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Can flippers and gankers in High sec problem
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Alex Sinai
Doomheim
#241 - 2012-01-31 04:52:58 UTC
Well so far reading all the posts I understand why a lot of people simply not coming to forums. There's very few constructive posts or discussion and mostly spam, threats, insults from one player to another. WAKE UP GUYS! THIS IS A GAME!

You not discussing life critical topics on the front line sitting in a trench with a rifle or fighting for a life changing things. And yet a lot of posts here reads like a "my epeen bigger then yours and that's why im so cool".

Who cares what you fly. How cool you are and how much experience in game you have if a lot of posts here show that people can't discuss things as people but more do so as some kind of underaged low esteem heavily undereducated teens. Which i'm sure they are not. Learn how to discuss even borderline topics instead of just shitting on the forums. And what ship you fly or how many kills you got is completely irrelevant to ability to discuss things.

CCP you wonder why people not post on your forums for discussion and most not even read them? Read the thread. That's why. But may be that's the policy of yours.

Don't let them fly safe!
Spineker
#242 - 2012-01-31 05:01:09 UTC
Barely literate basement dwellers I bet they have small Epeens especially null sec.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#243 - 2012-01-31 05:02:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
I handled the OP already back on page 3, now we are discussing how pr0 the anathema is
Shazzam Vokanavom
Doomheim
#244 - 2012-01-31 05:02:35 UTC
Alex Sinai wrote:
Well so far reading all the posts I understand why a lot of people simply not coming to forums. There's very few constructive posts or discussion and mostly spam, threats, insults from one player to another. WAKE UP GUYS! THIS IS A GAME!

You not discussing life critical topics on the front line sitting in a trench with a rifle or fighting for a life changing things. And yet a lot of posts here reads like a "my epeen bigger then yours and that's why im so cool".

Who cares what you fly. How cool you are and how much experience in game you have if a lot of posts here show that people can't discuss things as people but more do so as some kind of underaged low esteem heavily undereducated teens. Which i'm sure they are not. Learn how to discuss even borderline topics instead of just shitting on the forums. And what ship you fly or how many kills you got is completely irrelevant to ability to discuss things.

CCP you wonder why people not post on your forums for discussion and most not even read them? Read the thread. That's why. But may be that's the policy of yours.


Understand the sentiment Alex, but the sooner you conclude to the level of selfishness and inability to be mature about something not so critical as you put it, it's better to be apathetic to using the general forum for serious discussion.

You have to follow the norm in EvE, most people are puppets who prescribe how to play and cannot accomodate others or be capable of out of the box thinking. As its more important to be popular in EvE than have integrity. As players simply want to ensure they are getting their in game bacon and classically dont give a crap about your standpoint they will argue tooth and nail for every last crumb about their position regardless. Sad truth, but you'll just get emotionally confused and frustrated if you persist in trying to overcome it, imho.

Just raise your points in "Features and Ideas" forum if it helps, there is "less" of the trollish behaviour.
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#245 - 2012-01-31 05:04:34 UTC
Alex Sinai wrote:
Well so far reading all the posts I understand why a lot of people simply not coming to forums. There's very few constructive posts or discussion and mostly spam, threats, insults from one player to another. WAKE UP GUYS! THIS IS A GAME!

You not discussing life critical topics on the front line sitting in a trench with a rifle or fighting for a life changing things. And yet a lot of posts here reads like a "my epeen bigger then yours and that's why im so cool".

Who cares what you fly. How cool you are and how much experience in game you have if a lot of posts here show that people can't discuss things as people but more do so as some kind of underaged low esteem heavily undereducated teens. Which i'm sure they are not. Learn how to discuss even borderline topics instead of just shitting on the forums. And what ship you fly or how many kills you got is completely irrelevant to ability to discuss things.

CCP you wonder why people not post on your forums for discussion and most not even read them? Read the thread. That's why. But may be that's the policy of yours.

Didn't you hear? EVE is real.
Spineker
#246 - 2012-01-31 05:05:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Spineker
Damn it I am always late.

There is reverse jet can system. Especially for epeens in their T2 shitships

However they generally run then so not so much fun.
kenxi
The Green Dollar
#247 - 2012-01-31 05:12:00 UTC
Alex Sinai wrote:
Well so far reading all the posts I understand why a lot of people simply not coming to forums. There's very few constructive posts or discussion and mostly spam, threats, insults from one player to another. WAKE UP GUYS! THIS IS A GAME!

You not discussing life critical topics on the front line sitting in a trench with a rifle or fighting for a life changing things. And yet a lot of posts here reads like a "my epeen bigger then yours and that's why im so cool".

Who cares what you fly. How cool you are and how much experience in game you have if a lot of posts here show that people can't discuss things as people but more do so as some kind of underaged low esteem heavily undereducated teens. Which i'm sure they are not. Learn how to discuss even borderline topics instead of just shitting on the forums. And what ship you fly or how many kills you got is completely irrelevant to ability to discuss things.

CCP you wonder why people not post on your forums for discussion and most not even read them? Read the thread. That's why. But may be that's the policy of yours.



Came looking for tears and ran outta jars on page 3!

OP go to the fridge get the rum and coke and have a few your way to riled.

It happens to everyone and I mean everyone who has ever mined in eve To be frank your friend is better off gone. Perhaps he will eventually come back I know ive raged quit a few times

The % of morons is always greater than what you would expect it to be unless you always assume 100% of people are morons
NaturalBeast
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#248 - 2012-01-31 05:20:23 UTC
OP: Take a step back and think about something. Do you want to play a game that is boring, predictable and a complete waste of time?

Or do you want a sandbox type game that allows you to have a bit of fun and blow up pixels. And in the process know that you actually impacted another player in some way. But in the end, nothing has changed. You still have food in the fridge and your car is still in the driveway.

But maybe just maybe you relieved some stress and had some fun. Don't take things so seriously here and you will do fine.
Shazzam Vokanavom
Doomheim
#249 - 2012-01-31 05:33:15 UTC
NaturalBeast wrote:
OP: Take a step back and think about something. Do you want to play a game that is boring, predictable and a complete waste of time?

Or do you want a sandbox type game that allows you to have a bit of fun and blow up pixels. And in the process know that you actually impacted another player in some way.


The funny thing about this is why people are incapable of seeing that the game does and can accomodate "both" the avenues you are "flavouring" with your descriptions.
Ai Shun
#250 - 2012-01-31 05:37:59 UTC
Alex Sinai wrote:
A relatively new player with a few months in EVE with not a bad ship and few totally fresh players all in High sec. A can flipper shows up and starts flying around bumping the newbies (5th or 7th flipper for the day for them). The one with not bad ship comes in so flipper warps out. Newbie picks up ore from the can (stupid move but hey, its a newbie and he have tons of things to learn so he forgets some) and moments later a nice fleet of can flipper with a much better ship and friends arrive. Of course all get owned. And all quit the game because they are sick and tired of can flippers, gankers and other sh*t.


I could tell you the opposite story.

A friend of mine joined EVE Online and while I set out on an Industrial, production and Hauling career he was soon skimming along the outskirts, looking for opportunities for larceny. Within a few weeks he was raking in three or four times the ISK I was, having fun flipping cans, stealing salvage and generally behaving badly. Occasionally he'd be blown up, other times it would be the reverse.

He LOVED that.

Until he realised how insignificant the fun he was having was in terms of ISK. Especially when he compared it to the same old same old grind of Missions (No Incursions at the time) and the ability to purchase PLEX.

So he left. He left something he enjoyed doing.

It was a ******* shame.

Now, if I were to apply your logic, I could say that L4 Missions and PLEX are turning away players and if CCP wanted to do anything to save their game they'd need to remove those from the game. But that would be illogical, wouldn't it? Because it would be entirely anecdotal and the only problem here was my friend. He understood the concept of EVE Online, but he was disgusted by how World of Warcraftish some aspects of it was. Your story is effectively the reverse; but no less anecdotal.

Be careful of making a judgement on a game based off one experience; rather try to savour the full flavour and understand the glorious whole of New Eden which is Null, High, Low, Tritanium, Tengus, Sansha and all the rest melted together.
Spineker
#251 - 2012-01-31 05:50:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Spineker
Even though I dislike 0.0 Epeen corps and alliances if you want to mine join one they are happy to have industrials and will come to your defense in most cases and if your fancy mining ship gets whacked they will most likely help you replace it. 0.0 is industrial friendly and they will kill and fight to defend them. In most cases anyway and not the crap corps just looking for taxes but the ones who actually understand industrial characters make the galaxy spin.

In most intelligent corps a mining op getting attacked is all hands on deck. That is considering they don't already have CAP over one.

You will get rich unlike mining Trit in Highsec.

Not only that but you will mine far more interesting ores.
Alex Sinai
Doomheim
#252 - 2012-01-31 06:21:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Alex Sinai
Ai Shun wrote:
Alex Sinai wrote:
A relatively new player with a few months in EVE with not a bad ship and few totally fresh players all in High sec. A can flipper shows up and starts flying around bumping the newbies (5th or 7th flipper for the day for them). The one with not bad ship comes in so flipper warps out. Newbie picks up ore from the can (stupid move but hey, its a newbie and he have tons of things to learn so he forgets some) and moments later a nice fleet of can flipper with a much better ship and friends arrive. Of course all get owned. And all quit the game because they are sick and tired of can flippers, gankers and other sh*t.


I could tell you the opposite story.

A friend of mine joined EVE Online and while I set out on an Industrial, production and Hauling career he was soon skimming along the outskirts, looking for opportunities for larceny. Within a few weeks he was raking in three or four times the ISK I was, having fun flipping cans, stealing salvage and generally behaving badly. Occasionally he'd be blown up, other times it would be the reverse.

He LOVED that.

Until he realised how insignificant the fun he was having was in terms of ISK. Especially when he compared it to the same old same old grind of Missions (No Incursions at the time) and the ability to purchase PLEX.

So he left. He left something he enjoyed doing.

It was a ******* shame.

Now, if I were to apply your logic, I could say that L4 Missions and PLEX are turning away players and if CCP wanted to do anything to save their game they'd need to remove those from the game. But that would be illogical, wouldn't it? Because it would be entirely anecdotal and the only problem here was my friend. He understood the concept of EVE Online, but he was disgusted by how World of Warcraftish some aspects of it was. Your story is effectively the reverse; but no less anecdotal.

Be careful of making a judgement on a game based off one experience; rather try to savour the full flavour and understand the glorious whole of New Eden which is Null, High, Low, Tritanium, Tengus, Sansha and all the rest melted together.


I agree that there's always two sides of the medal. What I wanted to do with this post is to raise the discussion so that players share their thoughts on how to may be balance things a bit so that newbies won't rage quit before they even get a taste of real eve and a bit older players won't die out of boredom. Removing ganking completely would be terrible for both sides but balancing it more so that it will actually become blockade running for ones and hunting for others instead of what we got now. May be restricting can flipping to 0.7 and lower with better ores or somehow balancing it so it won't drive miners crazy because 40 minutes of their work went out of window and still be interesting for flippers.

Don't let them fly safe!
Rel'k Bloodlor
Federation Front Line Report
Federation Front Line
#253 - 2012-01-31 06:49:05 UTC
Alex Sinai wrote:
So, CCP wants to bring in more players in but on the other side does everything possible to keep them out.

Just a short story:

A relatively new player with a few months in EVE with not a bad ship and few totally fresh players all in High sec. A can flipper shows up and starts flying around bumping the newbies (5th or 7th flipper for the day for them). The one with not bad ship comes in so flipper warps out. Newbie picks up ore from the can (stupid move but hey, its a newbie and he have tons of things to learn so he forgets some) and moments later a nice fleet of can flipper with a much better ship and friends arrive. Of course all get owned. And all quit the game because they are sick and tired of can flippers, gankers and other sh*t.

CCP you want more players? Well may be instead of spending tons of money on useless advertisements you think about changing some mechanics of your own game so that people wont quit because your mechanics so flawed for new players and allow the exploits by some terribly bored vets who sit in their Titans and create alts out of boredom to go get their kicks on new players and then complain that there's not enough influx of players in the game.

I do understand an attempt to push players to other then High sectors. But with recent "buff to gankers" strategy all you do is pushing them out of the game.


^^
Is not a question to start a debate, a wine story, a few flimsy flammable comments, a question to CCP and some insults to the veteran's of the game.
What did you think would happen?
Have you read the forums?

I wanted to paint my space ship red, but I couldn't find enough goats. 
Alex Sinai
Doomheim
#254 - 2012-01-31 07:34:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Alex Sinai
Rel'k Bloodlor wrote:
Alex Sinai wrote:
So, CCP wants to bring in more players in but on the other side does everything possible to keep them out.

Just a short story:

A relatively new player with a few months in EVE with not a bad ship and few totally fresh players all in High sec. A can flipper shows up and starts flying around bumping the newbies (5th or 7th flipper for the day for them). The one with not bad ship comes in so flipper warps out. Newbie picks up ore from the can (stupid move but hey, its a newbie and he have tons of things to learn so he forgets some) and moments later a nice fleet of can flipper with a much better ship and friends arrive. Of course all get owned. And all quit the game because they are sick and tired of can flippers, gankers and other sh*t.

CCP you want more players? Well may be instead of spending tons of money on useless advertisements you think about changing some mechanics of your own game so that people wont quit because your mechanics so flawed for new players and allow the exploits by some terribly bored vets who sit in their Titans and create alts out of boredom to go get their kicks on new players and then complain that there's not enough influx of players in the game.

I do understand an attempt to push players to other then High sectors. But with recent "buff to gankers" strategy all you do is pushing them out of the game.


^^
Is not a question to start a debate, a wine story, a few flimsy flammable comments, a question to CCP and some insults to the veteran's of the game.
What did you think would happen?
Have you read the forums?


As far as I see on these forums debates only who's epeen is bigger. A few rare reasonable posts here and there drowning in flood of epeens big and bigger shouts and that's that. Community? There's no community here. I kind of expected more from grown ups. I was wrong.

Don't let them fly safe!
NightCrawler 85
Phoibe Enterprises
#255 - 2012-01-31 07:38:11 UTC
I will admit i did not read this whole thread but i got a rather good idea on what the op is trying to say.

You feel that EVE is to harsh on a new player,not because you have exsperiensed it like that your self,but because a friend of a friend told you that was the case?
Did someone tell this person that they should consider trying to mine in a less populated system,maybe get away from the starting system and dont stick around in areas where they do get can flipped?

If your friends decided that moving away from that system,or finding other ways around it (ninja mining,using a GSC or similar) to avoid getting can flipped was to much of an effort,or not worth it,they either where looking for an exuse to quit the game or they would rage quit in a couple of months when they got suecide ganked for the first time when they decided it was a good idea to move a bill worth of stuff in a t1 hauler on ap.

People that do enjoy EVE in general (note in general,not saying everyone) enjoy it because you can get scammed,can get your stuff stolen,or have to think to find a solution to a problem.

If CCP changed this,EVE wouldent be the same. Who knows maybe they would get a lot of new players in that would handle playing for 2 or 3 months until they discovered that they loose ships when they fight NPC's. Well if thats a problem CCP could just change it so you dident loose your ship but would respawn in the closest station with your fully fitted ship back.

But then they would try to PVP and they loose their stuff they would also rage because they had put so much work into it and put ALL their isk into some fancy faction mods because good stuff makes you "uber". So then CCP could just make it so that when you lost a ship in PVP you got that back as well.

And like that the whole thrill and challange of EVE is more or less gone. The next things on the list would ofc be corp thefts,scamming and all those small things that adds to EVE's atmosphere. But hey..atleast CCP would be sitting with a bunch of players who are just waiting for the next WOW patch to come out and need something to kill time...

I realize this is hard to understand when your new to EVE. It does hurt to loose all your stuff,but its the best way to learn,and you will never repeat the same mistakes again.
Do your research,ask around,find a group that actually wants to help and you will hopefully avoid most of the issues that are mentioned here and become a bitter old vet that spends 90% of your time sitting reading the EVE forums shaking your head because of...humorus... threads such as this Blink

Phoibe Enterprises

The Eve Reader -  Audio Recordings of Eve Chronicles
Alex Sinai
Doomheim
#256 - 2012-01-31 08:41:44 UTC
NightCrawler 85 wrote:
I will admit i did not read this whole thread but i got a rather good idea on what the op is trying to say.

You feel that EVE is to harsh on a new player,not because you have exsperiensed it like that your self,but because a friend of a friend told you that was the case?
Did someone tell this person that they should consider trying to mine in a less populated system,maybe get away from the starting system and dont stick around in areas where they do get can flipped?

If your friends decided that moving away from that system,or finding other ways around it (ninja mining,using a GSC or similar) to avoid getting can flipped was to much of an effort,or not worth it,they either where looking for an exuse to quit the game or they would rage quit in a couple of months when they got suecide ganked for the first time when they decided it was a good idea to move a bill worth of stuff in a t1 hauler on ap.

People that do enjoy EVE in general (note in general,not saying everyone) enjoy it because you can get scammed,can get your stuff stolen,or have to think to find a solution to a problem.

If CCP changed this,EVE wouldent be the same. Who knows maybe they would get a lot of new players in that would handle playing for 2 or 3 months until they discovered that they loose ships when they fight NPC's. Well if thats a problem CCP could just change it so you dident loose your ship but would respawn in the closest station with your fully fitted ship back.

But then they would try to PVP and they loose their stuff they would also rage because they had put so much work into it and put ALL their isk into some fancy faction mods because good stuff makes you "uber". So then CCP could just make it so that when you lost a ship in PVP you got that back as well.

And like that the whole thrill and challange of EVE is more or less gone. The next things on the list would ofc be corp thefts,scamming and all those small things that adds to EVE's atmosphere. But hey..atleast CCP would be sitting with a bunch of players who are just waiting for the next WOW patch to come out and need something to kill time...

I realize this is hard to understand when your new to EVE. It does hurt to loose all your stuff,but its the best way to learn,and you will never repeat the same mistakes again.
Do your research,ask around,find a group that actually wants to help and you will hopefully avoid most of the issues that are mentioned here and become a bitter old vet that spends 90% of your time sitting reading the EVE forums shaking your head because of...humorus... threads such as this Blink


A very well made point. I cannot say anything else but to totally agree and thank you for very valuable and well argumented post that explains it all. For me this thread is closed. Thank you again.

Don't let them fly safe!
Ai Shun
#257 - 2012-01-31 08:46:05 UTC
Alex Sinai wrote:
I agree that there's always two sides of the medal. What I wanted to do with this post is to raise the discussion so that players share their thoughts on how to may be balance things a bit so that newbies won't rage quit before they even get a taste of real eve and a bit older players won't die out of boredom. Removing ganking completely would be terrible for both sides but balancing it more so that it will actually become blockade running for ones and hunting for others instead of what we got now. May be restricting can flipping to 0.7 and lower with better ores or somehow balancing it so it won't drive miners crazy because 40 minutes of their work went out of window and still be interesting for flippers.


I can't say something like that sits well with me. The whole purpose of a sandbox type environment is to keep the minimum possible rules; not to introduce more. Those rules restrict the game-play more and turn EVE further away from its original concept. It is meant to be harsh, unforgiving and so forth.

It is better for a new player to learn that the first minute they log-in than to discover that six months down the line when they've invested time, effort and started to enjoy the soft experience you want them to have.

Besides, do you really think can-flipping is THAT big a problem?
Elistea
BLUE Regiment.
#258 - 2012-01-31 09:13:38 UTC
Alex Sinai wrote:
So, CCP wants to bring in more players in but on the other side does everything possible to keep them out.

Just a short story:

A relatively new player with a few months in EVE with not a bad ship and few totally fresh players all in High sec. A can flipper shows up and starts flying around bumping the newbies (5th or 7th flipper for the day for them). The one with not bad ship comes in so flipper warps out. Newbie picks up ore from the can (stupid move but hey, its a newbie and he have tons of things to learn so he forgets some) and moments later a nice fleet of can flipper with a much better ship and friends arrive. Of course all get owned. And all quit the game because they are sick and tired of can flippers, gankers and other sh*t.

CCP you want more players? Well may be instead of spending tons of money on useless advertisements you think about changing some mechanics of your own game so that people wont quit because your mechanics so flawed for new players and allow the exploits by some terribly bored vets who sit in their Titans and create alts out of boredom to go get their kicks on new players and then complain that there's not enough influx of players in the game.

I do understand an attempt to push players to other then High sectors. But with recent "buff to gankers" strategy all you do is pushing them out of the game.


Well it's dog eat dog world here. U have to adapt or die.
Everyone was at your stage.
Anyway there's been enuf trolling so i won't add any moar.
Instead lemme give ya some hints.
If u insist on jetcan mining - find some nice quiet system off the main traveling routes and missioning systems with close to none traffic.
Or do same thing as most of ppl in EVE - make 2nd account and use it to support your main.
Also if you feel like having fun and want some revenge u can set up some nice traps for can flippers http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndWUlntJ58U

Alex Sinai
Doomheim
#259 - 2012-01-31 09:23:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Alex Sinai
Ai Shun wrote:
Alex Sinai wrote:
I agree that there's always two sides of the medal. What I wanted to do with this post is to raise the discussion so that players share their thoughts on how to may be balance things a bit so that newbies won't rage quit before they even get a taste of real eve and a bit older players won't die out of boredom. Removing ganking completely would be terrible for both sides but balancing it more so that it will actually become blockade running for ones and hunting for others instead of what we got now. May be restricting can flipping to 0.7 and lower with better ores or somehow balancing it so it won't drive miners crazy because 40 minutes of their work went out of window and still be interesting for flippers.


I can't say something like that sits well with me. The whole purpose of a sandbox type environment is to keep the minimum possible rules; not to introduce more. Those rules restrict the game-play more and turn EVE further away from its original concept. It is meant to be harsh, unforgiving and so forth.

It is better for a new player to learn that the first minute they log-in than to discover that six months down the line when they've invested time, effort and started to enjoy the soft experience you want them to have.

Besides, do you really think can-flipping is THAT big a problem?


Can flipping is not a huge problem but not last one. It can be compared to a beautiful sunset on the beach but with mosquitos swarms flying around each hour or two as far as I understand from newbies. It never bothers you on higher level of skills but when you fly catalyst as mining ship it does adds annoyance feeling more then anything else. Eve is more of a social type of mmo, so it requires some time for ppl to wish to disregard some of a more obvious bugs and wait for fixes then to go look for something similar but single player. Many of us started Eve because it's spaceships game.

In any case, one person posted above with so great argumentation that I fully agree with what he says and very much thankful to him for taking the time to prove his points so well that my point of view on the issue changed considerably.

I would like to thank everyone for discussion, even "big epeens". They added some salt to it. A bit too much for my taste but tastes differ. :-)

Don't let them fly safe!
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#260 - 2012-01-31 10:14:32 UTC
Mars Theran wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Mars Theran wrote:

I beg to differ. We had a 20 million Sp requirement on our Wormhole Corp for a reason. Take a Newb into an environment like that, and the best they can hope for is waiting until they can train up Gas-mining, mining, or scanning effectively enough to do something with it. Even then, it's not going to happen overnight, and they are still going to be sitting on their arses for the most part.


This


It's a wormhole Baltec. You get podded it's a one-way trip back to highsec, and you're probably not going to find a way back for a week or two. Do you honestly think one 4-5 minute fight resulting in two weeks seperated from your Corpmates in Highsec is fun?


So teach them. Get them probing, salvage, building stuff, scouting wormhole exits ect. If they die, find your WH exit and have them come back. The skills a little nubbins can learn out in a WH are invaluable and even if they decide its not for them they will at least have a much better grasp of the game thanks to you.

Grabbing a nubbins early is one of the best things to do if you want to expand a corp as most of them want to learn and are very keen to do things. Give them a rifter, a MWD and a warp disrupter and just watch them fly in and try to tackle a dread in the middle of a fight.

The best way to help nubs is to snap them up and teach them, stuffing more cotton wool around them will only result in greater rage quits when they do something stupid in an even more expensive ship.