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There will never be a CSM representative for highsec..

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MatrixSkye Mk2
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#81 - 2012-01-30 00:35:15 UTC  |  Edited by: MatrixSkye Mk2
Tres Farmer wrote:
Because people who play in high sec and who aren't alts of any other group aren't as passionate about the game.
And being passionate about the game is needed to become a CSM representative.. it's additional stress and work besides playing this game, which even after you did it to the best of your knowledge and ability in 90% of the cases earns you mockery and verbal abuse. For people who are just playing casually this is not feasible.
So the only ones, who rally for CSM and take the downsides are those who get something out of it for their group.

It's funny though.. a very large group, composed of casual players has no voice because of the nature of it's members. Cool


Wait. When did it become fashionable to be emotionally invested or "passionate" about this game?

Aren't carebears shunned for taking this game too seriously?

Did someone forget to send out the memo?

Or can this just be the usual carebear-hating hypocritical mantra spewed by the "i-nevar-take-eve-seriously" elitists?

Successfully doinitwrong™ since 2006.
Rellik B00n
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#82 - 2012-01-30 01:01:03 UTC
Zirse wrote:
Rellik B00n wrote:
be excellent to each other.



and yet i cant help feeling that a simple mechanic as you log in, eg:

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

WE ARE CONSIDERING BALANCING INCURSIONS, DO YOU AGREE THAT WE SHOULD?

lots of info regarding reasons for and against goes here.

[ ] YES

[ ] NO

[ ] DONT CARE

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

would work a million times better than some showcase free-holidayathon like the current situation.

Before you **** on my bonfire about this you should know I dont care either way im all EvEd out atm, just throwing stuff out there while im still around Smile



Direct democracy is a terrible idea, even in EVE, for anything beyond the most general consensus of direction.


WE ARE CONSIDERING GIVING EVERYONE 1 BILLION ISK EVERY FRIDAY, DO YOU THINK WE SHOULD?

[X] YES

[ ] NO

[X] LOL


lol - are you running for csm, an alt of someone running for csm, a current csm alt, or just plain trolling? I guess they are all the same thing.

the context of your counter argument makes no sense and only serves to radically move the context of the original idea, as was no doubt your intention.

i did not suggest direct democracy, i suggested a consultation excercise. Instead of consulting the csm (and their personal/corp/alliance agendas) over these ideas then working with the feedback you are consulting everyone that logs in over a certain period. These people also have agendas and block voting is still possible.

technology allows us to quickly survey the views of an entire playerbase of major issues - ticking a box would certainly beat pew-pewing a statue in jita in terms of press coverage.

an argument to preserve the status quo here is an argument to keep the powerbase the same and that says a lot more about you and your motives than it does about the good or badness of my suggestion.

please do get an answer together - make sure you multiple quote and retort, or maybe take a little bit and quote out of context - you could even just attack the person instead of the argument. Whatever it is, good luck with that.

[Of a request for change ask: Who Benefits?](https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=199765)
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#83 - 2012-01-30 02:16:51 UTC
Rellik B00n wrote:

i did not suggest direct democracy, i suggested a consultation excercise. Instead of consulting the csm (and their personal/corp/alliance agendas) over these ideas then working with the feedback you are consulting everyone that logs in over a certain period. These people also have agendas and block voting is still possible.


Wikipedia wrote:

a form of government in which people vote on policy initiatives directly, as opposed to a representative democracy in which people vote for representatives who then vote on policy initiatives


You suggest a system by which people vote directly(Take a Poll) on policy initiatives(Proposed changes) to replace a system in which people vote for representatives(Vote for the CSM) who then vote on policy initiatives(CCP Consults the CSM).

That you cal it "consulting" doesn't change that. In addition, it, as was already said, limits debate to a series of very specific questions with little to no help in interpreting them, and subject to the biases of both the maker of the survey and the reader of the survey (in the event of short answer questions).

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#84 - 2012-01-30 02:23:56 UTC
Mr Kidd wrote:
Malcanis wrote:


I'm not at all convinced that there's less money in hi-sec hands than there is in moon goo.


I can't answer specifically to the point. However, I would say that while there might be more isk (which I doubt) overall in HS, how many hands hold that isk? This goes back to cohesion and the lack of it in HS. Individually, even in small groups hs cannot compete financially with individuals in null.



I'm reasonably sure that the richest individuals in the game mostly operate in hi-sec.

I've also yet to see a convincing argument (that means ones with evidence and causal chains that don't involve lizard-people beaming mind-rays from their moonbase) that in game wealth affects CSM elections.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#85 - 2012-01-30 02:32:53 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Mr Kidd wrote:
Malcanis wrote:


I'm not at all convinced that there's less money in hi-sec hands than there is in moon goo.


I can't answer specifically to the point. However, I would say that while there might be more isk (which I doubt) overall in HS, how many hands hold that isk? This goes back to cohesion and the lack of it in HS. Individually, even in small groups hs cannot compete financially with individuals in null.



I'm reasonably sure that the richest individuals in the game mostly operate in hi-sec.

I've also yet to see a convincing argument (that means ones with evidence and causal chains that don't involve lizard-people beaming mind-rays from their moonbase) that in game wealth affects CSM elections.


I MAEK ALTS to RIG ERECTION.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Zirse
Risktech Analytics
#86 - 2012-01-30 04:19:17 UTC
Rellik B00n wrote:
Zirse wrote:
Rellik B00n wrote:
be excellent to each other.



and yet i cant help feeling that a simple mechanic as you log in, eg:

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

WE ARE CONSIDERING BALANCING INCURSIONS, DO YOU AGREE THAT WE SHOULD?

lots of info regarding reasons for and against goes here.

[ ] YES

[ ] NO

[ ] DONT CARE

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

would work a million times better than some showcase free-holidayathon like the current situation.

Before you **** on my bonfire about this you should know I dont care either way im all EvEd out atm, just throwing stuff out there while im still around Smile



Direct democracy is a terrible idea, even in EVE, for anything beyond the most general consensus of direction.


WE ARE CONSIDERING GIVING EVERYONE 1 BILLION ISK EVERY FRIDAY, DO YOU THINK WE SHOULD?

[X] YES

[ ] NO

[X] LOL


lol - are you running for csm, an alt of someone running for csm, a current csm alt, or just plain trolling? I guess they are all the same thing.

the context of your counter argument makes no sense and only serves to radically move the context of the original idea, as was no doubt your intention.

i did not suggest direct democracy, i suggested a consultation excercise. Instead of consulting the csm (and their personal/corp/alliance agendas) over these ideas then working with the feedback you are consulting everyone that logs in over a certain period. These people also have agendas and block voting is still possible.

technology allows us to quickly survey the views of an entire playerbase of major issues - ticking a box would certainly beat pew-pewing a statue in jita in terms of press coverage.

an argument to preserve the status quo here is an argument to keep the powerbase the same and that says a lot more about you and your motives than it does about the good or badness of my suggestion.

please do get an answer together - make sure you multiple quote and retort, or maybe take a little bit and quote out of context - you could even just attack the person instead of the argument. Whatever it is, good luck with that.



lolz

Here's what you're failing to understand, spelled out for you.

The CSM is less about droning on about "The free people of EVE Online want blah blah blah and feel this is right because blah blah bah.." That **** sounds great, but in reality it doesn't accomplish anything. See the first five years of the CSM.

What the CSM is or should be more about is poking prodding and nudging CCP and hoping that their collective experience can stop any train wrecks in game design or at least mitigate the damage.

People are quick to scream :tinfoil: but I have yet to see any evidence of this and in fact there's quite a bit that suggests the contrary.
Karthwritte
Trouble Seekers Incorporated
#87 - 2012-01-30 04:22:12 UTC
Carebears are not famous. Like me. Hate being a carebear
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#88 - 2012-01-30 04:23:27 UTC
Karthwritte wrote:
Carebears are not famous. Like me. Hate being a carebear


But you have your own Official CCP Emoticon Bear

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Ai Shun
#89 - 2012-01-30 04:28:50 UTC
Rellik B00n wrote:
i did not suggest direct democracy, i suggested a consultation excercise. Instead of consulting the csm (and their personal/corp/alliance agendas) over these ideas then working with the feedback you are consulting everyone that logs in over a certain period. These people also have agendas and block voting is still possible.


You would never get a balanced answer that way. Take your hypothetical question and what the likely outcomes are:

(a) The players running Incursions would most likely NOT want them to be balanced.
(b) The players planning on running Incursions would most likely NOT want them to be balanced.
(c) The players who don't give a **** about Incursions would likely troll the responses.
(d) The players that hate Incursions will likely vote YES to have them balanced.
(e) Etc.

So what does that tell you? Where is the reasoned discussions the current CSM has with players on ideas (See the forum) and the concepts then taken to CCP with reasoning, etc?

I don't know man, it just seems like a good way to troll CCP.
Jhagiti Tyran
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#90 - 2012-01-30 06:15:48 UTC
Didn't the carebears have a CSM once? Iirc she threw spoons at the CCP devs and then broke the NDA by giving another developer info she learned during the CSM meetings.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#91 - 2012-01-30 06:22:09 UTC
Jhagiti Tyran wrote:
Didn't the carebears have a CSM once? Iirc she threw spoons at the CCP devs and then broke the NDA by giving another developer info she learned during the CSM meetings.


Wait, she broke NDA by spilling to a Dev who wasn't in the loop? Wow, the Bears can't do anything well, can they?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Rellik B00n
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#92 - 2012-01-30 14:05:58 UTC
Ai Shun wrote:
Rellik B00n wrote:
i did not suggest direct democracy, i suggested a consultation excercise. Instead of consulting the csm (and their personal/corp/alliance agendas) over these ideas then working with the feedback you are consulting everyone that logs in over a certain period. These people also have agendas and block voting is still possible.


You would never get a balanced answer that way. Take your hypothetical question and what the likely outcomes are:

(a) The players running Incursions would most likely NOT want them to be balanced.
(b) The players planning on running Incursions would most likely NOT want them to be balanced.
(c) The players who don't give a **** about Incursions would likely troll the responses.
(d) The players that hate Incursions will likely vote YES to have them balanced.
(e) Etc.

So what does that tell you? Where is the reasoned discussions the current CSM has with players on ideas (See the forum) and the concepts then taken to CCP with reasoning, etc?

I don't know man, it just seems like a good way to troll CCP.


explain to me how this differs from now? the csm are as prone to all the things you listed as the other 30 thousand players. Are you suggesting that csm members are somehow of a higher intelligence level than average? Are you suggesting they are less invested in things that affect them personally? I think you need to reconsider.

Zirse wrote:


lolz

Here's what you're failing to understand, spelled out for you.

The CSM is less about droning on about "The free people of EVE Online want blah blah blah and feel this is right because blah blah bah.." That **** sounds great, but in reality it doesn't accomplish anything. See the first five years of the CSM.

What the CSM is or should be more about is poking prodding and nudging CCP and hoping that their collective experience can stop any train wrecks in game design or at least mitigate the damage.

People are quick to scream :tinfoil: but I have yet to see any evidence of this and in fact there's quite a bit that suggests the contrary.


not failing to understand in the slightest - unless you are talking about yourself?

let me spell something out for you while we are doing spelling:
if this ^^ is what the csm is meant to do then it plainly doesnt work and is only working now because CCP lost so much money - not because of anything the csm did.
[Of a request for change ask: Who Benefits?](https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&find=unread&t=199765)
Doris Dents
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#93 - 2012-01-30 14:22:38 UTC
Highsec candidates tend to be terrible. Either they want to fundamentally change EvE and remove the risk or they meddle in 0.0 blurfing about stuff they've never experienced first hand be it supercaps or jump bridges.
Countess Markievicz
Eyememyne
#94 - 2012-01-30 14:41:33 UTC
I would quite happily vote for a candidate who represented and promoted the overall well being of Eve. What I will not do is vote for any candidate simply wants tp promote the interest of his/her power block.
Addicted to Eve
Zytani
The Motley Crew Reborn
#95 - 2012-01-30 14:52:16 UTC
i think there should be 4 CSM categories in which players can run for

1. High Sec CSM

2. Low Sec CSM

3. Null Sec CSM

4. Wormspace CSM


this way everyone in eve can have a voice to represent them.
Xorv
Questionable Acquisitions
#96 - 2012-01-30 20:59:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Xorv
Zytani wrote:
i think there should be 4 CSM categories in which players can run for

1. High Sec CSM

2. Low Sec CSM

3. Null Sec CSM

4. Wormspace CSM


this way everyone in eve can have a voice to represent them.


You really believe that? And how exactly do you propose to determine who can run for each? How would voting differ from the way it does now? Also do you really believe each and every one of those categories represents a shared unified interest?
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#97 - 2012-01-30 21:05:47 UTC
Yeah like for example I have 1800 bookmarks in various wh-systems, but do most of my fights in null and keep all of my loot in high. So if I ran for CSM on a platform of 'ban npc corps', which category would I be under?

And this is with one account. What if I had several based in different secstatus?
Ai Shun
#98 - 2012-01-30 21:07:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Ai Shun
Rellik B00n wrote:
explain to me how this differs from now? the csm are as prone to all the things you listed as the other 30 thousand players. Are you suggesting that csm members are somehow of a higher intelligence level than average? Are you suggesting they are less invested in things that affect them personally? I think you need to reconsider.


The CSM are there because they campaigned to be there. They have the drive, the ambition and the desire to sit in front of the player base, gathering feedback and talking to CCP.

However, if you put the same power in the hands of 350,000 people who do not care enough to even VOTE in an election that directly affects their game, you can expect a large number of trolling responses. The results will be so skewed it will be useless.

More-so than you would from a group of people who give up their free time to work on the CSM.

Surely you've been on the internet more than 5 minutes and have seen what the average players' behavior is like? Even on forums? And you expect them to vote honestly and properly?

I feel like "u mad bro" would be an appropriate rejoinder to that; although not quite the way it is normally meant.
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#99 - 2012-01-30 21:16:36 UTC
Jhagiti Tyran wrote:
Didn't the carebears have a CSM once? Iirc she threw spoons at the CCP devs and then broke the NDA by giving another developer info she learned during the CSM meetings.

Ironically Ankh is with Polaris Syndicate these days basing themselves out of NPC 0.0
shooting at a csm delegate
feels good man
rodyas
Tie Fighters Inc
#100 - 2012-01-30 21:29:02 UTC
I say we just hang back and watch the **** hit the fans for the elections, then watch CCP come in to clean the mess up.

That is if the worse people suspect will happen, but we will see the candidates sheet soon and till then maybe we should relax or so.

Signature removed for inappropriate language - CCP Eterne