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CSM Elections - Pretty much rigged voting?

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Ira Theos
#21 - 2012-01-28 17:58:07 UTC
Prince Kobol wrote:
Ira Theos wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:
WhyTry1 wrote:
I have no faith in the election voting process at all.

A candidate basically has his hundreds of alliance mate votes, and their alts on top. Pretty much seals the candidates seat and we can say is pretty much rigged voting..

People in small corps/alliances even though they may have lots of eve experience, would never get voted because of this.. So thats why i guess a lot of ppl dont stand and ppl dont vote either...

I still think that CCP should be the people to effectively 'interview' candidates from all areas (null, low, empire, pvp, trade) and they choose who they think is the best person to be on the CSM. Thats pretty much the only way to ensure fairness.


No it isn't because all that would happen then is CCP would be accused of picking people who they have person relationships with.



So you would prefer to have it populated with people who have a personal relationship with the Mittani?

(and before anyone asks, I'm not an alt of the OP and don't know him at all.)


Your point is what?

Whether you hate or like The Mittani, the reason he is able to get so many votes is because of his influence in game.

Maybe in a few years if you have done as half as much as he has done then maybe you can get people to vote for you instead.

Also, if we follow your idea then the The Mittani is guaranteed a place on the CSM for life considering he is good friends with many CCP employees, so your idea is even more fail.







My point is that the Goons are over-represented in the CSM and always will be if CSM seats are determined by simple majority voting.

The Mittani's votes are due to his position as head cheese in SomethingAwful.com and has nothing to do with his position in Eve. He has this influence in any game the Goons touch solely by reason of this fact.

The Mittani hasn't "done" anything in Eve but coordinate Ass-Hattery.

and finally, if we follow my suggestion of Republican form of representation in choosing the CSM members, both the Eve community and CCP would benefit due to a more complete voicing of player segments as a result.
Kessiaan
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#22 - 2012-01-28 18:02:14 UTC
WhyTry1 wrote:
I have no faith in the election voting process at all.

A candidate basically has his hundreds of alliance mate votes, and their alts on top. Pretty much seals the candidates seat and we can say is pretty much rigged voting..

People in small corps/alliances even though they may have lots of eve experience, would never get voted because of this.. So thats why i guess a lot of ppl dont stand and ppl dont vote either...

I still think that CCP should be the people to effectively 'interview' candidates from all areas (null, low, empire, pvp, trade) and they choose who they think is the best person to be on the CSM. Thats pretty much the only way to ensure fairness.


And this different from RL political parties how?

KB Link
Killer Gandry
The Concilium Enterprises
#23 - 2012-01-28 18:13:11 UTC
Don't you think that if your statements were true we would see more DRF representatives in the CSM?
Prince Kobol
#24 - 2012-01-28 18:36:19 UTC
Ira Theos wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:
Ira Theos wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:
WhyTry1 wrote:
I have no faith in the election voting process at all.

A candidate basically has his hundreds of alliance mate votes, and their alts on top. Pretty much seals the candidates seat and we can say is pretty much rigged voting..

People in small corps/alliances even though they may have lots of eve experience, would never get voted because of this.. So thats why i guess a lot of ppl dont stand and ppl dont vote either...

I still think that CCP should be the people to effectively 'interview' candidates from all areas (null, low, empire, pvp, trade) and they choose who they think is the best person to be on the CSM. Thats pretty much the only way to ensure fairness.


No it isn't because all that would happen then is CCP would be accused of picking people who they have person relationships with.



So you would prefer to have it populated with people who have a personal relationship with the Mittani?

(and before anyone asks, I'm not an alt of the OP and don't know him at all.)


Your point is what?

Whether you hate or like The Mittani, the reason he is able to get so many votes is because of his influence in game.

Maybe in a few years if you have done as half as much as he has done then maybe you can get people to vote for you instead.

Also, if we follow your idea then the The Mittani is guaranteed a place on the CSM for life considering he is good friends with many CCP employees, so your idea is even more fail.







My point is that the Goons are over-represented in the CSM and always will be if CSM seats are determined by simple majority voting.

The Mittani's votes are due to his position as head cheese in SomethingAwful.com and has nothing to do with his position in Eve. He has this influence in any game the Goons touch solely by reason of this fact.

The Mittani hasn't "done" anything in Eve but coordinate Ass-Hattery.

and finally, if we follow my suggestion of Republican form of representation in choosing the CSM members, both the Eve community and CCP would benefit due to a more complete voicing of player segments as a result.


The Mittani is the head cheese of the Something Awful forums.. OMFG !!!!!!

Jesus I am laughing so hard I nearly pissed myself lol
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#25 - 2012-01-28 18:48:32 UTC
There are approximately 7000 members of GSF. Let's be generous and assume that every single one of these members belongs to a seperate account which can vote

There are approximately 350,000 active accounts which can vote.

"Goons" make up a massive TWO PERCENT of the voting population.


It doesn't matter how much hysterical hurfblurf people spout out about the sneaky evil goons rigging this or controlling that (where do they get the time? ) the plain, incontestable, inconvenient, annoying fact is that they got their guy elected because they got their asses in gear, got motivated, got organised, got their members to actually vote, and as a result they got their result.

All the fancy STV schemes and reserved seats and consituencies and yadda yadda won't count for **** unless the people who are bawwing their little eyes out about MEAN OLE MITTENS cut out the slacktivism and god damb well VOTE.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Akrasjel Lanate
Immemorial Coalescence Administration
Immemorial Coalescence
#26 - 2012-01-28 20:09:41 UTC
WhyTry1 wrote:
I have no faith in the election voting process at all.

A candidate basically has his hundreds of alliance mate votes, and their alts on top. Pretty much seals the candidates seat and we can say is pretty much rigged voting..

People in small corps/alliances even though they may have lots of eve experience, would never get voted because of this.. So thats why i guess a lot of ppl dont stand and ppl dont vote either...

I still think that CCP should be the people to effectively 'interview' candidates from all areas (null, low, empire, pvp, trade) and they choose who they think is the best person to be on the CSM. Thats pretty much the only way to ensure fairness.


True, but the null dudes give **** about that they think they are beter and stuff....

CEO of Lanate Industries

Citizen of Solitude
Ira Theos
#27 - 2012-01-28 20:28:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Ira Theos
Malcanis wrote:
There are approximately 7000 members of GSF. Let's be generous and assume that every single one of these members belongs to a seperate account which can vote

There are approximately 350,000 active accounts which can vote.

"Goons" make up a massive TWO PERCENT of the voting population.


It doesn't matter how much hysterical hurfblurf people spout out about the sneaky evil goons rigging this or controlling that (where do they get the time? ) the plain, incontestable, inconvenient, annoying fact is that they got their guy elected because they got their asses in gear, got motivated, got organised, got their members to actually vote, and as a result they got their result.

All the fancy STV schemes and reserved seats and consituencies and yadda yadda won't count for **** unless the people who are bawwing their little eyes out about MEAN OLE MITTENS cut out the slacktivism and god damb well VOTE.


If the Goons each had an average of just two accounts, then they would make up 4% by your own numbers. I suspect they have more than two accounts each on average. That still doesn't get to the heart of the issue of their voting power because it is more a question of how many votes can be focused on each potential CSM seat. I suspect if the Mittani coordinated his available votes more carefully, he might be able to fill all the CSM seats with Goons. Anyway your numbers are off because not all of the 350,000 number you throw around are actually active in the vote and that is what counts, so the Goons unified block vote has a disproportionate effect. This is enough to give them an "I-Win" button in the CSM every time.

And by the way Malcanis? Why do you look so constipated??
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#28 - 2012-01-28 20:39:40 UTC
Ira Theos wrote:
The Mittani hasn't "done" anything in Eve but coordinate Ass-Hattery.

And you're surprised we love and vote for him?

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?
2bhammered
Cyberpunk 2077
#29 - 2012-01-28 20:42:22 UTC  |  Edited by: 2bhammered
If you find a good candidate I promise to support his or hers campaign with funds and lasers. My only requirement is the candidate can not be a member of an 0.0 alliance, oh and he or she have to support my idea of a ranked based arena/bg system to be put in place into the game so one can have eve alliance tournament stylefighting everyday of the year with your own team!!!

again, if you are it or know who I will pledge funds and lasers to his or hers cause!!
met worst
Doomheim
#30 - 2012-01-28 20:51:10 UTC
Not this subject again Roll
Zirse
Risktech Analytics
#31 - 2012-01-28 21:43:40 UTC
Ira Theos wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
There are approximately 7000 members of GSF. Let's be generous and assume that every single one of these members belongs to a seperate account which can vote

There are approximately 350,000 active accounts which can vote.

"Goons" make up a massive TWO PERCENT of the voting population.


It doesn't matter how much hysterical hurfblurf people spout out about the sneaky evil goons rigging this or controlling that (where do they get the time? ) the plain, incontestable, inconvenient, annoying fact is that they got their guy elected because they got their asses in gear, got motivated, got organised, got their members to actually vote, and as a result they got their result.

All the fancy STV schemes and reserved seats and consituencies and yadda yadda won't count for **** unless the people who are bawwing their little eyes out about MEAN OLE MITTENS cut out the slacktivism and god damb well VOTE.


If the Goons each had an average of just two accounts, then they would make up 4% by your own numbers. I suspect they have more than two accounts each on average. That still doesn't get to the heart of the issue of their voting power because it is more a question of how many votes can be focused on each potential CSM seat. I suspect if the Mittani coordinated his available votes more carefully, he might be able to fill all the CSM seats with Goons. Anyway your numbers are off because not all of the 350,000 number you throw around are actually active in the vote and that is what counts, so the Goons unified block vote has a disproportionate effect. This is enough to give them an "I-Win" button in the CSM every time.

And by the way Malcanis? Why do you look so constipated??


You are aware that anyone can have two accounts or more correct?

I'm fine with people who have multiple accounts voting more than once because a)there's no way to regulate it even if you wanted to and b) people who bring in more revenue for CCP should get a larger say in the CSM.
Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#32 - 2012-01-28 21:46:55 UTC
WhyTry1 wrote:
I have no faith in the election voting process at all.

A candidate basically has his hundreds of alliance mate votes, and their alts on top. Pretty much seals the candidates seat and we can say is pretty much rigged voting.

Except that's not what the phrase "rigged voting" means, at all. That's just an organized voting bloc.

Here's the relevant Wikipedia article: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electoral_fraud

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn
Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#33 - 2012-01-28 21:50:01 UTC
Tippia wrote:
WhyTry1 wrote:
People in small corps/alliances even though they may have lots of eve experience, would never get voted because of this..
No, the reason they rarely get voted in is because they can't capture an audience or a following and try to rely on their small corps/alliances to get them in rather than to run a proper campaign. History has show as much.

As usual Tippia's logic is spot-on.

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn
Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#34 - 2012-01-28 21:54:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Lyris Nairn
Ira Theos wrote:
WhyTry1 wrote:
I have no faith in the election voting process at all.

A candidate basically has his hundreds of alliance mate votes, and their alts on top. Pretty much seals the candidates seat and we can say is pretty much rigged voting..

People in small corps/alliances even though they may have lots of eve experience, would never get voted because of this.. So thats why i guess a lot of ppl dont stand and ppl dont vote either...

I still think that CCP should be the people to effectively 'interview' candidates from all areas (null, low, empire, pvp, trade) and they choose who they think is the best person to be on the CSM. Thats pretty much the only way to ensure fairness.


The problem you describe is the primary downside of "pure" Democracy, that being

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyranny_of_the_majority

This is why truly representative systems tend be more a form of Republicanism

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republicanism



Yes, I agree that CCP should have a stronger hand in vetting and selecting the candidates based upon the theory that the CSM's function is to filter through ideas and opinions to CCP from various player segments of the game. As things are now, the Goons and certain Zero interests are too strongly represented.

I'm surpised that anyone other than the Goons are even in the CSM. If the Mittani coordinated and allocated his troop's votes better, he could capture all the CSM seats.

Something that would benefit the vast majority of the EVE playerbase would be proportional representation and selected transferable votes because in the present system a big chunk of the voting share is effectively "wasted" by people voting for this or that candidate, each one of a dozen or more who receive fewer than the minimum needed to gain a seat. With transferable votes there would be a lot more representation of the non-Goon interest on the CSM, because people could then delineate their votes to go to Candidate Y in the event that Candidate X is not elected, and so on. Right now one of the big advantages that an organized voting bloc like the Clusterfuck Coalition has over the rest of the game is that all of their votes go to specified candidates which will almost surely win positions whereas the rest of the game's population is left to blindly pick one of the other horses in the race and is left with no recourse or representation once that horse loses.

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn
Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#35 - 2012-01-28 21:57:50 UTC
WhyTry1 wrote:
Im sorry but learn about democracy! The only thing democratic is the freedom to vote. Apart from that you votes ARE GUARANTEED! its basically FIXED!! its your own damn alliance mates voting for you, therefore its FIXED!!

Why don't you organize a political party then? With respect, if this was a real concern of yours then you've had nearly an entire year since the elections for CSM6 and during that time I don't see you having put together a voting bloc to challenge The Mittani or the other candidates whose seat of power rests upon organized voting. If you want to fight them, then do so; otherwise, you are just making a lot of discontented noise on an alt.

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn
Messoroz
AQUILA INC
Verge of Collapse
#36 - 2012-01-28 22:02:13 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Eternum Praetorian wrote:
This is actually not the issue at all. The rigged part of the voting process comes from multiple account holders and accounts purchased with Plex, combined with ISK faucets that only Null Sec alliances have access to.

What ISK faucets would that be, seeing as how all faucets are a available in all space?


I think highsec bears are also ignoring their incursion faucet.
Lyris Nairn
Perkone
Caldari State
#37 - 2012-01-28 22:02:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Lyris Nairn
Ira Theos wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:
Ira Theos wrote:
Prince Kobol wrote:
WhyTry1 wrote:
I have no faith in the election voting process at all.

A candidate basically has his hundreds of alliance mate votes, and their alts on top. Pretty much seals the candidates seat and we can say is pretty much rigged voting..

People in small corps/alliances even though they may have lots of eve experience, would never get voted because of this.. So thats why i guess a lot of ppl dont stand and ppl dont vote either...

I still think that CCP should be the people to effectively 'interview' candidates from all areas (null, low, empire, pvp, trade) and they choose who they think is the best person to be on the CSM. Thats pretty much the only way to ensure fairness.


No it isn't because all that would happen then is CCP would be accused of picking people who they have person relationships with.



So you would prefer to have it populated with people who have a personal relationship with the Mittani?

(and before anyone asks, I'm not an alt of the OP and don't know him at all.)


Your point is what?

Whether you hate or like The Mittani, the reason he is able to get so many votes is because of his influence in game.

Maybe in a few years if you have done as half as much as he has done then maybe you can get people to vote for you instead.

Also, if we follow your idea then the The Mittani is guaranteed a place on the CSM for life considering he is good friends with many CCP employees, so your idea is even more fail.







My point is that the Goons are over-represented in the CSM and always will be if CSM seats are determined by simple majority voting.

The Mittani's votes are due to his position as head cheese in SomethingAwful.com and has nothing to do with his position in Eve. He has this influence in any game the Goons touch solely by reason of this fact.

The Mittani hasn't "done" anything in Eve but coordinate Ass-Hattery.

and finally, if we follow my suggestion of Republican form of representation in choosing the CSM members, both the Eve community and CCP would benefit due to a more complete voicing of player segments as a result.

The Mittani, AKA Numismancer on Something Awful, is not the "head cheese". He is not even a moderator. He is just a random guy with a registered username who happens to play EVE. By contrast, Weaselior and VIle Rat, a couple of important people in GoonWaffe, are moderators on Something Awful. By your logic shouldn't they be the CEO of GoonWaffe, or the guy giving huge speeches at the State of the Goonion, or the ones that everyone hates on the CSM?

Sky Captain of Your Heart

Reddit: lyris_nairn Skype: lyris.nairn Twitter: @lyris_nairn
Feligast
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#38 - 2012-01-28 22:05:50 UTC
Lyris Nairn wrote:
The Mittani, AKA Numismancer on Something Awful, is not the "head cheese". He is not even a moderator. He is just a random guy with a registered username who happens to play EVE. By contrast, Weaselior and VIle Rat, a couple of important people in GoonWaffe, are moderators on Something Awful. By your logic shouldn't they be the CEO of GoonWaffe, or the guy giving huge speeches at the State of the Goonion, or the ones that everyone hates on the CSM?


Vile Rat is on the CSM, and I think at least most people hate him.
Mara Tessidar
Perkone
Caldari State
#39 - 2012-01-28 22:06:14 UTC
The Mittani is the leader of Something Awful? News to me. I didn't even think the place had a leader.

Whatever. I, for one, welcome our posting overlord.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#40 - 2012-01-28 22:07:26 UTC
Ira Theos wrote:
My point is that the Goons are over-represented in the CSM and always will be if CSM seats are determined by simple majority voting.
Good thing that CSM seats are not determined by simple majority voting, then.