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Fuel Blocks & Production numbers
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Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#21 - 2012-02-15 02:44:12 UTC
Mongo Travler wrote:
I would think most POS owners (myself included) keep large stores of excess fuel so that we can ride out the peaks in the market and buy at the bottom. However, I have been modifying my sell orders to keep up with current fuel prices. This way I can pad my profits for when I do have to go buy fuel again.


I'd go so far as to call you a bit of a newbie POS owner if you didn't keep at least 2-3 months of fuel on-hand to ride out peaks in the market. Or interdiction efforts, or bored null-sec pilot jihads, or the semi-annual HAG, or the normal insanity in the market or a bump in the supply chain. Or mostly, because when you have 4-8 months of fuel on-hand, you don't have to give a rat's tookus about scrounging for fuel any particular month if you don't feel like dealing with it.

Right now, I'm stocking up heavily on the PI fuel components which are nearing annual lows. Especially things like Robotics below 54k ISK/u, Mechanical Parts below 7500, Oxygen below 250.

http://www.evemarketeer.com/item/group_summary/1336
Jacabon Mere
Capital Storm.
#22 - 2012-02-15 03:13:18 UTC
I think the OP is missing that fuel block production produces 40 blocks per run and that it is cheaper to run pos's now than it was about 6 months ago by about 20%.

Capital Storm is recruiting Aussies for Lowsec pvp and money making. Join "Capital Storm Pub" channel ingame. www.capitalstorm.net
Xearal
Dead's Prostitutes
The Initiative.
#23 - 2012-02-15 04:25:55 UTC
Obvious Troll/Market scare attempt is obvious :p

Does railgun ammunition come in Hollow Point?
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#24 - 2012-02-15 20:41:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Bugsy VanHalen
C1unk wrote:
Slavemaster wrote:
.. The numbers don't add up

With a PE 40, max skills you can produce 19200 per day: That will fuel a large POS for 20 days.

The Problem here is that the Production is to slow to meet demands. The Mats are there, but it impossible
to get out the numbers that "EvE" needs.

There are not that many who can produce 10 Jobs with 10 BPO`s 24/7. And the few who can will only produce
192 000, a drop in the ocean.

It cost a lot of isk, just to start the show. And not every noob in town can do.

My point is that CCP must have done some bad calculations here, and the only reason why the prices has not
gone skyhigh is weeks of production before the Patch, or that the sellers don't get it.

To be dramatic we can within a month get Fuel blocks cost 3X of what it is today, because of lack
of productions slots for the Indi players. And within days later a Patch that will cut down form 3 min, to 1.5 Min.

Feel free for some Input, comments but for me this seems impossible. In others words Fuel blocks are so
underrated in price, that its just a matter of days before it hits the roof.

I repeat its not the lack of Mats but the lack of players, (number of jobs) able to produce them


Looking at it, and the figures, it is somewhat a bit confusing on the "new pos fueling" methods. As I understand it, it takes 20 fuel blocks per hour for just a medium POS?. Correct me if I am wrong, but the figures required for just 1 fuel block is the same as what it use to require to run a POS for just 1 hour. So if you need 20 fuel blocks per hour which I have been informed it actually is, then I can not see how this makes things efficient and certainly is not cost saving in anyway shape or form. For a starters the 3x cost you stated is vastly low, it is more like 20x more expensive now to fuel a POS because of this ridiculous requirement of 20 fuel blocks per hour. Again you might correct me on that 20 fuel blocks per hour, because when I sore it, I was shocked at why CCP would add such a thing, when it was working fine as it was.

Unless you have an army of PI accounts, and I mean an army, CCP have just made pos management which was already a pain in the butthole a lot more inefficient and considerably more expensive. Who makes these decisions exactly?, it is another terrible decision, hikes up the prices throughout considerably, and just adds in a huge amount of work that the original method of fuel pos requirement did not.

WHY CCP, why do you keep changing things that already worked.

C1unk




underlined your mistake. Each run produces 40 blocks not 1. so the cost of running medium and small towers is actually lower. the mats that used to run a large POS for 1 hour now make 40 blocks(with some minor changes) still running a large tower for one hour. but those same mats producing 40 blocks will now run a small tower for 4 hours. no more 1 robotics per hour regardless of POS size. 1 robotics per batch. 1 robotics every 4 hours for a small tower with the new fuel block system.
The reason I picked robotics is because as a POS operator myself, robotics was the most logistics intensive mat as it is the only P3 product, and the only PI product needed for POS fuel that can not be produced on a single planet without importing mats from another planet. It also used to be the most expensive component needed.

I mine my own ice but do not mind buying it when needed. I personally think the new fuel block system is great. Might not be cheaper for all situations but for myself the logistics is much easier. Make the fuel blocks, sell BPC's made from the fuel block BPO's when they are not in use. And it is much easier to keep track of how much fuel reserves I have. Basically 28800 blocks per month for a large tower. I got a full fuel bay plus 30,000 block in storage I am good for about 2 months. I know way ahead of time when I need to make more blocks.

Some players look at this as just another set in the logistics chain. I look at it as simplified logistics. Get all your mats to one central manufacturing point. Mass produces several months worth of blocks over a few days. then simply distribute the blocks to POSes as needed. No more worries about being short a single commodity like liquid ozone and not realizing it until you get a low fuel notification from the tower. 30,000 fuel blocks runs a large tower for a month. how much simpler can it get. There is only added logistics if you make all needed fuel yourself from scratch. Which will save you enough isk to more than compensate for the effort it requires.

Just my 0.02 isk.
Storz Bickel
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#25 - 2012-02-15 22:54:34 UTC
I was making my living manufacturing & selling Robotics in hisec prior to the fuel block rollout, my main and two alts on the same account. Then I switched over to fuel blocks prior to the 1/24 rollout, for the mere reason that I wanted to be part of a new market. I still have less than 7MM skillpoints so I can't compete with some of you mfg behemoths and won't be leaving my starter corp until I have around 10MM or so, but the point is I have been studying the market for PI resources and fuel blocks quite closely for the last several months.

I'm getting really disgusted with the low volume of blocks traded (in hisec anyway) and can't afford to lower my ask price due to the cost of the ice components. So now I'm stuck with inventory that won't move without me undercutting myself. I skilled up in ice mining to help defray the overhead, but god ice mining is a very quick way to bore myself right out of this game.

So yesterday I switched back to Robotics. 3 toons processing 432 units per day in hisec. That's a pittance for most of you, but for lil' ol' me that is the fastest way I've made ISK for the time spent, leaving me free to do fun stuff like missioning, story arcs, etc. PI was supposed to be passive income, but it's not passive if I have to mine ice all the time just to make it work financially.

Seems to make more sense being in the middle of the production chain rather than at the end of it for the time being. Maybe the excess inventory of blocks is due to the delayed rollout, but I'm sick of waiting and need some short-term ISK.
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#26 - 2012-02-15 23:50:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Tau Cabalander
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Tau Cabalander wrote:
For what it is worth, I only need to refuel two large control towers.

Last evening I manufactured two months of fuel (699 * 2 runs) with five BPO (PE 60) and a Component Array. It took about 8 hours.

I think this is well within the realm of a large POS owner's capabilities.

Cool. No really. But that's about all you will do ingame...and how much did YOU pay for all that Liquid O ????
Just wait till next month Twisted

And if you did not pay....why don't you HONESTLY tell us just how long it took to get ALL that Ice needed????? That's WAY more than a few days even of SOLID ice mining. In fact it's a WOW - OMG amount of mining.

All I commented on was the manufacturing time with a single character and 5 assembly lines, since inadequate production was the topic of the thread, and having 10 or 11 slots was deemed an unreasonable expectation.

But since you brought up the other topics...

I don't think anybody sane should attempt to maintain a POS through hisec ice harvesting. It just isn't very efficient. I've tried it before and quickly realized this truth.

If the price of POS fuel were to rise ten fold, in the short term my net worth would significantly increase based on existing stockpiles, and in the long term be meaningless as the costs would be passed on.

If the price of POS fuel is a great burden to an individual or corporation, then it seems reasonable that they shouldn't have that POS.
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#27 - 2012-02-16 11:40:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Krixtal Icefluxor
Bugsy VanHalen wrote:
[quote=C1unk]

underlined your mistake. Each run produces 40 blocks not 1. so the cost of running medium and small towers is actually lower. the mats that used to run a large POS for 1 hour now make 40 blocks(with some minor changes) still running a large tower for one hour. but those same mats producing 40 blocks will now run a small tower for 4 hours. no more 1 robotics per hour regardless of POS size. 1 robotics per batch. 1 robotics every 4 hours for a small tower with the new fuel block system.
The reason I picked robotics is because as a POS operator myself, robotics was the most logistics intensive mat as it is the only P3 product, and the only PI product needed for POS fuel that can not be produced on a single planet without importing mats from another planet. It also used to be the most expensive component needed.

I mine my own ice but do not mind buying it when needed. I personally think the new fuel block system is great. Might not be cheaper for all situations but for myself the logistics is much easier. Make the fuel blocks, sell BPC's made from the fuel block BPO's when they are not in use. And it is much easier to keep track of how much fuel reserves I have. Basically 28800 blocks per month for a large tower. I got a full fuel bay plus 30,000 block in storage I am good for about 2 months. I know way ahead of time when I need to make more blocks.

Some players look at this as just another set in the logistics chain. I look at it as simplified logistics. Get all your mats to one central manufacturing point. Mass produces several months worth of blocks over a few days. then simply distribute the blocks to POSes as needed. No more worries about being short a single commodity like liquid ozone and not realizing it until you get a low fuel notification from the tower. 30,000 fuel blocks runs a large tower for a month. how much simpler can it get. There is only added logistics if you make all needed fuel yourself from scratch. Which will save you enough isk to more than compensate for the effort it requires.

Just my 0.02 isk.


I think what they are getting at...maybe......is that fuel can no longer be 'conserved' by shutting off POS mods to 'save' CPU and Power. No go.

All Towers are on Full Use Capacity as long as they are online, even if all is off.

That means TONS more fuel consumption required than ever needed before, and it is indeed going to be in short supply.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#28 - 2012-02-17 01:01:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Tauranon
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:

I think what they are getting at...maybe......is that fuel can no longer be 'conserved' by shutting off POS mods to 'save' CPU and Power. No go.

All Towers are on Full Use Capacity as long as they are online, even if all is off.

That means TONS more fuel consumption required than ever needed before, and it is indeed going to be in short supply.


Doubt it.

Pos fuel is expensive, so people tend to max out the economic stuff fitted to their pos (economic stuff usually chews cpu). Some people might run half grid, but 25% of pos's running 25% less of 1 of 8 fuels is not a giant difference - especially when you refine cpu and grid fuel from the same ices anyway.

I wouldn't be suprised to find that highsec produces excess isotopes, and not enough water/ozone, and that shortfall is made up by people with access to the special null ices, and there is already a profit vs mining regular ice - ie the mechanism and players are already in place.
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#29 - 2012-02-17 13:36:02 UTC
Ice products group:
http://www.evemarketeer.com/item/group_summary/476

Heavy water:
http://www.evemarketeer.com/item/info/16272

That "bump" has been and gone and prices are back below 100 ISK/u. Cost difference for a large tower between 100 ISK/u and 25 ISK/u? Only about 8.5M ISK/30d.

Liquid Ozone:
http://www.evemarketeer.com/item/info/16273

Also peaked and falling back down. Jita price is 388 (peak was 450). Effect on a large tower? A large tower consumes 108,000 units of LOz per 30 days. For every 50 ISK/u change in the price, it changes the 30-day cost by 5.4M ISK.

The 30-day prices as of this morning (if you build your own fuel blocks from the underlying components):

Amarr: 88 / 175 / 347 - 12063 ISK/u
Caldari: 91 / 180 / 358 - 12440 ISK/u
Gallente: 98 / 194 / 386 - 13388 ISK/u
Minmatar: 102 / 202 / 403 - 13998 ISK/u

All of which are mostly down since last October, and about what prices were last summer.
Captian Blingtooth
Home of Old
#30 - 2012-02-28 23:15:58 UTC
I appreciate all the information and walls of text. I've been doing PI and ice mining, producing fuel blocks lately.

I have a question, with regular ice we get a surplus of isotopes and hvy water refining the ice and making blocks. The isotopes go to feed jump drives, but what about the water? Doesn't this mean that the price of hvy water will fall to almost nothing? Do the higher grade ices from lowsec/null balance it out?


Thanks in advance.
Bugsy VanHalen
Society of lost Souls
#31 - 2012-02-29 01:35:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Bugsy VanHalen
Captian Blingtooth wrote:
I appreciate all the information and walls of text. I've been doing PI and ice mining, producing fuel blocks lately.

I have a question, with regular ice we get a surplus of isotopes and hvy water refining the ice and making blocks. The isotopes go to feed jump drives, but what about the water? Doesn't this mean that the price of hvy water will fall to almost nothing? Do the higher grade ices from lowsec/null balance it out?


Thanks in advance.


Yeah only major HW consumer is the roqual for ice compression. and since they can not enter high sec they generally use the excess HW available in null.
I would love to see the ratio of LO to HW switched to balance the high sec ice. In high sec Liquid Ozone is needed for both POS fuel and jump frieghters. Heavy Water has no use I know of in high sec other than POS fuel. No demand for the surplus produced means a useless product that is worthless to sell.

there are null sec ice's specific to each ice product as well as higher yield versions of high sec ice. So in null you can mine the specific ice you need to gett 1000 units per block of the specific ice product you need.

Dark glitter is the highest value ice as it is the one that yields 1000 units of Liquid Ozone per block.
Styth spiting
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#32 - 2012-02-29 05:13:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Styth spiting
I spent most of the weekend figuring out a few setups for fuel production using different PI setups, planet choices, etc. I wont post it here since its a lot of info but here the basics.

Even with a sub par setup using 5 planets (no plasma) and only command center upgrades 3 a player would be able to generate somewhere between 1 - 4.75 fuel block runs per hour. With my new setup I have worked this out to a possible 5 to 9 fuel block runs per hour. This would cover all pi materials.

Ignoring the ice requirements and assuming the low end output from a well setup planet making 5 fuel block runs per hour it comes to 120 fuel block runs per day, or 4800 blocks of fuel, good enough for 5 days of fuel (at 40 blocks per hour).

So in 30 days you could generate the PI mats for 144000 fuel blocks or 155 days (5 months). This means 1 player could supply fuel for 5 large towers for 1 year each (assuming fuel use of 40 per hour).

So no team of PI alts, you can get buy on just one.


Edit. I found some of the ice info I made:

44 cycles per hour mining Thick blue ice

per cycle -------- Cycle -- hour --- 10 hours
Heavy water ----- 75 -- 3,300 ----- 33,000
Liquid ozone ------40 -- 1,760 ---- 17,600
oxygen isotopes 350 --15,400 - 154,000

Fuel block output
per cycle --- Cycle -- hour --- 10 hours
heavy -- 150: -- 0 ------ 22 -- 220
ozone -- 150: -- 0 ---- 11.73 -- 102
isotopes 400: -- 0 ---- 38.5 -- 385

10 hours mining would generate a maximum 16 days of fuel.
Buying the following material:
24,750 heavy water (2,475,000isk)
42,450 liquid ozone (21,225,000isk)


10 hours mining would generate a minimum 4.25 days of fuel
Can sell the following:
heavy water: (1,770,000)
Isotopes: (67,920,000)
GreenSeed
#33 - 2012-02-29 05:49:06 UTC
i think the OP needs to red the BPO carefully.

i also think that the LO hole will get to a critical point in the next 2 - 3 months , but besides price going 3x what it is now, nothing else will happen. i mean its not like ppl will go mine the low sec varian with high volumes of LO. Lol
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#34 - 2012-02-29 11:49:06 UTC
Tauranon wrote:
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:


That means TONS more fuel consumption required than ever needed before, and it is indeed going to be in short supply.


Doubt it.

I wouldn't be suprised to find that highsec produces excess isotopes, and not enough water/ozone, and that shortfall is made up by people with access to the special null ices, and there is already a profit vs mining regular ice - ie the mechanism and players are already in place.



And guess who makes the money and will SPIKE THE PRICE of Liquid O ?? The NullBears.

Nice trolling though.................

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#35 - 2012-02-29 11:50:47 UTC
Captian Blingtooth wrote:
I appreciate all the information and walls of text. I've been doing PI and ice mining, producing fuel blocks lately.

I have a question, with regular ice we get a surplus of isotopes and hvy water refining the ice and making blocks. The isotopes go to feed jump drives, but what about the water? Doesn't this mean that the price of hvy water will fall to almost nothing? Do the higher grade ices from lowsec/null balance it out?


Thanks in advance.


Welp, I have to spend ISK to buy my Liquid O Shortfall. It comes back though from the sales of the excess Isotope, so for now that part is a win. Not sure for how long though.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
Krixtal Icefluxor
INLAND EMPIRE Galactic
#36 - 2012-02-29 11:52:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Krixtal Icefluxor
GreenSeed wrote:
i think the OP needs to red the BPO carefully.

i also think that the LO hole will get to a critical point in the next 2 - 3 months , but besides price going 3x what it is now, nothing else will happen. i mean its not like ppl will go mine the low sec varian with high volumes of LO. Lol


Exactly. Which presents the NullBears with yet another heap of ISK on a 'risk-free in Sov' Platter.

"He has mounted his hind-legs, and blown crass vapidities through the bowel of his neck."  - Ambrose Bierce on Oscar Wilde's Lecture in San Francisco 1882
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