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Incursion fixes/feedback thread

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The Snowman
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#161 - 2012-01-24 11:02:31 UTC
ffs, there is already another thread that CCP have been directing us too for the past few weeks Evil cant you just read that one instead of spamming the forums with yet more threads
J3ssica Alba
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#162 - 2012-01-24 11:09:04 UTC
DooDoo Gum wrote:

OK, to apply that across the board... how many times would the 'damsel in distress'' get kidnapped by the same bloke who you have killed over and over but just seems to come back....


The damsel doesn't really get kidnapped, she really wants to be there getting banged by Krull, Zor and company. No wonder she's so annoyed when you blow up the pleasure gardens.
This is my signature. There are many others like it, but this one is mine.  Without me, my signature is useless. Without my signature, I am useless
Kwa Zulu
The Graduates
The Initiative.
#163 - 2012-01-24 11:18:30 UTC
Remove Incursions from high sec, period
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#164 - 2012-01-24 11:43:19 UTC
I've never done an incursion but the fact that they have been designed to allow people to far for isk doesn't seem like a good feature. So change the payout system to prevent this.

I don't have a problem with incursion runners and i see them as actually providing a service by clearing Sansha from a system. But some of the incursion fleets are extremely elitist and will not allow new players to join in, so if there is a way for this to be changed, that would be good for the community.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Tallian Saotome
Nuclear Arms Exchange Inc.
#165 - 2012-01-24 11:49:35 UTC
I posted this originally is some other thread, but I thought of an idea.

Eliminate the HQ site, make the mothership just start hotdropping people who are currently running sites. Make it slightly harder to spawn her. When she hotdrops someone, it would either be the sites with the lowest # of people(in theory the lowest level sites currently being run) to push people into the higher paying sites, til they are at a critical mass to actually stay and fight, or the ones with the most people(because the mothership would go for the biggest threat to the incursion first), which would break up fleets til people were ready to band together and fight.

Inappropriate signature removed, CCP Phantom.
Jalmari Huitsikko
Avanto
Hole Control
#166 - 2012-01-24 12:16:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Jalmari Huitsikko
Rek Seven wrote:
I've never done an incursion but the fact that they have been designed to allow people to far for isk doesn't seem like a good feature. So change the payout system to prevent this.

I don't have a problem with incursion runners and i see them as actually providing a service by clearing Sansha from a system. But some of the incursion fleets are extremely elitist and will not allow new players to join in, so if there is a way for this to be changed, that would be good for the community.



I think you're missing whole point that for incursions you must band together with people and train right skills for your character not just hop on random BTL fleet waiting for you. It's not much different than forming a pvp fleet. You really need people with right skills and right ships otherwise it's just random ball which dies horribly.

Other than that - I think current situtation shows what's been problem for long time which is that rewards for finishing incursions are not good enough. VG's could use a tiny weeny bit of tuning down (either rewards or make sites more difficult/variable) and I personally think moving from VG fleet to Assault fleet should be more easy like there should be something like one more level for sites which is meant for fleet size from 11 to 15 people or so. Also lowest level sites are a joke. There probably should be one more level for 3-6 people too or whatsoever. This way it would be easy to get fleet going and keep gathering more people while running the fleet and eventually end up killing mom.
Horus upercal
Excomminicate Traitorus
#167 - 2012-01-24 12:51:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Horus upercal
right this is coming from my point of view here as i do run incursions but also go pvp'ing on a regular basis i run incursions for 2 reasons
1 unlike most here i cannot afford a subscription so for my to play i need to plex my accounts and incursion running is the easiest way to do that not to mention the security status which i use for pvp'ing low sec that comes with it
2 so that when i do go pvp'ing i have the amounts of isk that allow me to do so but the primary reason is so that i can plex the 2 accounts i have were it not for being able to run in incursions i would not be able to play this fantastic game month by month
Horus upercal
Excomminicate Traitorus
#168 - 2012-01-24 12:58:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Horus upercal
now pvp in my opinion is the most fun you can have but to be able to pvp you need to be able to play the game as well as have the ships and equipment to do so and i neither have the time nor patience to make these things so yes i do need isk to be able to afford to do this now most of the time i run in assault's or HQ's but there are times where i need to make isk for a plex rather rapidly as i have had far too much fun pvping and forgotten to run for a few days to get the isk required for a plex whilst still having enough to go pvping.

Now don't get me wrong i do see that some aspects of incursions need re-balancing and imho vanguards need to be made more difficult not have the payout nerf'd as i am sure a lot like me run the incursions to go pvp'ing and plex accounts if you start removing the isk reward people will simply stop doing them this is one of the many reasons i don't go to live events because there is no form of reward for doing them and for those of you that are saying that it should only be lp that i awarded look at how the lp market has crashed already

previously i bought 6% implants and tried to sell them as it stands everyone thinks why should i buy it when i can get it from the lp store.

And further more i would like to see more rewards from assault's and HQ's as i prefer to run them and tbqh i'm surprised ccp didn't think to make the bigger sites bigger payouts considering the time and effort required for those sites

As for the matter of farming incursions i am not overly bothered by this as the longer they are the longer i have time to make the isk for plex's so i can say pvp for most of the time i am on and when needed go get more security status and make the isk for a plex or 2 at the same time
Glomondon
Doomheim
#169 - 2012-01-24 13:23:22 UTC
Kwa Zulu wrote:
Remove Incursions from high sec, period

Remove RAZOR from eve, period
ShipToaster
#170 - 2012-01-24 13:41:30 UTC
Make a situation similar to FW where players can declare for CONCORD or SANSHA. If you are not on CONCORD's side then you get no bounties or LP. You know what the SANSHA sympathisers can do Pirate

Every problem solved.[

Might as well post this here too.

.
ShipToaster
#171 - 2012-01-24 14:00:14 UTC
Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:
Darius III wrote:
Psychopathic crap


You speak for no one who runs Incursions.
And given your past tag lines where you slag CCP ad nauseam, I doubt they will listen to you either.


As you gain more experience in EVE you will realise there are :ccp: and CCP.

CCP are the visionary company who gave us this great game and made it badass, nasty and HTFU. They give it to us straight,

:ccp: are the ones who want it to be space barbie and rewrite the foundation of EVE simply for greed. They dont release the minutes until they have been sanitised.


We cant ******* stand :ccp: but love CCP. Get it now?

.
Haqar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#172 - 2012-01-24 14:12:54 UTC
Darius III wrote:
Mission is successful. Many thank yous to the incursion guys for sharing their ideas and input with us. I forwarded your ideas to CCP. Even more thanks to the pilots who come out and destroy the Motherships time after time. YOU guys applied the pressure to force meaningful dialogue. The players made this happen for their own reasons.//

I do not think that we should be able to form up 40 guys and deny content for thousands of people day after day. I think that no group of players should have that much power over so many people, by exerting such little effort.

Pretty sure no one will believe me on this next point, but here goes anyway. I also wanted to do my part to try to ensure that the nerf/changes to Incursions were not too extreme against Incursions, nor too light. Telling you guys "I did this to help you" will doubtless be received a either a troll or a slap in the face to the uninformed.

I am linking some of the dialogue I had with a few of the luminaries from BTL/TDF. I had 20+ conversations with the folks who organize a large portion of Incurions but the most productive/informative one is linked here.
Hopefully we will see Incursions get rebalanced fairly and in a way that the majority of players agree with-both Incursion runners and the rest of Eve. It was necessary to halt incursions to force meaningful dialogue, and with luck everything will turn out for the best for as many players as possible.

Skunkworks, Kill It With Fire, Brick volunteers, the good people who joined our fleets and Krissada: My sincere thanks, what you have been able to accomplish is almost unprecedented in Eve. I stand in awe of your combined efforts and leadership. See you in fleet on Tuesday?



yea yea blah blah.

I have read it and no you dont know **** yet, atleast not from that convo.
Al i saw is some incusrions vets yapping true eachother and not really saying anyting usefull.
If you seriously think they know what they are on about .... well your a lost cause ...

Dont get me wrong i know them and do respect them, you too prolly since i dont know you but do i have an open mind.
But they are already living in low or null sec like yourself, so maby, just maby yall are out of touch with the persons that enter the game and are playing in high sec.

After doing the tutorials and run missions till you can dream them at lvl 4, people want something else.
So they go mining or run incursions, due to "omg you not shiney" whining that goes on in atleast btl, new channels where formed and stuff was sorted out. Now incursions are not for the 'new noob', let that be said, or they shouldnt be.
Imo incursions are for those that dont want to go low or null sec but like to play something more difficult then the same missions over and over again. Note that after a year of fcing incurions, i did assault, hq and moms they get as repetitive as missions.

So what needs to be changed if anything?
Well people that play a different branche of the game shouldnt be allowed to **** off this side of the game, just because they can.
As far as i know incursions where intended as a means to get groups of people working together and play together as randomly as possible and since they are both in low and highsec its for everyone in their respective area's.
Trying to get carebears to move to low or null, wont happen, trust me, it wont.
Sitewise, its an idea if the time invested to form a fleet in order to run a site is equally rewarded payout wise, that i think has been said more then once in this thread.
So besides all the good idea's beeing metioned here, having low/nullsec player disrupting the carebears way of doing things just because they can/ beeing pised about how carebears farm incursions/ or having different agenda's due to elections, is whole different set of tears then the obvious: "omg i killed your mom, now you cant farm bwahahaha....let me blue the wrecks while im at it to create so much lag you people will die too hahahah"...thats just grieving, sorry it is.
While you have your ass back in low or null wherever you tend to play, how about you farm them there and do the same as the bears do? Problem solved.
Also try to find your backbone again will ya? Going:" Well i really wanted to stop this but umm tdf walked away from the table so now i must go on", is as pathetic as a 3 year old whining on whatever they whine about

So when/if you actually can get serious about this and want to know about things that might need some chaging, find me, untill then you just the next troll as mentioned in that convo, been there done that more then once already, your not that special darius




Just my 2 cents on this matter
Johann Tollefson
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#173 - 2012-01-24 14:34:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Johann Tollefson
1. Balance payouts. Increase Scout and Assault site payout while Vanguards remain the same. For vanguards there is the difficulty in finding a fleet and the question of fleet member quality. Not to mention the time spent traveling to the incursion and the increased risk beyond lvl 4 mission running.

2. Variety. Change the design to add a bit more variety. Regardless how profitable they are, the same cycle repeated gets old eventually.

3. Scout Purpose. Give scout sites a purpose, let them be a milder, introductory version of vanguards and assaults that are for 5 man fleets, not just 5 man crap-poor noob fleets. This could be useful on those days when you just can't seem to get a good fleet up or for smaller corps.

4. Impact. There are a few impacts to be felt when the incursion is ongoing but it's not much of a hindrance to most folks. Especially since it ends after a few hours as it stands right now. Make it so that each of the 4 categories takes a full 24 hours of incursions to finally make an impact on with the mom not showing until day 5.

5. Rewards ISK alone is cool, but LP rewards to buy wicked goodies is even neater. A lofty goal for a shiny ship is a good way to spend those LPs. Why not special categories that are named rigs, or fit once only modules?

6. Scale Find a way to encourage other people in lesser ships, or adjust the payout based on the shininess or lack thereof. Maybe a scaled system that Concord uses depending on difficulty. If you complete the site using all shinies there is a 0.8 modifier, but if you complete it using half shinies and half regular hulls that becomes 1.1 modifier. This would encourage fleet variety and the shinies to mix with new folks who are gearing up for it. If you decide to go all shiny fleet you will still complete them quickly, but the payout would be slightly less than if you used a mix. Feeling badass and extra shiny? Complete it using even less ships and have the payout multiplier go up even more.

7. Factions I'd also to like to see additional factions launching there own incursions. With the success that the Sansha are seeing, you'd think the Guristas or Serpentis would get in on the fun.

My time to play EVE is limited and I like to be able to get into a fleet, make some isk, hang out with some people and mostly enjoy myself. There is still risk involved, anytime you fleet up with some unknowns there is a trust factor that may or may not be working with competent members. One bad Logi and you can lose a few shinies quick.
Carton Mantory
Vindicate and Deliverance
#174 - 2012-01-24 15:16:33 UTC
Incursions should not be just mission running 2.0 without the agents.


Incursions should be be agent based.

Each system in the constellation should have agents with different missions. You should get empire standing + for the sov holder and + for Concord also the enemies of your sov holder should get - standing.

ex. you running incursions in Amarr you get Minimatar standing hit.

Your agent is specific to the region and constellation. The more missions done the more isk/LP you get.

Have LP loot and salvage high and isk low. Agents can give rewards to the whole fleet.

Incursion missions should take 15minutes.


Gates and asteroid and stations should have Sansha swarming pirates. This is not a safe place for the weak at heart. The faster the incursion goes away the constellation will be happy. People might get paid to close incursions.

All constellations should have incursions possible.
Veryez
Hidden Agenda
Deep Space Engineering
#175 - 2012-01-24 15:32:20 UTC
I am not a 'hard core' incursion runner, at best I have run them once a week, but as a social event. I have run all types of sites except the largest headquarters.

1) Scouts are fine, wouldn't change them in any way.

2) Vanguards are too easy, cookie cutter setups allow easy completion. Payouts are a bit high atm, but I wouldn't adjust them because they are getting people to play the game and band together, which should always be a goal of CCP. Instead what I would do is add a variable where depending on the mass brought it, there is possibility of escallation (much like class 5 & 6 wh's). However the escalation must be random and require different tactics to complete.

For example, most setups in vanguards emphasize close range DPS setups, so the spawn could be long range DPS ships, or logictics, or a combo. In another case Close range ECM and Neut ships w/logistic support. In the final case, close range Very Heavy DPS ships with logistic support. In each case, the spawn would be based on a random number, so you never know which spawn you would get (equal probability of each). Finally vary the mass amount that causes the spawn, make it like X +- a random amount, so that setting up the 'ideal fleet' becomes much harder. The goal should be that a balanced fleet is the most efficient, this will slow down the speed of completing the sites and lower the isk/hr but in a fun way.

3) Assaults need better payouts, as people require far more coordination and effort to complete them. Also Nation Consolidation Network sites need to be reworked. They require a different fleet setup than NCS or OCF. People simply don't run them as nobody bothers bringing multiple types of ships. I like the concept and the idea, but in reality you either run only them, or only NCS and OCF. Changing the one gate to allow BC's and below through would help significantly, (i.e. BC's could go through either side). Also as above I would add a random trigger based on mass. But it's not as crucial in Assaults, as these require a balanced fleet (especially the NCN sites), and far more coordination than Vanguard sites. Perhaps the mass should be limited to capital ships like class 5 & 6 wh's, though I'm not sure if these are even allowed through the gates. Bottom line, overpowering assaults like vanguards doesn't happen.

4) Headquarters need much better payouts, as the amount of coordination involved very significant, adding the variable spawns here would be fun, but the incentive to run them would need to be even higher.

Other thoughts:

Incursions in High Sec need to go back to the original incursion influence rate (Low Sec and Null are fine - don't change them). When incursions first came out, reducing influence, even in High Sec was hard. Perhaps I'm not using the correct term, but the difficulity in reducing influence that High Sec originally had - That rate needs to come back as soon as possible.

I would change the influence penalities across the board in all incursions. They should be more severe, as it currently stands their impact is minimal. I would start by doubling them.

With these two changes, I would agree with making the sites stop once the mothership is sighted. However I would ensure there are a minimum of 2 incursion sites in every type of space after each DT, i.e. 2 in High Sec, 2 in Lo Sec, and 2 in Null (obviously there could be more based on the 7 day timer, but 2 would be minimum) . Why? Because it gets people playing the game - which should be the #1 goal of CCP.

Bottom line, incursions are fun. We use them as a way to bring younger members of the corp into fleets (and be useful) and socializing. It has brought us quite a few members and brought our corp together as a whole. We've even used the same people and the skills they've developed to enter and complete wh sites. From what I've seen, incursions are an extremely valuable tool in bringing the corp/alliance closer together as well as helping develope new player skills.
Nita Unik
Doomheim
#176 - 2012-01-24 15:42:27 UTC
Large Collidable Object wrote:
Remove isk rewards entirely, increase LP payout and stop spawning/despawn any sites once the mom has spawned.



+1 for this method as well
Fidelium Mortis
Minor Major Miners LLC
#177 - 2012-01-24 15:46:20 UTC
1. Stop site spawns after the MOM arrives.
2. Reduce the payout slightly.
3. Significantly increase the risk by adding more variation in the spawns, and adding some more sophisticated AI mechanics like a more focused use of EWAR. For instance AI that focuses TDs on a couple turret based ships would make missile ships a bit more viable in fleets. Maybe have a couple support spawns warp in that will require the fleet to pull range on one spawn to mitigate the damage, and burn the other spawn down in time before the back-up catches up (just sitting in the middle would do too much dps for reps to keep up).

ICRS - Intergalactic Certified Rocket Surgeon
Akumetsu
StarHunt
Mordus Angels
#178 - 2012-01-24 16:30:30 UTC
Captain Rivel wrote:
PART 1:

The incursion system launched very successfully and treated EVE players to a game mechanic that was long overdue. Just like any well thought out project, the launch is always just the beginning. The original concept of incursions brings players together to overcome the greatest pve challenge in game. This mechanic was also designed to reward all types of eve players: carebears, pirates and pvpers alike. Just like any good project, there needs to be an active oversight to continue and expand upon the initial launch.

Incursions 2.0 is not a plan to nerf or modify incursions, it's designed to expand incursions into something better. CCP has taken a leap forward by introducing Incursions. To limit its growth by "nerfing/adjusting" it will ruin Incursions forever. This type of action need to be in the foreground, they can't be allowed to sit on the back burner and be forgotten like so many features in EVE have been before.

In order to explain what Incursions 2.0 is, the issues with incursions as they are now need to be identified. Only then can they be fixed.

Incursion Issues -
1. ISK per hour is backwards:
The quickest, smallest fleets are making more then the larger fleets.

2. Motivation to complete larger sites are lacking:
Fewer fleets are actively taking down larger sites, several factors cause this.

3. Larger fleets are harder to maintain:
Larger fleets sometimes have to pause running after every site to replace pilots.

4. Sites were made as a testing sample:
Many kinds of sites to run, but they haven't been modified/replaced.

5. Site mechanics need to have variables:
The same site does the same thing every single time.

6. Site difficulty doesn't scale correctly (fleet comp):
Some fleets find sites challenging while others breeze through them.

7. Incursion completion requirements are broken:
A single fleet can end an incursion regardless of previous involvement.

8. ISK is a primary reward:
Rewarded with income rather then goods in which the player market can place a value on.

9. Loyalty Points are almost guaranteed:
Almost never are high sec incursions not completed. The LP pool isn't at risk.

10. Risk vs Reward isn't balanced:
Compared to the difficulty of incursions over other EVE mechanics, the reward out-weighs the risk.


Incursion fixes -

- Revamp the reward system

Addresses: 1, 2, 8, 9, 10

Solution: ISK is the primary medium in which products in EVE are exchanged. It has a fairly standard exchange rate with products giving it an implied value. When an NPC spawns ISK as a reward, it gives those players the implied value of ISK. This would be fine if the amount of ISK matched the difficulty in which the task was completed. In the case of incursions, this is skewed which causes problems with the value of ISK. The counter to ISK is products, these products can be valued by players and will exchange them for ISK. Thus leaving the value of incursions up to the market. The amount a fleet is rewarded is also skewed in relation to the fleet size and time it takes to complete a site. The reward per hour is backwards and doesn't scale properly. Head Quarter fleets should receive the highest reward per hour, not Vanguards. The way to fix these problems are to change the primary payout to something other then ISK (LP, item drops, etc.) and then increase the payouts for Assaults and Headquarters. Thus fixing the imbalance of ISK and backwards growth as sites increase.

- Revamp the Sites/AI
Addresses: 2, 4, 5, 6

Solution: Every single site needs to be reviewed and modified as needed. There are several sites that should be either removed, or replaced, with a completely new one. The sites that are currently in play look like a sample tray on a menu. Sites need to play more into the lore of incursions giving players better insight and more/new objectives to complete. Similarly, site spawns need to have some variables within them, no site should have the same exact spawns every single time in the same order, nor should they be completely random. Have different types of waves spawn with different roles. These roles could be attack focused, defensive/avoid focused, ewar focused etc. This requires the fleet to pay attention and react based on whats in front of them, not just go through the motions like they are now. The site difficulty should scale within a fleet size, meaning there should be Hard/Harder/Hardest sites for each of the fleet sizes (Vanguards/Assaults/HQs). Right now fleets can be tailor made to run from site to site with ease, while more standard fleets struggle. Having certain sites that spawn for only the strongest fleets gives normal running fleets less issues finding sites.

continued in part 2



I Support Captain Rivel.
Karl Weyland
Tax Evasion Holdings
#179 - 2012-01-24 17:02:20 UTC
Is it possible to work on some sort of system to form fleets?

As of now, people are stuck in channels posting up fits for specific fleets and such. It can be a small annoyance as both FC and the ones searching for fleets. Some go unheard as chats would be mixing with fit links and there is often a new fit linked every 1 to 2 seconds in the bigger incursion running groups. Ugh

I was hoping for some sort of window, similar to the new Corporation Recruitment window, visable to everyone at all times. Here, you can post the ship you are using, type of fleet you are looking for (Armour, Shield) and the site you want to run. The FC's should then be able to sort though this list by ship type, site they are interested in etc. The 'applications' should also have a link to their fit and a button for invite to fleet. Once in a fleet, they are removed from this list. it doesn't make much sense to me why this has to be done through chat channels. This would also help the ones newer to incursions to find a fleet, as I am sure not all of them even know of the big or small groups that run them.

Hope I explained that well. I am sure that the idea could even be improved a lot, but hey! it's something along the lines of what I would like to see. Big smile

Thanks.
Graeme Rowney
For The Pink
#180 - 2012-01-24 17:09:51 UTC
I would like to note that this is the second time i wrote this because when using the IGB clicking post refreshed the page.

First and formost i am / used to be an incursion runner. They were fun and they made good isk. I now use the money i made from them to do the more fun things in eve like
pvp. However i do see the issue that people abuse them and make insane amounts ov money because they spend so much time using them.

Basically my plan is two fold only read the point if you only care about the changes and not the reason for them.

Fold 1

The issue ov the mom site is a big one once again in eve a monopoly has formed and some people think they have the right to claim it as there own and refuse people entry
and tarnish there reputation even if they are perfectly legitamate( BTL banning people for running mom sites without permisson ). I see why they do this and total understand
its for the good of the community but its not right.

Fold 1 (The point)

Introduce a timer to the whole incursion call it 3-4 days once that time is up the mom spawns and all other sites stop spawning, people in the middle of a site will still get
paid for the site they have done but no new sites ov any kind will spawn. This timer should be visible that way you get people scrambaling to get the sites towards the end.
In order to encourage a race to the end there could be small increase in payout towards the end not much but enough that people want to do them more. When the mom site spawns people will then rush
to form a fleet to kill it off and there will no longer be a reason fro people to stop people doing the incursion.
Fold 2

Another issue is those with lots of free time farming the crap out of the sites. Making insane amounts of isk and lp. Where this can be good when its you making isk and in
my opinion is a good thing for the economy, and eve in general as it means that people have money to do more things. It seems however that the superpowers are unhappy with this
as it means smaller groups maybe able to build up and finally contest them.

Fold 2 (The point)


There should be a limit to the amount of isk and i say isk because i mean isk lp should keep going. If there is a total amount of isk that each incursion pays each account. Once
you get all your money from the incursion you will only get lp for running them. So you can either go spend your money or you can keep going to and make less money.

This should fix incursions however i think that there needs to be more fleet pve stuff somthing for 'carebears' to make money together missions just arnt good enough for that.