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Highsec Concerns about CSM- no representation? Highsec's fault? Help from CCP?
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Grumpy Owly
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#61 - 2012-01-27 10:44:25 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Grumpy Owly wrote:
Tippia, think about it .....

Even if they are not their mains, the "actual" characters are still High sec toons.
The point is: the characters are irrelevant. It's the player that matters. If the player can stomach not living in highsec, then he can stomach not living in highsec, no matter how many of his characters do.

When people pull out that number to suggest that somehow highsec players are a majority, they're just dead wrong: it's far more likely that a minority of players are highsec players, and most of them can (and do) live just fine outside of highsec. Do they take advantage of highsec? Sure, but that's just because they'd be stupid not to — not that they can't live without it (which is what the “highsec is majority”-nutters want to make everyone believe).

…and to expand on and provide more data points to the issue Malc illustrates above:

I live and operate out of highsec. (Nearly) every time I dock, I do it in a highsec station, because I take the time to go “back home” before logging off. But I still only operate out of highsec — I frequently go gallivanting around lowsec and shallow nullsec. Am I a highsec player? Given the argumentation I present on these boards, would my highsec living make me a good representative of the highsec players if I were on the CSM?


Would you think it wise to open a thread discussing the reasons for regional bias and discrimination and how relevant they are, or do you think I would be mostly wasting my time with it? It might make an interesting discussion on the merits/downfalls why certain animosities exist and if/why they are valid.

Bounty Hunting - Soon (™): Retribution (Winter 2012)

It's just criminal - Smuggling
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#62 - 2012-01-27 10:50:15 UTC
Grumpy Owly wrote:
Would you think it wise to open a thread discussing the reasons for regional bias and discrimination and how relevant they are, or do you think I would be mostly wasting my time with it?

I think you'd have to make a proper case for the existence of such a bias first. If it doesn't exist, there is no reason for it.

So far, people just claim that it exists without any real backing, or by relying on completely counter-factual reasons and sheer tinfoilhattery that is trivial to disprove (but less than trivial to make said tinfoil-hat-bearers accept or understand).
Rel'k Bloodlor
Federation Front Line Report
Federation Front Line
#63 - 2012-01-27 10:56:27 UTC
Not only is the hi-sec is under represented notion false, hi-sec has no real exclusive content that is broken.

Unless some one has proof of ether of the above points?

I wanted to paint my space ship red, but I couldn't find enough goats. 
Kelduum Revaan
The Ebon Hawk
#64 - 2012-01-27 11:00:26 UTC
Caldari Citizen 786478786 wrote:
For what it's worth, Eve University CEO, Kelduum Revaan has already thrown his fedora into the upcoming election... he is a reasonable and respectable human being.


I may have to get that printed on a tshirt.
Kelduum Revaan
The Ebon Hawk
#65 - 2012-01-27 11:07:51 UTC
On the actual subject here, the problem is that the stats produced so far are incomplete, and don't represent the people, as has been mentioned.

However, the game does track visits to systems on a per-character basis as well as number of logins, and with some other data mining it would (at least in theory) be possible for CCP to identify a decent proportion of alt accounts and tie them to the people, and determine how many actual players spend most of their time in Nullsec vs Losec and Hisec.
Evenus Battuta
#66 - 2012-01-27 11:24:09 UTC
Why do so many morons here think they are to decide what eve is about?

A company makes a game about making profit, not about your heyIamhardcore&toughinvideogame.

Since we pay 66% of subs, if there is anyone who should shut up, it is you.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#67 - 2012-01-27 11:26:41 UTC
Evenus Battuta wrote:
Since we pay 66% of subs, if there is anyone who should shut up, it is you.
Who's “we”?
Jafit McJafitson
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#68 - 2012-01-27 11:31:37 UTC
Evenus Battuta wrote:
Why do so many morons here think they are to decide what eve is about?

A company makes a game about making profit, not about your heyIamhardcore&toughinvideogame.

Since we pay 66% of subs, if there is anyone who should shut up, it is you.


Maybe if you cast 66% of the votes or even fielded 66% of the CSM candidates, you'd have some CSM representation. But such is the nature of highsec that you don't have to be organized or pay attention or care about anything but yourself to play, wheras nullsec does have to be organized, so highsec doesn't produce candidates and it doesn't vote.

In this thread: Highsec pubbies demonstrate that they don't understand Eve and they don't understand the basics of how democracy works.
Rel'k Bloodlor
Federation Front Line Report
Federation Front Line
#69 - 2012-01-27 11:31:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Rel'k Bloodlor
Tippia wrote:
Evenus Battuta wrote:
Since we pay 66% of subs, if there is anyone who should shut up, it is you.
Who's “we”?


He might be right proud to be Hi-sec types buy lots of plexs so as to not have to really work there way in to navy ravens or hulks.
But that doesn't mean that there IS any problem with any broken hi-sec exclusive content.
And that is still the biggest hole in there QQ


See other parts of the game have what they call problems. Things with there exclusive content that don't work.
Ask a null guy how the sove grinding is working out? Or if some caps are just to often the best choice for most situations.
Ask a low-sec guy about the problems with a geared for hi-sec GCC system.
Ask a FW pilot how the feel about plexing and FW missions.

I wanted to paint my space ship red, but I couldn't find enough goats. 
Mr Kidd
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#70 - 2012-01-27 11:32:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Mr Kidd
The problem with CSM is the same problem with any political system. The available representatives are mouth pieces for those with the resources. The resources are in null. And so, that's where the representation comes from and whom they represent. The CSM is rife with the pitfalls of any RL political system. One need only look at one's own country for an analog.

While Tippia's conclusions are logical, they might not be correct. One can't look at population and representation in order to make conclusions here. Certainly the ghettos of the world outnumber the posh suburban neighborhoods of the wealthy. Yet, representation is clearly in the favor of the few with resources.

I would caution CCP for allowing RL dynamics to overly influence a game which many play to escape their real lives. If there aren't any routes for the escapist to pursue then the escapist will look elsewhere.

Don't ban me, bro!
Akrasjel Lanate
Immemorial Coalescence Administration
Immemorial Coalescence
#71 - 2012-01-27 11:32:58 UTC
Evenus Battuta wrote:
Why do so many morons here think they are to decide what eve is about?

A company makes a game about making profit, not about your heyIamhardcore&toughinvideogame.

Since we pay 66% of subs, if there is anyone who should shut up, it is you.


CCP listening to "real" propositions won't lose, it can benefit the company and the players.

CEO of Lanate Industries

Citizen of Solitude
Patient 2428190
DEGRREE'Fo'FREE Internet Business School
#72 - 2012-01-27 11:34:56 UTC
I could go for another repeat of Ankhtehblahblah

That drama was extra entertaining.
Evenus Battuta
#73 - 2012-01-27 11:52:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Evenus Battuta
Tippia wrote:
Evenus Battuta wrote:
Since we pay 66% of subs, if there is anyone who should shut up, it is you.
Who's “we”?


players have other ways to enjoy ourselves rahter than ruining other's day, or simply don't like being pawns of some arrogant jerks who take a game too seriously.

That's right, we won't be organized. That's why CCP can never know how many subs they already lost.

I for one play the game simply because I like flying spaceship, not because it's some cruel mercyless universe full of sociopath. The space jerk part of the game is something I can take, not the highlight I like.
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#74 - 2012-01-27 11:54:46 UTC
To throw out more numbers, one of my RL friends who plays capships has an entire highsec capital building pos sec up, with a complete 10 man alt corp, just to fund his 0.0 pvp habit.

So thats 10 characters who never leave highsec supporting 1 character who roams all of eve killing people.

Is he a highsec or nullsec player?

Or even a lowsec player, since his play style is mostly piratical in style, even tho he mainly does it in null.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#75 - 2012-01-27 11:58:14 UTC
Evenus Battuta wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Evenus Battuta wrote:
Since we pay 66% of subs, if there is anyone who should shut up, it is you.
Who's “we”?


players have other ways to enjoy ourselves rahter than ruining other's day, or simply don't like being pawns of some arrogant jerks who take a game too seriously.

That's right, we won't be organized. That's why CCP can never know how many subs they already lost.

I for one play the game simply because I like flying spaceship, not because it's some cruel mercyless universe full of sociopath. The space jerk part of the game is something I can take, not the highlight I like.


To quote one of the CCP devs - 'Eve isn't supposed to look like a cold, dark, merciless universe. It is supposed to BE a cold dark merciless universe.'

In other words, thats the point. If you have a problem with that, perhaps you should look for another space game. TOR isn't bad, the pvp kinda sucks, but it doesn't sound like that will bother you, and you even get to fly a spaceship around.

You don't have to be a sociopath to play, or even enjoy Eve, but if you are not, you better enjoy having to take them on.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#76 - 2012-01-27 12:06:47 UTC
Evenus Battuta wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Evenus Battuta wrote:
Since we pay 66% of subs, if there is anyone who should shut up, it is you.
Who's “we”?

players have other ways to enjoy ourselves rahter than ruining other's day, or simply don't like being pawns of some arrogant jerks who take a game too seriously.

That's right, we won't be organized. That's why CCP can never know how many subs they already lost.

I for one play the game simply because I like flying spaceship, not because it's some cruel mercyless universe full of sociopath. The space jerk part of the game is something I can take, not the highlight I like.

Oookay… but who's this “we” who pay 66% of the subs?
Ganagati
Perkone
Caldari State
#77 - 2012-01-27 12:07:44 UTC
Tallian Saotome wrote:


To quote one of the CCP devs - 'Eve isn't supposed to look like a cold, dark, merciless universe. It is supposed to BE a cold dark merciless universe.'


Supposedly CCP wrangler said that... or rather, said:

"EVE is not designed to look like a cold, dark, unforgiving world. It's designed to BE a cold, dark, unforgiving world"

but I've been looking and can't find the original quote to save my life, just other people saying he said it.

.
Cathy Drall
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#78 - 2012-01-27 12:07:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Cathy Drall
CSM democracy is just badly broken.

If 200,000 carebears vote for 20 carebear PvE candidates, they get 10,000 votes each
If 100,000 nulsec players vote for 4 nulsec PvP candidates, those get 25,000 votes each.

How is this outcome and CSM representative for the player population?
Let people vote for ideas, not candidates, to see what the playerbase really wants.

Or do pre-elections like the americans do and have only 2 candidates or parties.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#79 - 2012-01-27 12:14:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Cathy Drall wrote:
CSM democracy is just badly broken.

If 200,000 carebears vote for 20 carebear PvE candidates, they get 10,000 votes each
If 100,000 nulsec players vote for 4 nulsec PvP candidates, those get 25,000 votes each.

How is this outcome and CSM representative for the player population?
Because those 20 carebears have 20 different and probably disparate opinions and platforms that they want to promote, each with only ~10k supporters.

The 4 nullsec candidates have 4 different and probably disparate opinions and platforms that they want to promote, each with ~25k supporters.

Any one of those nullsec platforms have more people supporting it than any one of the highsec platforms. The outcome accurately shows how much support each platform has and thus represents those ideas that the largest number of people can get behind.

If those 20 highsec platforms aren't all that different, they should probably try to consolidate themselves into a single platform (or, say, as few as 4 or 5) to more accurately represent the different views that people hold.
Rel'k Bloodlor
Federation Front Line Report
Federation Front Line
#80 - 2012-01-27 12:17:28 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Evenus Battuta wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Evenus Battuta wrote:
Since we pay 66% of subs, if there is anyone who should shut up, it is you.
Who's “we”?

players have other ways to enjoy ourselves rahter than ruining other's day, or simply don't like being pawns of some arrogant jerks who take a game too seriously.

That's right, we won't be organized. That's why CCP can never know how many subs they already lost.

I for one play the game simply because I like flying spaceship, not because it's some cruel mercyless universe full of sociopath. The space jerk part of the game is something I can take, not the highlight I like.

Oookay… but who's this “we” who pay 66% of the subs?



I think hi-sec guy is selling me the plex's that keep my alts going.
Or maybe not, might just be null guy trying to get a replacement carrier for the one he lost ratting.

I wanted to paint my space ship red, but I couldn't find enough goats.