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Can flippers and gankers in High sec problem
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Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
#201 - 2012-01-30 16:13:25 UTC
Well, you seem pretty impressed by my ability to earn 450M in a session by ganking Exhumers, as you've made several references to my results by now. You seem to suggest that I don't deserve that kind of ISK for my efforts and it suggests imbalance.

So, enlighten me - if Solo-ganking Macks and Hulks profitably without insurance is 'so easy' and requires no skill at all - how would you go about it? Explain it to me. You profess to be an expert what is and isn't balanced. You claim that gankers have it 'too easy', so it shouldn't be hard for you to explain HOW to turn a consistent profit doing it. Here's your chance to showcase your knowledge.

I understand how to mine, how to tank an Exhumer, how to avoid a gank. I can also identify a bot and quickly recognize a bad tank - and how to exploit them. That probably makes me a better miner than 90% of them, and I hardly ever do it. (Well, except to troll miners after killing a bunch of them....nothing like a few cycles of ice after you've cleared out all the riff-raff....)

I want you to illustrate what you KNOW about ganking - other than complaining about it. Or dismissing people like Tippia, who clearly have a much wider experience in-game than you do.
Velicitia
XS Tech
#202 - 2012-01-30 16:17:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Velicitia
Alex Sinai wrote:

Carebears = creative, self-respected and active people who don't necessarily play all of EVE. Generally maligned here because of the ones who cry on the forums that they should be left alone to do stuff.

PvPers = also creative and self-respected active people who play all of EVE

(more stuff)


Now, I'm not saying your post was wrong, but this is generally how it works out.

Nearly everything in the game that one can do is "PvP". Granted things have been lessened in the recent past in some areas (e.g. rock spawns are daily now, not on M/F), making things look "not PVP".

It took me a long time to wrap my head around this (I was a carebear). Actually, if you look on the old forums, you'll probably find at least one occasion where Tippia (or another) was telling me off for being daft about how EVE works.

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia
Shazzam Vokanavom
Doomheim
#203 - 2012-01-30 16:18:41 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Shazzam Vokanavom wrote:
Simple model for idiots who dont understand redistirbution.

Old way: Price of Trit fixed at 10 isk
Miners produce 10 units, Reprocessing produces 1000 units.
Value miners = 100 isk, Value reprocessing = 10,000 isk

New way: Price of Trit still fixed at 10 isk.
Miners produce 15 units, Reprocessing produces 995 units.
Value miners = 150 isk, Value Reprocessing = 9950 isk
Net change = +50% to miners, -0.5% to reproeccesors.
Fixed. Also, you forgot one step:

News of increased mining wealth doubles the miner population.
Net change: -25% value per miner.


Yeah sorry, net rather than total change. Thankyou.

but .... missed your own rebalancing trick ......

Change of increased miners reduces mission runners, reduces reprocessing input.

What assest readjustment shall we afford to that change?
Alexandra Delarge
The Korova
#204 - 2012-01-30 16:20:12 UTC
Here is a simple and effective way to avoid can flippers: Follow the instructions laid out in theMining Guide
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#205 - 2012-01-30 16:27:28 UTC
Shazzam Vokanavom wrote:
but .... missed your own rebalancing trick ......

Change of increased miners reduces mission runners, reduces reprocessing input.

What assest readjustment shall we afford to that change?

Miners stop picking up every last 800 cap charge and finish missions quicker, and thus earn more money. Net change ±0%. Blink
Surfin's PlunderBunny
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#206 - 2012-01-30 16:32:09 UTC
Liam Mirren wrote:
OP failed to realise (we all did in the beginning, guess what; we're still here) that EVE is a harsh PVP environment which manifests itself in many different ways. If you had several can flippers on the same day don't you think said newbies should THINK about what they're doing and what they should be doing differently? It's not very difficult to ask in rookie/help chat what can be done about it, LEARN what can be done about is and create some teamwork.

In other words, learn from it, deal with it and if you don't or can't adapt, get out.



Translation: *coughs* ahem...

Hahaha OP is stupid! Grow a pair then come back and we might let you speak....

"Little ginger moron" ~David Hasselhoff 

Want to see what Surf is training or how little isk Surf has?  http://eveboard.com/pilot/Surfin%27s_PlunderBunny
Liam Mirren
#207 - 2012-01-30 16:37:46 UTC
Surfin's PlunderBunny wrote:
Translation: *coughs* ahem...

Hahaha OP is lazy! Put in some effort and you'll find things suddenly work out better....


FTFY

I expected better of you tbh.

Excellence is not a skill, it's an attitude.
None ofthe Above
#208 - 2012-01-30 16:41:19 UTC
Ronald Ray Gun wrote:
Try reading the official mining guide. Nowhere does it mention jet can mining. No jetcan means no flippers. Simple.


In game tutorial still mentions it. Noticed that the other day while training up an alt.

The only end-game content in EVE Online is the crap that makes you rage quit.
Shazzam Vokanavom
Doomheim
#209 - 2012-01-30 16:49:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Shazzam Vokanavom
Herr Wilkus wrote:
Well, you seem pretty impressed by my ability to earn 450M in a session by ganking Exhumers, as you've made several references to my results by now. You seem to suggest that I don't deserve that kind of ISK for my efforts and it suggests imbalance.

So, enlighten me - if Solo-ganking Macks and Hulks profitably without insurance is 'so easy' and requires no skill at all - how would you go about it? Explain it to me. You profess to be an expert what is and isn't balanced. You claim that gankers have it 'too easy', so it shouldn't be hard for you to explain HOW to turn a consistent profit doing it. Here's your chance to showcase your knowledge.

I understand how to mine, how to tank an Exhumer, how to avoid a gank. I can also identify a bot and quickly recognize a bad tank - and how to exploit them. That probably makes me a better miner than 90% of them, and I hardly ever do it. (Well, except to troll miners after killing a bunch of them....nothing like a few cycles of ice after you've cleared out all the riff-raff....)

I want you to illustrate what you KNOW about ganking - other than complaining about it. Or dismissing people like Tippia, who clearly have a much wider experience in-game than you do.


Already stated I'm not a ganker before. Should give an obvious understanding of my practical application.

No interest to do so. Logically it does not afford me to say I don't know the mechanics in theory.

If your Epeen is so hurt about me calling ganking bad by attacking soft targets well? Not my problem.

I'm sure there is a lot of clever activities in terms of picking a target and I wouldn't say it is not an ativity of redundancy to some thought. But its a pretty much open a shut case of find target, once established, point and fire, wait for Concordokken. Whatever tactics you may have rehearsed in terms of bait, cuckoo or other clever tactics am sure deserve some recognition also.

I'm not looking at it from that level of the spectrum of combat activities. What about all the planning and activity that goes into all of the various industrial activities. Whilst the physical aspect of mining could be viewed as point guns at rock then fire, wait for cargo to get full, keep aware etc. Isnt exactly einstein and riveting it still doesnt elimante all the various activities associated with the role.

Most aspects of the role are asscoated with planning that afford any exercising of the brain cells.

But I'm not going to dismiss the risk that we face in how we manage our acceptable losses.Anyone who doesn't figure these in to their mining plans could be asking to fail. Or are you now saying that all industrials should now simply just ignore all the industrial losses as relevant?


As to Tippia, she is a pain and she jolly well knows it. She wont be happy until she has disected every last minute aspect of detail and then will deconstruct the scalpel, her facemask, gloves, the operating table then the theatre until she finds the answer to why the patient wasn't on the table to begin with. Roll

I really don't mind reminding her how obtuse he/she is. Probably a nice person if you try to simply go the popularity route, but just because she annoys the hell out of people or their arguments you don't like and then try for a popularity strike doesn't always make her opinion right or unflawed. (Case and point above)
Liam Mirren
#210 - 2012-01-30 16:56:01 UTC
Here's a tip; if you WOULD put in effort to learn how gankers make profit or how can flipping works or anything else that affects you.... you might figure out how to counter it. And that really is the crux; if you're too lazy to learn how to avoid becoming a victim (by putting in effort to learn how and why things happen) then you only have yourself to blame.

I'll state it again, it's SUPER EASY to avoid being ganked or can flipped, like seriously easy. It doesn't involve massive, high SP ships, it doesn't involve fighting back and it doesn't involve 17 alts. All it requires is some effort and a bit of knowledge. So, why should we care for people who choose to not put in that effort? Why should a miner who puts in ZERO effort into securing his assets be just as safe as a miner who DOES put in that effort and time?

Excellence is not a skill, it's an attitude.
ILikeMarkets
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#211 - 2012-01-30 17:01:04 UTC
I figure CCP never intended EVE to break 50,000 concurrent users. Can you imagine the nightmare if there were 100,000 players on at once?

That's the hell we'd have to deal with if can flipping wasn't possible. Luckily, it is. The flippers help keep the population numbers at a respectable amount. Leave them to their work, please.

Proof that capital ships are rare in EVE: http://imgur.com/gallery/jJJE1
arcca jeth
Dark Alliance
#212 - 2012-01-30 17:03:33 UTC
I remember when I 1st got into mining, but it wasnt until I could fly an Osprey. Then I mined with a Rokh, jetcan mining.

But in all honesty, when I look back. I would have been better off running missions while training to fly the Hulk. I would have made a lot more isk while training up. Best advice I could give a prospective new player interested in mining would be just that. Run missions while training. and that's if you REALLY want to mine. Because after awhile, once that player gets to level 4's they may completely lose interest in mining.

if someone is being pestered by can flippers and bumpers/gankers. the best option is to move. there is nothing in highsec that you cannot find in another system that has less than 20 people online in it at any given time.
Shazzam Vokanavom
Doomheim
#213 - 2012-01-30 17:03:56 UTC
Liam Mirren wrote:
Here's a tip; if you WOULD put in effort to learn how gankers make profit or how can flipping works or anything else that affects you.... you might figure out how to counter it. And that really is the crux; if you're too lazy to learn how to avoid becoming a victim (by putting in effort to learn how and why things happen) then you only have yourself to blame.

I'll state it again, it's SUPER EASY to avoid being ganked or can flipped, like seriously easy. It doesn't involve massive, high SP ships, it doesn't involve fighting back and it doesn't involve 17 alts. All it requires is some effort and a bit of knowledge. So, why should we care for people who choose to not put in that effort? Why should a miner who puts in ZERO effort into securing his assets be just as safe as a miner who DOES put in that effort and time?


Yawn. Repeat ad infinitum. Must be an echo. How many times has this irrefutable point of view be forced down my throat as something I have to swallow.

Short of saying a big expletive: Old ground, read above.


But just to demonstrate your bias, how much SP does it take to fit a destroyer. Then compare that to the SP to be an effective miner, an effective refiner and an effect industrialist to make best economical oppurtunities and make a profit from the role to actually make any reasonable income. You'd be surprised how much is the answer. Its not just jump into a mining frigate and suddenly its all mai tais at 11 o'clock.

Someone find me a reasonable person who doesnt want to just get paid by Goonies in Hulkageddon, plz, I'm praying, no begging, WHERE IS THE SANITY ........... fizz, whip, bang, poof !!!

Tired now, having been overwhelmed by so many, and not being able to actually play internet spaceships. Play nice kiddies, know you wont. Some other babysitter will be by soon to infuriate you with reason shortly I'm sure.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#214 - 2012-01-30 17:16:53 UTC
Shazzam Vokanavom wrote:
As to Tippia, she is a pain and she jolly well knows it.
Yes, I know that trolls get infuriated by me asking them to provide data or reasons or arguments to support their assertions. I also know that someone who has an actual point to make will have no problems doing the same.
Quote:
She wont be happy until she has disected every last minute aspect of detail and then will deconstruct the scalpel, her facemask, gloves, the operating table then the theatre until she finds the answer to why the patient wasn't on the table to begin with. Roll
Fun fact: deconstruction is a very useful technique for determining what the actual issue is.
Quote:
I really don't mind reminding her how obtuse he/she is.
The problem is that you should probably spend that energy on trying to explain the issue instead, since the supposed obtuseness is merely a tool to highlight the unfounded nature of the claims being made.

Shazzam Vokanavom wrote:
But just to demonstrate your bias, how much SP does it take to fit a destroyer. Then compare that to the SP to be an effective miner, an effective refiner and an effect industrialist to make best economical oppurtunities and make a profit from the role to actually make any reasonable income. You'd be surprised how much is the answer.
No-one is surprised by the answer. What's surprising is that you think it's even remotely relevant to anything. In your own words: old ground, read above. EVE is not like any other game, where bigger is better, where higher price buys absolute or even proportionally higher effectiveness, and it most certainly isn't a game where “higher level” is a ticket to success.

It's not a bias — it's intentional game design. The ability for a low-SP destroyer to completely ruin a high-SP Hulk's day is proof positive that the game is working as intended. It most certainly isn't a problem in any shape or form.
Liam Mirren
#215 - 2012-01-30 17:23:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Liam Mirren
Shazzam Vokanavom wrote:
Yawn. Repeat ad infinitum. Must be an echo. How many times has this irrefutable point of view be forced down my throat as something I have to swallow.

Short of saying a big expletive: Old ground, read above.


It gets repeated because it's truth.

No effort, no gain. If you're gonna be dumb you gotta be tough.

Excellence is not a skill, it's an attitude.
Herr Wilkus
Aggressive Salvage Services LLC
#216 - 2012-01-30 17:30:14 UTC
Funny to watch you talk down to people who know far more about this game than you do.

How long to fly a dessie? About as long as it takes to train into DC II - which by itself, makes you invulnerable to most destroyers, as well as many Tornados. Oh, wait, but using a DCII would slightly slow down your mining efficiency, so thats right out, huh?

The amount of SP it takes to train the proper mods for tanking a Hulk are trivial compared to the length of time it takes to train the Large Projectile skills it takes to instapop even a badly tanked Hulk with a Tornado.

My point had little to do with epeen and more to do with:

I know a lot about Hulk tanks - and that make me a better ganker.

What little you did say shows you know jackshit about ganking - and, thus, you have no idea how to effectively counter it. Thus the whining to have 'mommy and daddy' change the conditions of the game because its 'so unfair'.

This game rewards knowledge and adaptability. It punishes stupidity and arrogance.

And thats why you mine and get ganked, while I do the ganking and make far more ISK doing it.
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#217 - 2012-01-30 17:38:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Solstice Project
Tippia wrote:
Fun fact: deconstruction is a very useful technique for determining what the actual issue is.


Yep.
The reason why this is needed lies within those who don't use the proper words to describe the issues they have.
Wow, what a sentence. ^^

Don't blame Tippia for having to deconstruct most of the stuff that's written on the forum ... blame people for not
being exact and detailed about their thoughts and feelings.

TL;DR: Confirming Tippia. Wow, i really must be sick ... lol


Edit: I have experience in ganking and ganking gankers. I love them for being part of the game and for the ability to shoot
them just so (GCC) and i would never want them to get removed, simply because they are a valid part of the game and i
can blow their pods up when they are -5 or suicide their pods if they have bounty, but aren't criminals. ^^
Argyle Jones
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#218 - 2012-01-30 17:41:27 UTC
Ludi Burek wrote:
Shazzam Vokanavom, you seem to state yourself that eve shouldn't cater to the lowest common denominator. Who do you think is the victim in almost all gank cases? The lazy, ignorant people. Is that who you're defending?


I'm kinda split on the whole issue, but what you're saying here is a bit of a stretch. The ganker can fall on his prey at any time, in any place, meaning the prey has to be alert at all times. Just cause you fail to d-scan every 5 seconds for the whole time you're mining doesn't necessarily mean you're lazy or ignorant. Maybe you had to check the market, or someone sent you a convo or whatever...

I suppose it's not unfair to say that mining in an exhumer in empire space has essentially become just as dangerous than ratting in a battleship in 0.0, in the sense that a miner now has to check his d-scan constantly for catalysts and tornados and watch local for known gankers. Whether that is what CCP intends with high-security space or not I have no idea.

I just don't think it's a fair argument to say anyone who falls prey to a gank is lazy and stupid.

/Yargle
Marduk Nibiru
Chaos Delivery Systems
#219 - 2012-01-30 17:46:32 UTC
Alex Sinai wrote:
Valentyn3 wrote:
Don't use jet cans for mining?



So old that forgot when you was new and flew ships that could not hold more then tiny amounts of ore?


I'm building an Industry alt. I know exactly how annoying it is. I have to either mine in a frig or destroyer and can mine...or mine in a cheap hauler with 5k storage.

Guess which I choose. I AFK mine and either play my main, another alt, read, or watch TV. Some day I make get ganked but I'm pulling a profit none the less.

Guess what I do when I see someone jet can mining. That's right, I wait for a while, meander on over, and take their ore.

Results in some serious lols actually. People get all kinds of passive aggressive. "Can't wait to catch you out in lowsec!"

I especially like when they put out secure containers in .9 systems and mine into them. I just cruise over and take the can, I don't even have to wait out an aggression timer in the station. Then I repackage, get the ore, and sell the can on the market. Guess who buys it...

What you never see me doing, is dropping a can...unless of course I'm trying to trick you into bending over.

What I am doing, which newbs probably don't know much about (which is why you should join a *good* corp), is setting up for the future. I'm training in skills I need to build stuff, training and occasionally grinding for standing so I get perfect refinement...tossing blueprints into labs that won't be finished for a very long time...In a few months my toon will actually be able to make ISK rather than suck it up.

The problem with a lot of newbs though is that they want to start out easy and be able to make piles and piles of ISK without working for it. I'm not making much of anything right now. I occasionally do a contract run that looks good but you can bet I'm working from the assumption that it's a scam every time. I play smart and take only those risks I'm willing to suffer. Instead of changing the game to be something else, this is what newbs need to be learning to do. Don't turn Chess into Sorry just because you can't figure it out immediately.
Marduk Nibiru
Chaos Delivery Systems
#220 - 2012-01-30 17:56:18 UTC
Argyle Jones wrote:

I just don't think it's a fair argument to say anyone who falls prey to a gank is lazy and stupid.

/Yargle



I'd agree with this. If you're going to be a miner you need to work from the assumption that you're going to get ganked sometime. You need to learn how to mitigate the issue. Consider your ship cost as part of the operating cost of your ISK making scheme. Don't fly it if you can't afford to lose it. Get out of the pipelines. Consider some tank and/or warp stabs instead of those cargo extenders. Make it cost to kill you. Make it difficult to find you; most gankers are lazy, which is why they're after the lazy kills. I should know, I've done it many times.

For example, mine in some deep hole in some backwater system nobody goes to. Someday you'll get ganked there, but shouldn't be every day like all these newbs cry about. You'll need to do some hauling of course, which makes you vulnerable, but you should still be able to pull a profit.

I don't think that all those that get ganked are lazy or stupid. It's a part of eve. Even PvP players get ganked (anyone saying otherwise hasn't done real PvP yet because there's no way to avoid the surprise butt sex that's out there waiting). The people that are always bitching about it though....I think it IS fair to say they're lazy and/or stupid.