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Why complain about PvP?
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Lyron-Baktos
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#41 - 2012-01-25 17:25:26 UTC
another thing to keep in mind, the two biggest stories revolving around EVE are not pew pew PVP related. The Mirial story is what got me interested in the game, all the different ways you can play the game. not just pew pew pvp

http://www.cracked.com/blog/the-7-biggest-****-moves-in-history-online-gaming_p2/

http://eve.klaki.net/heist/
http://eve.klaki.net/heist/page-1.jpg
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#42 - 2012-01-25 17:30:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Ocih wrote:
If you feel the duty to cherry pick CCPs words,

"or perform increasingly profitable missions for NPC (non player controlled, run by the EVE system) agents"

Not my words, from the CCP link you provided.
…and guess who the mercenaries, traders, miners, spies are going to attack — you know, like they do in the promotional material?
MeestaPenni wrote:
The Player Guide was written by clueless dolts.
True enough. It doesn't really change the fact that even it highlights the PvP nature of the game.
Lyron-Baktos wrote:
another thing to keep in mind, the two biggest stories revolving around EVE are not pew pew PVP related. The Mirial story is what got me interested in the game, all the different ways you can play the game. not just pew pew pvp
…and which highlights that PvP in EVE is not just limited to combat, but rather permeates everything.
Valei Khurelem
#43 - 2012-01-25 17:34:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Valei Khurelem
Quote:
Eve is a Darwinian game at heart - adapt (evolve) or die (quit) and most anything goes. I think that's why it still exists - unlike most MMOs launched 9 years ago.


Star Wars Galaxies was a fantastic game and was killed by corporate incompetence, a game I never played but heard plenty about was killed in the same way called Planetside, that was an FPS that I would have ended up playing if it weren't for the same company being responsible for the killing of a game I enjoyed so much.

"don't get us wrong, we don't want to screw new players, on the contrary. The core problem here is that tech 1 frigates and cruisers should be appealing enough to be viable platforms in both PvE and PvP."   - CCP Ytterbium
Ocih
Space Mermaids
#44 - 2012-01-25 17:34:50 UTC
And lets be serious, EVE has a problem, it isn't an image problem though. Its a lack of image problem.

Go to any public MMO forum, SW-TOR will have 30 threads a minute.
EVE will have 30 a month. Nobody is complaining about EVE outside GD. Or praising it or even talking about it. Nobody cares.
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#45 - 2012-01-25 17:36:52 UTC
MeestaPenni wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Not to mention the first page of the FAQ, the player guide,


The following text is selected from The Player Guide;

Quote:
EVE caters to many different play styles, ranging from the hard core combat commander to the patient miner, and there are corporations that have very different goals; most require all types of players to function properly,so no matter what type of player you are, there is a place for you in EVE, even if you decide to carve it out yourself.

The high security areas are a safe place to start, until you are ready to venture into the more aggressive areas of the game.

However, the level at which each player decides to participate is a matter of personal choice. The game leaves ample room for continual progress and variety in all its solo playing aspects.


I provided the bolding. If a person is interested in playing Eve Online and reads this first.....tell me honestly what you think their first impression may be?

If it's incorrect, CCP needs to have it edited to fit what the forum warriors insist is the reality.



I think we should change that line....

Quote:
The high security areas are a safer place to start, where Concord quickly punishes illegal aggression. However, once you are ready to venture into the more aggressive areas of the game, the higher risks often come with higher rewards!!
Valei Khurelem
#46 - 2012-01-25 17:37:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Valei Khurelem
Quote:
EVE will have 30 a month. Nobody is complaining about EVE outside GD. Or praising it or even talking about it. Nobody cares.


The reason no one talks about EVE much outside the forums is because beyond the PvP with massive fleets it's boring, lets be honest as well, even the massive PvP fleets are going to revolve around just focusing firing on the right targets and making sure you have that electronic warfare module switched on the right person.

A lot of people don't like the idea of doing that which is why EVE's subscriber base is so small compared to everything else, especially when being useful in the alliances requires a week - month's worth of doing nothing.

Quote:
the higher risks often come with higher rewards if you join a huge alliance and hunt NPCs for them or through being their mining slaves!!


fixed that for you.

"don't get us wrong, we don't want to screw new players, on the contrary. The core problem here is that tech 1 frigates and cruisers should be appealing enough to be viable platforms in both PvE and PvP."   - CCP Ytterbium
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#47 - 2012-01-25 17:38:30 UTC
There is some mad clutching of straws in this thread. The level of pvp in eve is so legondary that everyone in every other MMO knows about it, hell even the BBC knows how brutal eve is. The only way to avoid seeing all the warnings of the pvp is to bury your head in the sand.
Zyress
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#48 - 2012-01-25 17:44:15 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Ocih wrote:
Again, lobby CCP because they are the ones who say it isn't a PvP game. It is sold as a sandbox with PvP freedom.
A.K.A a PvP game where everything it it being some form of PvP, feeding a PvP market that is fed by a (PvP) war economy.


Or as they said a Sandbox, a whiteboard, a clean slate, a blank canvas, you can do what you want and yes you have the freedom to do PvP if you choose to do so, or it is thrust upon you.
Roime
Mea Culpa.
Shadow Cartel
#49 - 2012-01-25 17:45:24 UTC
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
Jafit McJafitson wrote:
The game has a tutorial that gives you a mining laser and a railgun and tells you to go shoot rocks and red crosses. It teaches you nothing else. It's been that way for 8 years, so are you really surprised that there are people who aren't aware that this is a pvp game?

I've been saying this for quite a while. The tutorials are PvE and mission-based; is it any great wonder that there are thousands of players wandering around highsec running missions and not knowing how much content there is that they're missing?


The very first tutorials these days actually teach things like:

- webbing
- pointing
- RR
- joining player corps
- losing ships

... and the tutorial chain even pods the noob.

Having alts in a number of starter NPC corps, I find the problem to be the mentality dominating those chat rooms. Older mission-runners tell new players to avoid lowsec, to wait for XXXmil SP until "starting PVP", this or this skill/module is "PVP" tactics and don't train it, etc. This will eventually stick in the noob heads as the truth, they pass it on, and the vicious cycle keeps on cycling.

There are huge differences between the NPC corps, but still the 5+ year L4 mission runners dominate them. I didn't listen to them about the dangers of lowsec and tried to encourage others to just go there, but it was always drowned in the "you will die they will kill you camps pirates gankers you will die" choir.

I did listen to them about starting PVP, held it off until of ripe age, and regret it very much.





.
Ocih
Space Mermaids
#50 - 2012-01-25 17:54:47 UTC
Roime wrote:
FloppieTheBanjoClown wrote:
Jafit McJafitson wrote:
The game has a tutorial that gives you a mining laser and a railgun and tells you to go shoot rocks and red crosses. It teaches you nothing else. It's been that way for 8 years, so are you really surprised that there are people who aren't aware that this is a pvp game?

I've been saying this for quite a while. The tutorials are PvE and mission-based; is it any great wonder that there are thousands of players wandering around highsec running missions and not knowing how much content there is that they're missing?


The very first tutorials these days actually teach things like:

- webbing
- pointing
- RR
- joining player corps
- losing ships

... and the tutorial chain even pods the noob.

Having alts in a number of starter NPC corps, I find the problem to be the mentality dominating those chat rooms. Older mission-runners tell new players to avoid lowsec, to wait for XXXmil SP until "starting PVP", this or this skill/module is "PVP" tactics and don't train it, etc. This will eventually stick in the noob heads as the truth, they pass it on, and the vicious cycle keeps on cycling.

There are huge differences between the NPC corps, but still the 5+ year L4 mission runners dominate them. I didn't listen to them about the dangers of lowsec and tried to encourage others to just go there, but it was always drowned in the "you will die they will kill you camps pirates gankers you will die" choir.

I did listen to them about starting PVP, held it off until of ripe age, and regret it very much.







You reminded me of my noob days and no amount of alts can bring them back but the thing I remember is the PvP when I was a noob. My first loss was an empty bestower and I didn't emorage, I didn't care. I remember being chased through low and null in my daredevil and it didn't even occur to me I was "PVP'ing". I was just doing stuff. Even back then I remember spending 70% of my time in a station waiting for local to empty so I could go out and pop a few rats. I aligned and dashed back to the station when people came in local. I did all the things people say to do. I got nothing for my trouble. Meta 2 junk.

Return full insurance,
Ditch sec, all Null.

Ditch Concord and make Navies defend thier system. If Jita is the heart of the Caldari Empire, have Caldari fleets fight people who are bad for business. Someone wants to jump a titan fleet in to Jita, the Caldari Navy can handle just about any player fleet out there. Including PL. That is Sandbox.

CCP are what you might call.. risk averse though.
Valei Khurelem
#51 - 2012-01-25 17:59:02 UTC
If you have all the space and I mean all of it, turned into 0.0, we have to have destroyable stations NPC, why is this? If you don't then the heavily entrenched 0.0 alliances would automatically win with all the tech 2 ships they have stashed away since most of them will be much more organised and will likely have a gank fest before the low sec and high sec dwellers know what's going on.

If you make it so stations can get destroyed you at least give people an equal chance to fight back and make them think twice about attacking.

"don't get us wrong, we don't want to screw new players, on the contrary. The core problem here is that tech 1 frigates and cruisers should be appealing enough to be viable platforms in both PvE and PvP."   - CCP Ytterbium
Mr John22ta
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#52 - 2012-01-25 18:02:57 UTC
Ocih wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Ocih wrote:
Checked your link.
Try reading it as well.

Just because people are too illiterate to read or to stupid to understand what they read doesn't change the fact that CCP markets and presents the game as a near-100% PvP envronment.


"In EVE you are free to choose your own destiny. You start out as a character from one of four races that inhabit the EVE universe but apart from slightly different starting skills you are free to take your character in any direction you want. You are not restricted by predefined character classes or professions. You can trade to make a living, conduct mining operations, market your fighting skills as a mercenary, camp the spacelanes for profit as a pirate, conduct espionage and infiltration, focus on research and manufacturing, or perform increasingly profitable missions for NPC (non player controlled, run by the EVE system) agents. What you choose to do day by day is up to you. You can play alone, form a corporation (equivalent of clan or guild) with a close group of friends or seek entrance to any of the large player run corporations and alliances already established. The EVE Unviverse and its 5000 unique solar systems are yours to explore and conquer. "

Doesn't sound like PvP to me.


Ugh

notsureifserious.jpg
Grumpy Owly
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#53 - 2012-01-25 18:06:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Grumpy Owly
I actually agree with the OPs consideration that EvE is a PvP game.

I also dislike the extreme view that anyone who simply wishes to apply "cotton wool" mechanics in an attempt to deny unrealistic complete immunities is not a measured responce for New Eden. It would simply spoil the "sandbox" which one of EvE's greatest qualities.

I don't agree however that any kind of role or discreditment should be cast in generalising sweeping statements due to a minority opinion, nor should people impose the aspect of how people should choose to play the game as a result. This is just over opinionated narrow mindedness, not objective reasoning.

Unfortunatley some criminal aspects of the PvP community use these cheap tactics to both try and intimidate and mindlessly encourage as ongoing valid reasons to make their life as easy and inconsequential as possible, especially in the climate of broken player policing systems.

The bitterness in my view from some individuals is not largely due to how many of the mechnics in the game are either ineffectual as a responce to certain playstyles or can be abused and manipulated to equally avoid confrontation for their actions and leaves a climate where the criminal is really equally immune for his/her activities to the consequences of using certain tactics.

The main culprit being the suicide ganking of soft targets in high sec. For effectiveness these are always ambush situations in an attempt to out position the soft industrial in a way that the instigators of these attacks always profit (despite their own Concord losses), at least if they are effective. And in such a way creates an imbalnce both in overall assests loss to the industrial pinata. So much that the acclaimed criminals are operating in this profession to use it to fund other things with realtive impunity. Similarly the destruction has more far reaching consequences to the industrial player as it takes more time and investment to recover from the loss from which the criminals profited.

Ganking however I recognise as a valid stratergy and certainly has its place as a war tactic etc. so I have no ambitions to simply have it removed from the game.

Also the argument that PvP fuels the economy from "suicide ganking" is another opinionated and missguided view. Firstly as I don't beleive it is that prevelant as there is far more PvP activities occuring that just that actiity, and is much more used as a fail argument to the occasional extreme "tear" mails we see that are passion driven to the point of problematic. The majority of industrial activities largley goes unimpeded seems to be the measured view.

However in principle attacks to the industrial base can have consequences to the economy that may be detrimental to prices and supply. Also you undermine the industrial ability which would otherwise help to encourage more competitive options as there would be more focus on the war machine than taking the time to rebuild and replace industrial losses. Especially since the EvE economy is driven around a free market. There is no special empowerment afforded to anyone who wishes to trade.

So the trader made that choice (I hear you cry) and I agree with you, there is an element of risk that does need to continue with the activity. My intentions however unlike some innappropriate posts is I'm not trying to prevent anyone from criminal actions, I simply want to readdress the risk balance a little and allow some empowerment back to the player to respond to soft target attacks.

My personal beleif is that the player policing systems (mainly the idea of bounty systems and of transferable kill rights) need to be improved to make then a considered deterant or at least some kind of apparent consideration for being involved in criminal acts. At least to make them effective for purpose and not currently leave them in the abusable state as is currently where the criminal can easily benefit from them as a result. The small loses in security that do occur with this can be managed are simply laughable as any form of reasonable deterant to criminal acts.

And in repairing or making a bounty system viable in game which has been absent for eons, will if anything also increase the amount of PvP and fun within the game imho.

As such here is a link to a useful discussion: Bounty Hunting - Lets get is sorted

Bounty Hunting - Soon (™): Retribution (Winter 2012)

It's just criminal - Smuggling
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#54 - 2012-01-25 18:13:41 UTC
Grumpy Owly wrote:
TL;DR

Bounty Hunting - Lets get it sorted





Everyone agrees Bounty hunting needs to be fixed and have asked for it be be fixed for years. However there is an option open to traders right now. Dont be a soft targetStraight
Lexmana
#55 - 2012-01-25 18:22:37 UTC
Ocih wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Ocih wrote:
Show me where CCP said EVE was a PvP game.

What is EVE Online?


Checked your link.
PvP - Text not found
Player versus Player - Text not found

http://www.eveonline.com/features/
I checked there too. Never saw mention of PvP only or PvP at all for that matter.


Since reading is not your strength - try playing the game to get a feel of it. You will see that shooting at other players is possible everywhere, that is even in highsec, although it may come with consequences. Do you think that this is an oversight, a bug or that it might suggest that EVE online is a PvP game by design?
Ocih
Space Mermaids
#56 - 2012-01-25 18:57:11 UTC
Lexmana wrote:
Ocih wrote:
Tippia wrote:
Ocih wrote:
Show me where CCP said EVE was a PvP game.

What is EVE Online?


Checked your link.
PvP - Text not found
Player versus Player - Text not found

http://www.eveonline.com/features/
I checked there too. Never saw mention of PvP only or PvP at all for that matter.


Since reading is not your strength - try playing the game to get a feel of it. You will see that shooting at other players is possible everywhere, that is even in highsec, although it may come with consequences. Do you think that this is an oversight, a bug or that it might suggest that EVE online is a PvP game by design?


Since discussion is not your strength and cherry picking to start fights is, I will requote myself.

Ocih wrote:
Here is the catch to all the people so eager to argue with me.

I agree. EVE is a PvP game. My point is, it doesn't get sold as such. So back to what I said, tell CCP to **** or get off the pot.
Its PvP, it isn't policed, Industry is for alts and be ready to lose a few subs when you own up.


You aren't in EVE, you are on a discussion forum but you seem hard wired to argue with people, even when they agree with you.
Lexmana
#57 - 2012-01-25 19:28:38 UTC
Ocih wrote:
You aren't in EVE, you are on a discussion forum but you seem hard wired to argue with people, even when they agree with you.

My bad. Sorry about that. It is a habit of mine and I really should stop posting from my phone.
Tallianna Avenkarde
Pyre of Gods
#58 - 2012-01-25 20:45:37 UTC
I love eve, even the forums are PVP

And a sudden plunge in the sullen swell. Ten fathoms deep on the road to hell.
Opertone
State War Academy
Caldari State
#59 - 2012-01-25 21:00:38 UTC
Have you seen PvP in eve?

I really see PPPPvP or even SCAM, dock and Hero!


PvP is challenge, many people vs one is lamest shttt. In eve 2 >> 1, unlike shooters and strategies.

Like WOW/Lineage same kind of crap 70 lvl always >> 61. Make piece with your mind, you will always loose with +5 mace to +7 sword.

This post sums up why the 'best' work with DCM inc.

WARP DRIVE makes eve boring

really - add warping align time 300% on gun aggression and eve becomes great again
Fredfredbug4
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#60 - 2012-01-25 21:11:37 UTC
It's quite obvious to anyone who thinks about it for more than 10 seconds that PVP is not limited to sole pew-pew.

Buying and selling stuff on the market involves competing with other players, trying to buy stuff for the lowest possible prices while selling for the highest possible.

When you go mining, you are competing with other players to extract the best ore before everyone else does

When you explore it's the same thing, finding stuff before other people do.

Why can't people ever comprehend this? Why is killing crap considered the only player interaction you have in this game? Is it because it's the most personal form of fighting with people?

Watch_ Fred Fred Frederation_ and stop [u]cryptozoologist[/u]! Fight against the brutal genocide of fictional creatures across New Eden! Is that a metaphor? Probably not, but the fru-fru- people will sure love it!