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Ship Balancing: Dramiel! (and Logistics)

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Jude Lloyd
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#41 - 2011-09-15 06:52:24 UTC
Nerf CONCORD, they have some absurd weapons that aren't even for sale on the blackest of markets.

I'm back!
Arkady Sadik
Gradient
Electus Matari
#42 - 2011-09-17 08:57:58 UTC
Uh, accidentally opened a new thread for this, so reposting here:

Arkady Sadik wrote:
There was a thread on the old forums - http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1525620 - about an upcoming ship balance, partly about logistics ships. I'd like to revive the discussion. (If you want to discuss the Dramiel, make a new thread.)

Quoting my own suggestion from that thread:

Arkady Sadik wrote:
Regarding the Oneiros, you want it to be similar, but not identical to the Guardian - each should have their own flavor.

The Oneiros should:
- Drop a mid in favor of a low slot so it can fit sensible resist mods
- Be able to fit an 800mm RT plate, 4 LRAR and perma-run them if it fits an AB (not with MWD)
- Be able to fit a 1600mm RT plate in the above if it puts in some kind of faction gear somewhere, or downgrades one RR to medium

The above makes it roughly equivalent to the Guardian in utility. It is more susceptible to cap warfare and can not support other fleet members with cap, but does not require a second Oneiros to work. Tank should be similar, with slightly worse EHP and similar resists. (Think about rebalancing Guardians so they require two large energy transfers to perma-run 4 LRAR even at logi 5, which reduces their extreme utility at providing 4 LRAR *and* cap bonus to fleet members; it should be able to run 3 LRAR + 1 LETA with only 1 LETA incoming and outgoing, not 4 LRAR + 1 LETA)

Next, give the Oneiros some unique flavor.

- Do not increase base armor
- Give it a lower signature, higher speed and higher agility than the Guardian (I would actually argue for increasing the sig of the Guardian, not decreasing the sig of the Oneiros)

This makes the Oneiros distinctly more desirable for AHAC fleets, while the Guardian remains more useful for huge fleet fights in combination with Abaddons.
We also recently had an idea for the Oneiros' and Scimitar's second bonus, replacing the mostly useless tracking link bonus: It would be quite awesome if that could be switched to a strength bonus (5% or 10% per level?) to Remote ECCM.

This would make it interesting to those logistics to stick to remote ECCM and make groups of them more difficult to jam than Guardians/Basilisks, making Guardian/Basilisks susceptible to ECM but rather strong against cap warfare, while Oneiros/Scimitars would be strong against ECM but susceptible to cap warfare. Again, providing each type a kind of unique flavor, as well as giving an incentive to mix those ships in fleets.
Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
#43 - 2011-09-17 09:06:08 UTC
I too shall repost from Sadik's thread! Big smile

Higher signature for Guardian?

Only if it gets a few more gunslots! Been wanting to take out a combat Guardian for the 'lolz' but damage is anemic to say the least.
Would be sweet if the logistics were at least given the option (ie. not actual bonuses) of combat fittings as they are one of the very few one-trick ponies by design in Eve.

Agree with the idea of speeding the Oni up and making it smaller rather than just giving it more EHP. Opens up the ranged logi role similar to Scimitar's .. especially if the slot is moved .. and more functional roles is never a bad thing (unless you are an SC and have too many! :))
Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#44 - 2011-09-17 11:29:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Pattern Clarc
If the goal for the summer expansion is to increase small gang warfare, increasing the speeds of frigates and destroyers (with the sabre and dramiel receiving less of a boost) would go some way to helping them - Frig survivability needs to be improved. They have too many predators without heavy missiles and artillery and autocannons being considered, and the signature reduction bonus didn't do enough.
http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/14/view/news/page/1/read/21840/EVE-Online-Winter-Expansion-and-the-Future-of-EVE.html

Before overloaded and implants, the fastest interceptors should be capable of 6kms, with ships like the AF's getting a reasonable speed boost too via a 4th bonus...

Essentially the dynamic is thus, tech 3's and hac's are preferred because of EHP, whilst frigs contribute little to dps, and often spend a lot of time trying not to die instead of doing something useful.

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction
Aloe Cloveris
The Greater Goon
#45 - 2011-09-21 01:06:11 UTC
Ajurna Jakar wrote:
rapier or a huginn, even a curse or pilgrim to a lesser extent and thats one dead dram.


Yeah, in my Dramiel-piloting experience it was super-duper tough to casually doubleclick my way to safety in a randomly chosen direction whenever a Recon landed on grid & spent a few additional seconds 'coming out of warp' and/or waited for the 6-second cloak targeting penalty to expire & took an additional 8 seconds to lock me because scan res vs. sig radius.

All of my Dram losses will certainly attest to that.
Sphit Ker
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#46 - 2011-09-21 09:02:07 UTC
Aloe Cloveris wrote:
Ajurna Jakar wrote:
rapier or a huginn, even a curse or pilgrim to a lesser extent and thats one dead dram.


Yeah, in my Dramiel-piloting experience it was super-duper tough to casually doubleclick my way to safety in a randomly chosen direction whenever a Recon landed on grid & spent a few additional seconds 'coming out of warp' and/or waited for the 6-second cloak targeting penalty to expire & took an additional 8 seconds to lock me because scan res vs. sig radius.

All of my Dram losses will certainly attest to that.



yea. that`s the joke. By the time any of those actually land a complete lock on the dram, it`s already far away from tackling range. If it`s not then it was dead already anyway... or stupid... or got struck by the carebear stare.

The crux of this is, whatever `counter` you figure out against a dram is going to be equally effective against ANY other ship.

Dram is too quick. It`s OK to take some of it away; it will still be a Dramiel.

It knows what you think.
Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#47 - 2011-09-21 14:13:23 UTC
The Basilisk and the Scimitar are well balanced. The Scimitar, being faster and having a smaller sig, is favoured in gangs where mobility is important; the fatter slower Basilisk is better in slower gangs where repping power and cap transfer is more useful.

This should be the model for the Guardian and the Oneiros. But it isn't, not only because fast armour gangs is a bit of a contradiction, but because the Guardian has too small a sig and is too fast. Currently:

Guardian: Sig 70 m, base speed 261 m/s, base agility 7.2 s, mass 11,980,000 kg.
Oneiros: Sig 80 m, base speed 268 m/s, base agility 7.9 s, mass 13,160,000 kg.

It's absolutely crazy that the Guardian is as about as fast as the Oneiros (yeah yeah unfit ships), while being more agile, having a smaller sig and much less mass. The Oneiros deserves significant advantages in mass, speed, agility and sig over the Guardian. Swapping their stats over would be a start.
Meditril
Hoplite Brigade
Ushra'Khan
#48 - 2011-09-21 14:45:05 UTC
Dramiel is fine as it is, it is by far not so overpowered as the Amarr Navy Slicer. If you want to kill a Dramiel then you should not hunt it, it is faster anyway. Just wait for the Dramiel to come to you and then take it down...

http://www.minmatar-militia.org/edk308/index.php?a=kill_detail&kll_id=202951
Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#49 - 2011-09-21 15:49:48 UTC
Quote:
Dramiel is fine as it is

Umm, no, it's not. It's far too good all-round.

Quote:
overpowered as the Amarr Navy Slicer

... All credibility lost.

Quote:
Just wait for the Dramiel to come to you and then take it down...

So basically rely on the pilot being an idiot.
Aloe Cloveris
The Greater Goon
#50 - 2011-09-23 06:30:08 UTC
asdfdghkhjfl;lk';;

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
~ * ~ * ~ * ~ * ~ * ~ Repost this if ~ * ~ * ~ * ~ * ~ *~ * ~
~ * ~* ~ * you are a strong black woman * ~ * ~ * ~ * ~
~ who don't need no developer feedback in her life ~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#51 - 2011-09-23 06:38:13 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
The Basilisk and the Scimitar are well balanced. The Scimitar, being faster and having a smaller sig, is favoured in gangs where mobility is important; the fatter slower Basilisk is better in slower gangs where repping power and cap transfer is more useful.

This should be the model for the Guardian and the Oneiros. But it isn't, not only because fast armour gangs is a bit of a contradiction, but because the Guardian has too small a sig and is too fast. Currently:

Guardian: Sig 70 m, base speed 261 m/s, base agility 7.2 s, mass 11,980,000 kg.
Oneiros: Sig 80 m, base speed 268 m/s, base agility 7.9 s, mass 13,160,000 kg.

It's absolutely crazy that the Guardian is as about as fast as the Oneiros (yeah yeah unfit ships), while being more agile, having a smaller sig and much less mass. The Oneiros deserves significant advantages in mass, speed, agility and sig over the Guardian. Swapping their stats over would be a start.



I'd say the real issue for the Scimitar and the Oneiros is the Tracking Link Bonus.


The bonus is too small to make a big difference on actual ship stats compared to just a straight up tracking link.

It gets a 50% tracking bonus. THat sounds nice, but it takes a tracking bonus from 15% to 22%.

Woopity doo. It's NOT enough compared to a massive bonus to energy transfer.


The Tracking link needs to get at least double bonus to the efficiency - or totally swap out the tracking link efficiency bonus of the Scimitar and the Oneiros to something competitive with Energy Transfer and is as functional consistently, and then you won't be worried about why the Guardian and Oneiros match up awkwardly.

Where I am.
Gypsio III
State War Academy
Caldari State
#52 - 2011-09-23 09:02:10 UTC
Bloodpetal wrote:

The Tracking link needs to get at least double bonus to the efficiency - or totally swap out the tracking link efficiency bonus of the Scimitar and the Oneiros to something competitive with Energy Transfer and is as functional consistently, and then you won't be worried about why the Guardian and Oneiros match up awkwardly.



While the tracking link bonus is certainly on the unimpressive side, the fact is that the Scimitar is popular and well balanced and does not need to be boosted, while the Oneiros is... less popular. This demonstrates that the problems lie in the hulls, not in the tracking link bonuses.
MeBiatch
GRR GOONS
#53 - 2011-09-23 23:50:10 UTC  |  Edited by: MeBiatch
imo rr is too much appart of fleets now adays and the main reason is large reps on medium ships... i think there should be a bs version of logi ships that use large versions of RR... and the cruiser versions should only use medium... simply inrease the pg requirements for large remote reps so that only bs's can fit them... WHY?

well if you want to put out that much RR you should have the penilties of being in a bs sized ship... max speed agility sig radius...

but if we do this there should a boost made to medium rr... make the ships more agile and faster and give them better terciary bonus like for the oneiros for remote eccm...

do this and you will start seeing people dust off thier bs's and go on roams and you will see more specialized crusier fleets out there... its a win win...

upon reflection i came to the conclusion that rr should be sig radius based... wtf!??!?!?Pirate

no seriously now... think about if you are in a capital sized ship and shoot capital sized weapons as a interceptor you will not hit it ... the same should be for rr...

a capital rr should be designed to cover the area of a capital ship which can be several kilometers long... the dispersion ratio would have to be massive to be effective on a ship that level... so its only logical that if i were to target the same interceptor that the amount of rr the ship would receive would be minimal aswell... (as most of it would fall on empty space)

so this would lead to 4 classes of rr ships:

currently we have two logistics cruisers and carriers...

i want to see a bs version and frig version...

this would make fleets much more diverse and provide more "healer" type roles in eve...

There are no stupid Questions... just stupid people... CCP Goliath wrote:

Ugh ti-di pooping makes me sad.
Needa3
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#54 - 2011-09-24 22:47:06 UTC
stupid idea ccp ... again

the logis are overpowered already as they are but then yeah, we really need bigger blobs do we?

dramiel is just fine, shouldn't have nerfed the webs to start with and than you wouldn't have had this issue

as old so many times before

get rid of that stupid CSM that only serves their own goals and not that of the players
play the game yourself so you know what needs a fix


still waiting for snipers that cant be probed in 8 seconds
Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#55 - 2011-09-25 11:08:45 UTC
Quote:
dramiel is just fine, shouldn't have nerfed the webs to start with and than you wouldn't have had this issue


In your dreamworld maybe.
U MAD, Dramiel pilot?
Needa3
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#56 - 2011-09-25 11:18:02 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Spitfire
Inappropriate comment removed. Spitfire
Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#57 - 2011-09-25 11:58:00 UTC
Oh wow you really do need some serious anger management.

Notice how nanoships are still perfectly viable, just not godmode. The exception to all this being a well flown Dramiel, which not only has insane speed but solid tank, cap and DPS to back it up.
It won't be nerfed into uselessness, just in line with other frigates.

Now please do cry some more.
Duchess Starbuckington
Doomheim
#58 - 2011-09-27 16:20:16 UTC
Bumpage
Ravcharas
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#59 - 2011-10-04 22:57:57 UTC
Coming up on four months.
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#60 - 2011-10-04 22:59:03 UTC
I wouldnt mind nano ships if there where weapons specifically designed to counter then and they have to be specifically fitted and alterd to sink another ship to do such and not an after thought.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.