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Mining of the future: we need refreshment! BLACK OPS MINING!
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Yorick rashnikov
The Illuminatii
Wrecktical Supremacy.
#21 - 2012-01-31 07:07:59 UTC
Gerrick Palivorn wrote:
There are some great ideas here, don't get me wrong, but it is way to complicated and overpowered in many ways.

Only a few things are needed to make this concept a reality, as almost everything else that you mentioned in OP exhists in some fashion elsewhere in the game. No to T2 Rorq, no to scout.

All that is really needed is some innovative fits and two new ships.

First is the idea of a Partial Jump Drive, this is basically a Jump Drive that does not have all the astrometric systems that can lock onto Cyno's.
-This requires the use of an active jump portal in order to utilize the jump drive.
-Ships will jump under there own power, using there own fuel
-Ships with Jump Harmonics 2 can piggyback onto covert cynos

Second there needs to be a counter to hotdrops to enable longevity of covert fleets. Black ops will be able to use a module that creates a deadspace pocket on the current grid (maybe 150km?)
-This is an active module and the ship must be decloaked to use it.
-Cyno's cannot be lit while the deadspace pocket is active, covert cyno's can be lit
-Signature strengths of ships being scanned inside the pocket are reduced 50%
-Ganglinks that are off grid do not effect ship in the pocket, and ganglinks that are active inside grid only effect ships on grid

New ship
Covert Industrial Command Ship
T2 Orca
Added fuel bay and partial jump drive with Jump Harmonics 2
Uses regular cloak, no need to use a Covops cloak for this thing
5% Shield Resist and 10% drone HP/Dam per level with Covert Industrial Commandship
Dronebay increased to 300 and Bandwidth increased to 125
T2 Resists and 5% increase in HP for shield/armor/hull
+1 Midslot and +1 Highslot
+Same Bonuses as T1 Orca

New ship
Covert Exhumer
T2 Exhumer Based off of the hulk hull
Added fuel bay and partial jump drive with Jump Harmonics 2
Uses Regular cloak, Covops cloaks reserved for combat ships
Yield bonus to Ore, Ice and Gas harvesters per level
20% Range bonus to miners
Role: Range bonus to Survey Scanners

The scout ship role is already fulfilled with covop frigates, no need for a new ship there.

What do you think, keeping the spirit of the idea and making it mesh more with the current ship archetypes, providing little overlaping roles. Also, a ship with gas mining bonus.

this idea is not bad either, but if people come from high-sec and carebearing into cov ops mining, it may discourage them since they can't get safely in to high-sec again, due to gatecamps.
the rorqual hull i designed can of course be switched to orca hull, this is just ideas.

but i would like to keep the design of stats etc. this way because it makes this type of mining a niche thing.
Yorick rashnikov
The Illuminatii
Wrecktical Supremacy.
#22 - 2012-01-31 07:13:42 UTC
Katrinazinski wrote:
Do not choose the mining or ratting profession in Eve. At present, the mining profession has become a "dead end" due to a Null Sec tactic with cloaked ships.

You cannot successfully mine in Null Sec if you are member of a small or medium alliance. Bitter vets have discovered how to use alts in cloaked ships to basically "grief" all industrial activities in enemy systems. CSM approves of this activity, because they think it leads to more hostilities and conflicts. In fact, the industrialists usually have no idea which enemy is backing the "neutral" cloaked pilot. And, some pilots just enjoy giving this grief. Miners are a primary target. So are the ratters.

At present, cloaked ships can stay cloaked 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. In this way, only one "alt" account can shut down industrial activities in just about any system in null sec. Provided, of course, the hostile kills an industrial pilot once in awhile (or serves as the "warp in" for his buddies once and awhile to kill an industrial pilot).

While there are counters to this tactic of pilots who grief systems cloaked (usually AFK) for days and weeks on a 24/7 basis. The only effective tactic against this grief is to join a HUGE alliance with enough space that the industrial pilot can find a "quiet" system. Since most of your CSM representatives are elected by LARGE alliances, guess who approves this tactic? CSM approves this tactic. CCP approves this tactic. They say that it is to "increase conflict"? No. I think it is intended to keep the small alliances down by denying them the ability to maximize their industrial potential. But, that's just my opinion.

How to counter this problem if you are a miner? Just QUIT GAME. The pilot won't grief an empty system. But, then again... that only benefits the large alliances, doesn't it?

Anticipating the response saying I'm a whiner, and saying you just kill the cloaky dudes ... I ask for proof or STFU. Because, you cannot scan down a cloaked ship. IF the guy is AFK 23/7, this means you can put your team on the scanning job for 24/7 and maybe find him. But, have you ever tried to scan down a cloaked ship 24/7? Oh, so you want to bubble and watch the gates 24/7, too? Get serious. The cloaked ship has bookmarks to avoid such traps and will laugh at your feeble attempts. We could call bullshit, but this is an approved feature of the game, not a bug and not an exploit.

What we really need is a new MMORPG game. Maybe a clone that is "like Eve". A new game, which would emphasize industrial cooperation for your PvP wins. At that point, you might get CCP's attention to this insufferable problem called the 24/7 cloaked AFK grief ship. CSM won't deal with it. CCP won't deal with it.

There's a cloaked ship coming soon - to a system near your hulks and ratting ships. ATTENTION, all Ratters and Miners . . . PREPARE TO QUIT GAME !


did you actually read my concept/post it's pretty much a ''solution'' to the whole ''mining is boring and inefficient in low/null'' and a new way of making mining more interactive.
your rant is pretty much worthless in this thread.
Shirah Yuri
Tonic Empire
#23 - 2012-01-31 10:03:01 UTC
Yorick rashnikov wrote:
this idea is not bad either, but if people come from high-sec and carebearing into cov ops mining, it may discourage them since they can't get safely in to high-sec again, due to gatecamps.
the rorqual hull i designed can of course be switched to orca hull, this is just ideas.

but i would like to keep the design of stats etc. this way because it makes this type of mining a niche thing.


How can they not get back into highsec when they've got cov-ops jumpability? Place a scout into highsec-adjacent lowsec, jump there. WTZ to highsec gate. Lowsec has no bubbles, remember?

And... please, let's NOT see too many "covert opsy" ships. Those "mining" vessels (covert ops orca? *shudder*) could very very easily be abused.

I said it before and I'll gladly repeat it: T2 Rorqual that can jump to covert ops cyno is all that's needed for "blackops mining" and cannot be abused THAT easily. Why change more?

Problem it would still have: It would still render quite some Jump Freighters useless (apart from JF's being able to enter highsec, other than Rorq's)
Yorick rashnikov
The Illuminatii
Wrecktical Supremacy.
#24 - 2012-01-31 10:09:00 UTC
Shirah Yuri wrote:
Yorick rashnikov wrote:
this idea is not bad either, but if people come from high-sec and carebearing into cov ops mining, it may discourage them since they can't get safely in to high-sec again, due to gatecamps.
the rorqual hull i designed can of course be switched to orca hull, this is just ideas.

but i would like to keep the design of stats etc. this way because it makes this type of mining a niche thing.


How can they not get back into highsec when they've got cov-ops jumpability? Place a scout into highsec-adjacent lowsec, jump there. WTZ to highsec gate. Lowsec has no bubbles, remember?

And... please, let's NOT see too many "covert opsy" ships. Those "mining" vessels (covert ops orca? *shudder*) could very very easily be abused.

I said it before and I'll gladly repeat it: T2 Rorqual that can jump to covert ops cyno is all that's needed for "blackops mining" and cannot be abused THAT easily. Why change more?

Problem it would still have: It would still render quite some Jump Freighters useless (apart from JF's being able to enter highsec, other than Rorq's)

ยจ
No a t2 rorqual with jump drive is simply not the solution, because it would still expose the miners.
the whole concept is worked towards making it more ''safe'' for mining vessels in the way that they can get out fast, and make low-sec ores more accessible for people who spend most of their time in highsec.
Shirah Yuri
Tonic Empire
#25 - 2012-01-31 10:19:26 UTC
Yorick rashnikov wrote:
No a t2 rorqual with jump drive is simply not the solution, because it would still expose the miners.
the whole concept is worked towards making it more ''safe'' for mining vessels in the way that they can get out fast, and make low-sec ores more accessible for people who spend most of their time in highsec.


What keeps a miner from using a cloak, or from storing his vessel back into the rorqual's belly if enemies should pull up? Mining, or actually EXISTING in nullsec is not supposed to be risk free. If there is a point in blackOps mining, then the point should alltogether be: Get in and out without lighting a big big beacon screaming "THERE'S SOMEONE JUMPING HERE!", not "make low- or nullsec easy, because I can get away no matter what".
Yorick rashnikov
The Illuminatii
Wrecktical Supremacy.
#26 - 2012-01-31 10:24:31 UTC
Shirah Yuri wrote:
Yorick rashnikov wrote:
No a t2 rorqual with jump drive is simply not the solution, because it would still expose the miners.
the whole concept is worked towards making it more ''safe'' for mining vessels in the way that they can get out fast, and make low-sec ores more accessible for people who spend most of their time in highsec.


What keeps a miner from using a cloak, or from storing his vessel back into the rorqual's belly if enemies should pull up? Mining, or actually EXISTING in nullsec is not supposed to be risk free. If there is a point in blackOps mining, then the point should alltogether be: Get in and out without lighting a big big beacon screaming "THERE'S SOMEONE JUMPING HERE!", not "make low- or nullsec easy, because I can get away no matter what".



storing your ship in the rorqual renders your pod free to kill.
you still need to de-target all roids in order to cloak.

and it's not supposed to make it easy, just more accesible to miners that cant/aint in a nullsec alliance.
Shirah Yuri
Tonic Empire
#27 - 2012-01-31 12:34:43 UTC
Yorick rashnikov wrote:
you still need to de-target all roids in order to cloak.


Umm.... yes. Right. Sounds kinda like impossible to do.... o.O
Demonfuge Malevolent
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#28 - 2012-01-31 14:26:18 UTC
+1

I approve of Black Ops mining, sounds cool (for mining)
Droxlyn
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#29 - 2012-01-31 15:03:14 UTC
While I like the idea, why not give to all Exhumers a jump drive?
Add Jump Drive Operation 1 to the skill prereqs.
This would differentiate them from Mining Barges.
They could just follow a Rorqual to a mining site.
They could jump away in case of danger.

Doesn't help high-sec much. (jump into lowsec?)
Doesn't change yields.
Fidelium Mortis
Minor Major Miners LLC
#30 - 2012-01-31 15:55:15 UTC
In general I like the concept, but I think the proposed ships are too safe, and will potentially make a number of the current mining ships obsolete. Also before any of these ships are implemented, they need to provide a greater incentive for mining, especially mining in low/null sec.

The standard mining ship should essentially be a Hulk with a covert-ops cloak, and should have a slightly lower overall mining yield. Tradeoffs are key. A Hulk should have greater overall yield due to the greater danger associated with mining in one. The tanking ability and agility should also remain roughly the same. If rats are really an issue, the mining party should have some combat oriented cov-ops/recons on hand for protection.

I think the T2 Rorqual should probably lose most of its standard cargo hold and corp hangar bay, in exchange for a bay dedicated to raw/compressed ore, to encourage its use as a base of operations for mining. The cloaking bonus should also be the same as the black-ops battleships (if not a greater speed bonus). Again tradeoffs are key. You lose some of the versatility of the Rorqual in exchange for the mobility/safety.

ICRS - Intergalactic Certified Rocket Surgeon
AFK Hauler
State War Academy
#31 - 2012-01-31 16:17:01 UTC
Fidelium Mortis wrote:
In general I like the concept, but I think the proposed ships are too safe, and will potentially make a number of the current mining ships obsolete. Also before any of these ships are implemented, they need to provide a greater incentive for mining, especially mining in low/null sec.

The standard mining ship should essentially be a Hulk with a covert-ops cloak, and should have a slightly lower overall mining yield. Tradeoffs are key. A Hulk should have greater overall yield due to the greater danger associated with mining in one. The tanking ability and agility should also remain roughly the same. If rats are really an issue, the mining party should have some combat oriented cov-ops/recons on hand for protection.

I think the T2 Rorqual should probably lose most of its standard cargo hold and corp hangar bay, in exchange for a bay dedicated to raw/compressed ore, to encourage its use as a base of operations for mining. The cloaking bonus should also be the same as the black-ops battleships (if not a greater speed bonus). Again tradeoffs are key. You lose some of the versatility of the Rorqual in exchange for the mobility/safety.




Why not just limit the covert mod activation to low/nul sec space? That would prevent these type ships from becoming the "norm."

The idea is not to make the miners life easy, but to get the miners into more dangerous space with higher profits for greater risks. So I agree with these ideas.

Another idea that can be implemented for the risk/reward would be a siege type miner that can only deploy in low/nul sec and has almost no cargo space. Forces the player to jet can mine or mine in close range to support/hauler, which increases the risk/reward factor.

Tradeoffs are likely to be accepted more readily than wholesale new ideas... sad, especially since independent low/nul sec miners need some love.


We can still dream, right?
Yorick rashnikov
The Illuminatii
Wrecktical Supremacy.
#32 - 2012-01-31 20:29:19 UTC
Shirah Yuri wrote:
Yorick rashnikov wrote:
you still need to de-target all roids in order to cloak.


Umm.... yes. Right. Sounds kinda like impossible to do.... o.O

by the time you have de-targeted all the roids, you'll be locked down if hostiles warps in :p
Yorick rashnikov
The Illuminatii
Wrecktical Supremacy.
#33 - 2012-02-01 07:07:17 UTC
just a very shamefull bump Lol
Wolodymyr
Breaking Ambitions
#34 - 2012-02-01 08:37:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Wolodymyr
Katrinazinski wrote:
Do not choose the mining or ratting profession in Eve. At present, the mining profession has become a "dead end" due to a Null Sec tactic with cloaked ships.

As much as I dislike AFK cloaking........

I think the real problem with mining in general is the devaluation of minerals through bot mining and drone rat loot drops that refine into high end minerals.

Even if you are sitting in null completely undisturbed you will make far more isk per hour running havens than mining and selling the ore. And no amount of cracking down of AFK cloaking or bizarre black ops mining ships are going to change that.

I honestly think PoCo based sov is a good idea https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1417544
Yorick rashnikov
The Illuminatii
Wrecktical Supremacy.
#35 - 2012-02-01 09:31:59 UTC
Wolodymyr wrote:
Katrinazinski wrote:
Do not choose the mining or ratting profession in Eve. At present, the mining profession has become a "dead end" due to a Null Sec tactic with cloaked ships.

As much as I dislike AFK cloaking........

I think the real problem with mining in general is the devaluation of minerals through bot mining and drone rat loot drops that refine into high end minerals.

Even if you are sitting in null completely undisturbed you will make far more isk per hour running havens than mining and selling the ore. And no amount of cracking down of AFK cloaking or bizarre black ops mining ships are going to change that.


the goal of the concept is to make it more appealing for high-sec miners to experience other parts of eve than high-sec and ice belts.
as well allow high-sec miners to make more money than the ''capped'' income you got mining high-sec ores, not as a tool to make more money than drone ratters or mission runners.
Yorick rashnikov
The Illuminatii
Wrecktical Supremacy.
#36 - 2012-02-02 11:39:40 UTC
a bump of shamefulness.... Sad
Yorick rashnikov
The Illuminatii
Wrecktical Supremacy.
#37 - 2012-02-06 08:51:06 UTC
Yorick rashnikov wrote:
a bump of shamefulness.... Sad
Rhianna Ghost
Ghost Industries Inc.
#38 - 2012-02-07 13:56:42 UTC
I like the idea of Covert Mining.

But one has to be carefull not to overpower the ships. Maybe a line of new T2 Mining Barges simillar to Transport Ships would be enough:

Covert Miner:
T2 Retriver with Covert Cloaking. Allowed too use Covert Jump Bridges.

Or Hardy Miner:
T2 Covertor with more Cargo, more Tank and more Warp Strength

As support maybe a T2 Orca without CorpHangar, but more Ore Bay. And simmilar to the BlackOps-Ships: no Covert Cloak, but Covert Jump Bridge. (For that to work without beeing overpowered the SMA has to be restricted to Covert Ships too...)

The Hulk should remain uncontested King of the Hill regarding mining amount. It is enough on the edge to too much already.

Production Cost of the Covert Mining Ships should be a bit lower than the costs of the Exhumers, as they are prone to losses anyways. Maybe about 80mio or something.

I would go mine in such a setup, even if just for the fun of it.

Rhi
Yorick rashnikov
The Illuminatii
Wrecktical Supremacy.
#39 - 2012-02-10 11:17:51 UTC
Rhianna Ghost wrote:
I like the idea of Covert Mining.


The Hulk should remain uncontested King of the Hill regarding mining amount. It is enough on the edge to too much already.



Rhi


Thats why the suggestions i made have less mining yield than a hulk.
Yorick rashnikov
The Illuminatii
Wrecktical Supremacy.
#40 - 2012-02-21 07:56:03 UTC
very, very necro-ish shamefull bump....
i hate myself for doing this Oops
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