EVE General Discussion

That's pretty much spot-on. CCP are aware of this but at odds with what to do about it. Malcanis has written a very thorough manifesto which covers Highsec issues in detail - makes a lot of sense. Something needs to be done along the lines that Malcanis outlines, or EvE will hemorrhage new players at an increasing rate. Not a good state of affairs.

o/

They don't. They start out in an area which has some very specific rules that filter out some of that harshness, and they are informed that this will end once they step outside in the cold. They also have a corp chat that is full of people who can advise them on the threats and risks and on how to minimise them.

No. The constant and rather significant security buffs that have happened since I was a newbie had drastically reduced the amount of ganking going on. Back in the day, I could make good money sitting on the Jita 4-4 undock and steal ganked loot; these days, you can sit there for ages without anything happening.

I can't comment on the can flipping because it never happened to me — it was too easy to avoid for me to ever do it — but if it has increased, I would either attribute it to these increased security measures that drive people towards the path of least resistance or to newbies being more stupid these days and not taking the time to learn how the game works.

The best thing that could happen to new players is if space was made a whole lot less secure and if they were informed of this from the get-go so they could start acquiring the skills to survive in such an environment. It sounds like the biggest problem for new players these days is that they're coddled to the degree that they never properly learn what kind of game they're playing, and when the realisation finally hits them, they get all confused and whiney and demand that it be changed into their incorrect/incomplete image of what the game is — into something it never was

It is better that can flippers can use game mechanics to bait noobs rather than go get tornado and shoot them off the sky without even giving a warning.

That's an interesting idea. Would be funny for sure. In any case I think these mechanics needs a serious rework. I could not care much about what happens in high sec but if there will be this same pattern going on without improvemet for noobs we will find eve emptier place to live in.

And herein lies the motivation, "for players to have an easy life."

The very idea that a few million can take down significantly more in assests so easily and with relative impunity is the reason why ganking is an issue.

When you combine that with the numerous conflict mechanics like bounty system and corporate wars that provide no real way to retaliate to such. And yet all the PvP ganker types then complain in other threads, specifically incursions that risk/reward should be an appropriate model. And yet here for an activity measured in minutes that can net them over 100's of millions in profit.

Huge double standard and weakens the risk/reward argument in my view big time. And this umbrella of relative impunity they can manipulate from themselves only makes the process more orientated for the Ganker.

People complain about the loss of insurance for a criminal activity like its an expected right for such nefarious activities in policed empire space. I personally applaud CCP for at last starting to wake up to some sensible realities about crime. And yet in essence it hasn't stopped the activity, it never really would. Losing a few mil for 100's of mill would never have even shown any significance with an insurance claim on the balance sheet. It's just thrown into arguments as a gestural change by CCP thats supposed to show a change in movement in this area.

And yet at the same time, they actually increase the capabilities of a recgnised ganking class the Dessie and introduce and new Tier 3 line of BC's with big guns designed to have the DPS to help take down stuff with alpha strikes and yet at a cheaper price than the use of BS's. I'm sure the savings and improvements here likley pay off for the small loss of an insurance claim.

All I continue to see from Gankers as a result is a one sided point of view where they try to suggest how its our fault in trying to orientate the purposes of our role and how we should operate. And yet when the shoe is on the other foot?

Another interesting argument is one of the null/high differences. Null seccers can come into High sec from their space and expect a cheap income as a rsult of this and yet of course if the same was to be said that any industrial tried to make it into HS they that would be considered suicidal based on the orientated IG mechanics. This double standard whilst maybe not apparent to most due to the "nature" of the game is still there.

Then people argue. But we need the "pinatas", EvE would be dull without it, the economy would never function, BS, BS, BS.

To be honest suicide gankers place too much emphasis and importance on themselves in this regard. It really isnt that significant. I also can't see the thrill from shooting a soft target personally, for me it would only be done as a valid war effort, as something that needed doing, not really as a fun challenge (challenge being the key word). There is also far too much "other" PvP and PvE activity that contributes to the demand curve.

Likewise what gankers fail to appreicate is how much the activity of inflicting damage on assests and industrials infrastructure has on removing supply and the industrials capabilities. Especially if they then have to spend time restoring their position. So the economy can be poorly effected as a result, with the price of items increasing or in some cases removing supply. So for the ganker themselves and for everyone else in the game, the impacts of a few of these lazy despots is having a negative effect on their purchasing abilities. So by removing competition in a free market your not helping in everyone's interests.

I personally can't wait to see what CCP will be introducing with the New War features and the Criminal responce features in near furture expansions. Especially if they accomodate a working player policing system into the mix. (One that currently affords benefit to the criminal, what a joke). If in the hope it can reinforce some validity to any PvP campaign so a significance of wars and PvP in this regard has more meaning. The nerfing of corp hopping, dropping, dec shielding and the addition of a working bounty system might actually give some much needed purpose back into the game, at least for empire space.

And if in the promotion of fun will at least keep the PvP orientated happy and with targets that might actually shoot back at them. Cosndier the possibility? Think of the adrenaline rush with the idea of risk pilots? Novel idea eh? In this sense CCP have the perfect opportunity to remold the culture and expectations of players and actually provide the PvP fun everyone is actually crying out for, and yet secretly worried they will end up with a huge problem of actually having to fight.

The very idea that you only buy marginal improvement at vastly increased costs is why EVE even works without completely screwing over the little guy.

If a few millions are allowed to take down significantly more in assets, it's because the asset-holder failed in his risk analysis and did something stupid.

…except that it's not measured in minutes unless you're very very lucky and come across some clueless target instantly as you undock. If the targets were smart, the activity could be measured in days or weeks. There is no double standard — it's just targets not taking responsibility for making it easy for the attackers and then complaining that the attackers have it easy.

Actually, no, they don't. Some people (most notably me) complain about the loss of insurance for criminal activity because in my view, that loss disincentivises criminal activity and I want to see more of it so I have more risk. The gankers themselves have pretty much universally expressed a complete indifference on the matter. Fortunately, these changes have not seemed to stopped the activity (after all, why on earth should it be stopped?), but as with the many previous security buffs, it might have put a further damper on ganking and that just makes the game dull and makes the targets more complacent and stupid. It's not a good direction.

When the shoe is on the other foot, the gankers adapt and overcome, unlike the whiners who demanded those changes because they were to incompetent to do so. Meanwhile, people like me — people who want to be at risk from attacks out of nowhere — are caught in the middle as it removes all that risk we want.

Actually, I think they're fully aware of it, which is why it's a part of the game that needs to be preserved and even made easier: because it allows doing significant damage to logistics chains that are hidden behind seemingly unrelated entities.

That's not a “poor effect” on the economy — it's the driving force for the economy. Removing supply and/or increasing demand, and having prices fluctuate as a result is what keeps the market dynamic and interesting, and which makes it the largest and most vicious PvP arena in the game. A massive destruction of property across all sectors of space is needed to keep the economy healthy. Having a player-run economy would be rather pointless if players couldn't affect it.

nearly every player have been can flipped once or twice. they learnt something from it, your friends still standing there after 6-7 canflipping, why? why they haven't go to a system with less traffic? there is map, dotlan, etc. there was time when i mined with hulk, filling up 4 cans, then dock, undock with my orca, and get my cans back, and no1 flipped em. and it was in very high-sec, just i searched a bit for a system with less traffic. sometimes i don't like the harhassment and cruel environment of EVE, but if they quit because of this canflipping, it is better that they leave as soon as possible, or they will whine because of 3 million more things they will face while they spending days in EVE-space. and at least, this game needs a bit of intelligence, maybe your friends lack of it :)

I understand the point you make but in case of can flippers it is very easy to work around them. Don't use jetcans, use an Orca or have a cloaked pilote ready who flips the can back and cloakes again. Of course it is a bit hard for new players but if they start to actually learn the game they will find easy solutions for their problems.

Ganking on the other hand is a different story, because it is too easy and cheap to kill expensive ships without even having a remote chance of fighting back. The mechanics of Mining Barges and Exhumers should be looked at to make the situation more fair. But there is no need to ban ganking altogether, it is an allowed playing style just as mining and mission running.

CCP don't do everything possible to keep new players out. EVE ist a bit different in terms of gameplay because it is a sandbox game that tries to give every player as much freedom as possible. It is normal that there are playing styles that conflict with each other. The ultimate challange for CCP is to find a balance between all those playing styles so that no one feels too restricted.
In fact it is more the EVE community itself who seems to try everything possible to scare away new players. Many players think their playing style is the only viable one and they try to scare anyone who isn't playing as them away from the game. The problem is more about missing respect for other peoples playing styles. And that applies to both sides of the fence, carebears and gankers/hardcore PvPers alike.

No, the assest holder might have been trying to maximise his role for purpose. And regardless my argument still holds true, otherwise why do Gankers do it? Why do they exclaim huge profits. When destoryers can take down anything in a manner of numbers its really just a numbers game even though other ships might be better suited, but then its a profit caluclation for doing it for some. Shall we do the maths exercise?

Do you really want to be that bored? You also forgetting cargo or distinctive mods which is usually the pretty shiney stuff gankers go for. Which also makes the scouting easier since they dont have to be bothered calculating the total net gains on complicated overall ships fits etc. I'm sure they will try to be picky in this regard to skew things as much towards certainty.



Pretty sure gankers make life easier for themselves, else why concentrate at the trade hubs where activity is rife? Why hang out on the doorstep of Jita 4 -4 or Emporer family in Amarr? Why do we get warnings of being carefull in the Jita/Amarr trade pipe. You yourself have been seen on numerous occasions of quoting that the gankers go where the targets are.

Scouting is minimsed to look for high paying cargo and shiney mods to make life easier. Whilst I'm not saying there isnt some scouting involved when you compare the time to what the industrial might have to do to generate the cargo and infrastructure that is the target in an effectively competative manner it simply doesn't equate on an equal footing. Otherwise the actual gank is measured in a matter of seconds given Concords responce times. And I guess a few minutes of selling of the loot, maybe make it 15 - 20 mins, so laborious.



tbc ....

Look further back in this thread, ganker insurance whiner. Glad you agree though. Also read rest of post about trying to promote risk.

Also not trying to irradicate Ganking, trying to see some equality in the argument. Mostly is dimissed due to selfish interest.



Wrong, it is always the targets fault. Look at the history of anyone trying to argue for a change to ganking and the inane hostile reaction to things. And you say adaptability. At the end of the day, you can help reduce the impcat but its not going to stop it. Nor am I advocating for a complete removal. But if your saying that industrials are the best defended ships in the game you need to review your understanding of the game.

I say you need to review your own obstinace to these issues when it comes to comprimise and adapatability. I wont accept the roll over and do what I say role sorry.

tbc ........