some simply do it out of spite and shiggles and not for profit. So it seems they don't really care.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#85 - 2012-01-30 09:56:09 UTC
Thorn Galen wrote:
Mars Theran wrote:
Just a heads up here for the unaware. Bored Vets couldn't care less whether new players start playing EVE; in fact, best I can tell, most of them would rather they didn't. This is why people who 'carebear' or come and 'whine' on the forums get told to gtfo and go play WoW. I should have thought that was obvious.

edit: ..not suggesting i'm one who feels that way. Quite the opposite really, but I can't be bothered to argue with those that do.


That's pretty much spot-on. CCP are aware of this but at odds with what to do about it. Malcanis has written a very thorough manifesto which covers Highsec issues in detail - makes a lot of sense. Something needs to be done along the lines that Malcanis outlines, or EvE will hemorrhage new players at an increasing rate. Not a good state of affairs.

o/


It's nice of you to mention my manifesto, but it should be noted that there's nothing whatsoever in it about providing additional protection for people who disregard warning messages. It does have scope for adding more warnings, though.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#86 - 2012-01-30 10:02:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
Shazzam Vokanavom wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
Quote:
But if your saying that industrials are the best defended ships in the game you need to review your understanding of the game.
Anyone who attacks a industrial ship unprovoked in highsec has a 100% chance of death. That's pretty well defended.


Oh dear, I've been overcome by semantics ........ what an idiot. Contribute much?

Maybe try the "dont let forum alt post line" seeing as you don't agree with me.

Anyone who does "Suicide" ganking should be pretty aware of its outcome and how to do it properly if they want to benefit.

Irrespective of that some simply do it out of spite and shiggles and not for profit. So it seems they don't really care.

CSM forums are reserved for serious discussion so your cowardly alt posting about your poorly reasoned misconceptions on basic concepts of EVE has no place there. If the author of the opinion needs to make forum alts rather then stand behind their beliefs (because deep down they have no faith in what they're presenting and/or they fear space-pixel consequences), then those beliefs certainly aren't worth sharing in a serious discussion. That's what General Discussion is for.

Industrials/Orcas/freighters in highsec enjoy the greatest protection in the game: 100% chance of death for anyone who breathes at them. Not even a Titan can claim that. If you manage to mess that up anyway and die because you turned your ship into a giant pinata and blundered blindly through bottleneck systems, that says more about you then the game mechanics.

Again, the actual problem is that, once learned, nearly every form of PvP in highsec besides suicide ganks is easy to avoid (and even suicide ganks aren't very difficult), meaning noobs who don't know how to evade wardecs and canflip bait are the ones who get preyed upon instead of the NPC corp guy missioning solo in a 6 bil BS. Additionally, making ships more gankable, thanks to risk/reward, coerces carebears to scale back on the amount of pimping out they can do n their PvE machine, putting them on a more even playing field with newer players.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#87 - 2012-01-30 10:03:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Shazzam Vokanavom wrote:
No, the assest holder might have been trying to maximise his role for purpose. And regardless my argument still holds true, otherwise why do Gankers do it? Why do they exclaim huge profits.
Because it is fun? And your argument doesn't really hold true because it assumes a kind of balance that simply doesn't exist in EVE: bigger isn't better; more expensive isn't more powerful; marginal improvement comes at a huge cost. Again, the fact that you can nuke huge assets with a very small investment is very deliberate part of the balance — it means you have to actually play (a little) smart rather than just buy your way out of trouble.

Oh, and the asset holder trying to “maximise his role for purpose” is pretty much the same thing as him failing his risk analysis. In almost all cases, his maximisation effort stops at “cramming the maximum amount of crap into the ship” without doing the second, far more important part: ”…that the ship can safely handle without turning into a loot piñata”.

Quote:
You also forgetting cargo or distinctive mods which is usually the pretty shiney stuff gankers go for.
No, I'm not. I'm saying that if you load your ship up with shiny stuff and don't adopt strategies to protect that stuff, you are failing your risk analysis, so it is hardly surprising (and most certainly not an issue) if someone comes along and robs you.

Quote:
Pretty sure gankers make life easier for themselves, else why concentrate at the trade hubs where activity is rife?
Sure. Doesn't change the fact that the targets are the ones making things easy for the attackers, when they could equally well make it hard for them. I'm also saying that, in spite of this, ganks are rather rare these days: as mentioned elsehwere, you could make a pretty penny stealing gank loot back in the day because it happened with some regularity — these days, it's not worth the (significant) waiting time.
Quote:
Also not trying to irradicate Ganking, trying to see some equality in the argument.
Problem is: stating that ganking is a problem is not an attempt at seeing equality — it's demanding further inequality in favour of the victims based on absolutely nothing in the way of a rational argument. The actual problem is that the victims refuse to take the matter of security into their own hands and then blame everything and everyone but themselves for that failure. If actual equality was the goal, then ganking would be significanly buffed… and I get the feeling that this isn't the goal for the gank whiners.
Quote:
Wrong, it is always the targets fault.
Ehm… make up your mind? You say that I'm wrong and then you say the exact same thing I'm saying. So which one is it? Am I wrong or is it the target's fault?
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#88 - 2012-01-30 10:03:36 UTC
Shazzam Vokanavom wrote:
Look at the history of anyone trying to argue for a change to ganking and the inane hostile reaction to things. And you say adaptability.
Yes. Because no matter how much things change, the gankers have always adapted. No matter how much things change, the targets fail to adapt (and their failure is the driving force behind the change). The hostile reactions come from the ignorance of the targets about the options available to them, and how this ignorance makes them claim the most outrageously silly things without having anything to back it up.

Things like “ganking is a problem”.

The hostile reaction is to their demanding change for no adequately explained reason.

Quote:
But if your saying that industrials are the best defended ships in the game you need to review your understanding of the game.
Nice straw man.

Quote:
Would you say that if more supply was available it would increase trading competition?
I would say that more supply without any demand would make industrialists' lives more dull and drastically reduce their income.

Quote:
Would you say that the aspect of suicide ganking you seem to profit from both as a "vulture" looter and a station trader bias your opinion?
Mu.

Quote:
Destruction is helpful it does generate demand, doesn't have to suicide ganking
It does as long as people can hide their activities behind layers of anonymity and protection from more organised attacks.
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#89 - 2012-01-30 10:09:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Solstice Project
I know new players who started doing exactly that.

Can flipping and ganking.

We need more of these players and less carebears.
Shazzam Vokanavom
Doomheim
#90 - 2012-01-30 10:11:36 UTC
Whats wrong Tippia, lots of unanswered questions there with nice little avoidance channels.

Struck a nerve?

If your going to avoid the questions, pointless discussing. Adaptation perhaps, to denial as usual.
Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#91 - 2012-01-30 10:14:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Tarryn Nightstorm
So, OP...How's all that GTC-financed ISK working out for you?

/Me giggles....Locator agent runningTwisted

Is urp-splosion tyme naow?

Star Wars: the Old Republic may not be EVE. But I'll take the sound of dual blaster-pistols over "NURVV CLAOKING NAOW!!!11oneone!!" any day of the week.

Rico Minali
Sons Of 0din
Commonwealth Vanguard
#92 - 2012-01-30 10:16:14 UTC
This old gem once again...

Trust me, I almost know what I'm doing.

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#93 - 2012-01-30 10:19:27 UTC
Shazzam Vokanavom wrote:
Whats wrong Tippia, lots of unanswered questions there with nice little avoidance channels.

Struck a nerve?
No. You struck a whole lot of nothing with your fallacies and faulty suppositions. Just because you didn't like the answers doesn't mean the questions are unanswered or avoided.

If you simply don't understand the answers, just say so.
Cannibal Kane
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#94 - 2012-01-30 10:22:35 UTC
I think all the OP did was give people a target for a wardec.

On another note... I do alot of flipping. Mostly other can flippers cans since they actually commit to fights and popping a Heavy Assualt ships with t1 Cruiser is always exciting.

If I flip a newbie and he actually comes at me with a ship. I give him 10mil for actually having the guts to engage.

I hate that word noob... newbie is better. Newbie is new... noob is a moron that has played for 4 years and still loose his shiny **** doing stupid things.

"Kane is the End Boss of Highsec." -Psychotic Monk

Shazzam Vokanavom
Doomheim
#95 - 2012-01-30 10:24:15 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:

CSM forums are reserved for serious discussion so your cowardly alt posting about your poorly reasoned misconceptions on basic concepts of EVE has no place there. If the author of the opinion needs to make forum alts rather then stand behind their beliefs (because deep down they have no faith in what they're presenting and/or they fear space-pixel consequences), then those beliefs certainly aren't worth sharing in a serious discussion. That's what General Discussion is for.


Well we both know then that the reason why I use a forum alt then is to avoid the meta gaming malicious strikes due to posting on the forum then don't we.

This is usually because "knuckle scraping" types use the opportunity to grief in this way to demonstrate their point as opposed to debate. So yes, I'm intelligently avoiding that hassle. See above for case and point (though might be humour of course).

If the General discussion could afford a serious discussion with an expectation of "mature" participation, it might not be an issue and your point might be valid. Unfortunatley its not, and your naive propoganda campaign is therefore not helpfull. Especially when you tend to simply use it purely for a spam alternative to points you don't like.

Also, if the CSM can avoid having to declare names in their minutes to avoid drama, I don't see why the forums should not be afforded a similar purpose.
Shazzam Vokanavom
Doomheim
#96 - 2012-01-30 10:27:03 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Shazzam Vokanavom wrote:
Whats wrong Tippia, lots of unanswered questions there with nice little avoidance channels.

Struck a nerve?
No. You struck a whole lot of nothing with your fallacies and faulty suppositions. Just because you didn't like the answers doesn't mean the questions are unanswered or avoided.

If you simply don't understand the answers, just say so.


Make your answers more relevant and actually answer them perhaps?

I'm not going to waste my time pandering to your usual around the houses, water torture process of avoidance.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#97 - 2012-01-30 10:28:57 UTC
Shazzam Vokanavom wrote:
Make your answers more relevant and actually answer them perhaps?
Done.
If you don't understand the answers, just say so, and ask for clarification.
Shazzam Vokanavom
Doomheim
#98 - 2012-01-30 10:40:36 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:

Again, the actual problem is that, once learned, nearly every form of PvP in highsec besides suicide ganks is easy to avoid (and even suicide ganks aren't very difficult), meaning noobs who don't know how to evade wardecs and canflip bait are the ones who get preyed upon instead of the NPC corp guy missioning solo in a 6 bil BS. Additionally, making ships more gankable, thanks to risk/reward, coerces carebears to scale back on the amount of pimping out they can do n their PvE machine, putting them on a more even playing field with newer players.


K, so we both know you like easier targets now and the affinity for the challanging noobs, no suprises there then.
Jess Maine
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#99 - 2012-01-30 10:41:17 UTC
Alex Sinai wrote:
Liam Mirren wrote:
Renarla wrote:
Mine into secure cans. Problem solved.

Next!


Clearly, using a secure container and then have one of the newbies do the hauling is not the way to go. Don't you realise that it's better to have 6 newbies mine rather than 5 while 1 is hauling? Teamwork? Logic? Effort? What are those filthy words!


Again for the last time. Not the point of the post.

Point of the post: Want more players in? Make it fun for new players. Not angry, not hard work for them. Or keep your playerbase at the very slowly rising or sometimes sharply falling levels. People play games to have fun. As far as game definition goes.


And I'm currently happy with both the population and level of enjoyment, and I'm down in Nullsec which is plenty more dangerous than Hi-sec. We don't want people like you numbing this game down for the new generation because you think its the fun and right thing to do - it isn't. Stop complaining and find solutions to your own problems instead of whining about ship losses that could EASILY be avoided.
Shazzam Vokanavom
Doomheim
#100 - 2012-01-30 10:42:14 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Shazzam Vokanavom wrote:
Make your answers more relevant and actually answer them perhaps?
Done.
If you don't understand the answers, just say so, and ask for clarification.


I do undertsand the answers, they aren't relevant and simply avoidance techniques, repeat ad infinitum Tippia water toruture process TM count incremented by 1.