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T2 BPO - Dual Heavy Beam Laser II

Author
Eisengans
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#1 - 2012-01-23 16:10:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Eisengans
Why is the BPO generating a loss, if I take a look on http://eveeye.com/profit.asp?

I have seen some other T2 BPOs as well in the last months who will generate a huge loss? How can they be more expensive then a T2 BPC, from which I guess the other T2 items of this product will come from? Or is there another source from where T2 items are generated and I just missed it?
Cindy Marco
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2 - 2012-01-23 17:07:51 UTC
Just because something sells for less than the value of the components doesn't mean no one will make it.

It happens alot more with T1, but can happen with T2 as well.
Cyniac
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#3 - 2012-01-23 17:26:34 UTC
Eisengans wrote:
Why is the BPO generating a loss, if I take a look on http://eveeye.com/profit.asp?

I have seen some other T2 BPOs as well in the last months who will generate a huge loss? How can they be more expensive then a T2 BPC, from which I guess the other T2 items of this product will come from? Or is there another source from where T2 items are generated and I just missed it?


That link seems to provide no information.

In certain *limited* situations T2 items (particularly ships) are sold at virtually no profit if you look at cost of components vs profit of the item, but what is in fact happening is that the manufacturer is using the T2 process to sell large amounts of components from which he *does* profit. (Selling T2 ships will move a lot more volume than selling individual components)

There are a lot of reasons why people do things, just because sometimes actions are not understood does not mean the actions are foolish or irrational.


Having said that - I have trouble thinking of a single T2 BPO which would function at a loss long term.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#4 - 2012-01-23 18:07:46 UTC
Eisengans wrote:
Why is the BPO generating a loss, if I take a look on http://eveeye.com/profit.asp?

I have seen some other T2 BPOs as well in the last months who will generate a huge loss? How can they be more expensive then a T2 BPC, from which I guess the other T2 items of this product will come from? Or is there another source from where T2 items are generated and I just missed it?


Over a year many things may change. What if the website pricing is a bit off (most use price dumps off somewhat delayed sources or don't update daily). What is today's components price you see is not the same price for the whole year?
What if it's used for "minerals compression"? 1B over a year is nothing for a big manufacturer, if he can save on lots of logistics.
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
#5 - 2012-01-23 18:12:01 UTC
It has ridiculously low demand, much lower than it used to have. A couple producers are enough to keep Jita saturated.

What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644

Jas Dor
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#6 - 2012-01-23 19:20:56 UTC
Basically what he said. Some items, like NOS, were heavily produced years ago and the market is still churning the stockpile.
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#7 - 2012-01-23 21:14:20 UTC
Also, figuring out the price of your inputs is a bit of an art form. Do you take Jita lowest? The cheapest 5% of all sell orders in Jita? All of the Forge? All of hi-sec? Just the top 4 trade hubs? What sell price should you expect to get? Lowest Jita? Lowest across all 4 trade hubs? Lowest 5% of the sell orders? In which regions?

Unless the website that you use to calculate profit is in harmony with how you purchase and sell your items, you can easily get over-inflated or completely wrong profit numbers. Which is made even worse if the website doesn't pull prices automatically from one of the big three pricing sites (EVE Central, EVE MarketData and EVEMarketeer).

And some people are just bad at math (they assume that if they got their materials for cheap that they can sell the resulting item for cheap) - or they're busy throwing good money after bad because since they own the T2 BPO they *have* to keep it busy 24x7.
Cardval Simalia
Doomheim
#8 - 2012-01-24 00:06:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Cardval Simalia
LMFAO T2 BPO owner moaning that his blueprint is not printing ISK. LMFAO have you tried invention? If you're so thick as **** that you can't make a BPO work don't even try invention you just don't have the brains for it or the stomach of how much effort it is compared to T2 BPO gifts from CCP.
Brock Nelson
#9 - 2012-01-24 00:39:04 UTC
Jack Dant wrote:
It has ridiculously low demand, much lower than it used to have. A couple producers are enough to keep Jita saturated.


Erm...600-1200 volume per day is low? I don't know about everyone but I made a cool bil inventing, building and selling them off in Jita this past month.

And yes, inventing will always be more profitable than building off bpo.

Signature removed, CCP Phantom

Zifrian
Jerkasaurus Wrecks Inc.
Sedition.
#10 - 2012-01-24 01:55:36 UTC
I'm showing profit for both invention and BPO. About 200k profit difference between the two in BPO favor.

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Eisengans
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#11 - 2012-01-24 09:03:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Eisengans
Cardval Simalia wrote:
LMFAO T2 BPO owner moaning that his blueprint is not printing ISK. LMFAO have you tried invention? If you're so thick as **** that you can't make a BPO work don't even try invention you just don't have the brains for it or the stomach of how much effort it is compared to T2 BPO gifts from CCP.


errrh .... no!

http://eveeye.com/profit.asp?blueprint=Dual+Heavy+Beam+Laser+II+Blueprint&ML=55&P=1

This is the correct link I wanted to post. So the product is the "Dual Heavy Beam Laser II". The standard HBL2 is in fact generating profict. My fault.

Thanks to all others for input. Oversupplied market was the thing which came to my mind as well. But this still takes 3 years? I have not only relied to above link. I have seen this for other T2 BPOs as well, e.g. NOS, correct! And I have done own calculation as well, using Tetrr or chruker websites and excel. The same result!

Anyway I was just thinking about taking a step into T2 BPO market (as above product is offered at the moment), but if I compare to standard BPOs like Drake, etc. I see no reason to invest in T2 BPOs until I don't know what to do with my money ...

So obviously there is no mistake in the calculation. It's just other's sell this product for much less than it's worth ... for what reason ever (oversupply > demand is on the long run no reason from my point of view).

PS: One point to profit of the raw materials sold via final product: This is not possible as well. Even then this product is generating a loss at currents price. "mined minerals are free" can't really be a reason in this case. There are other possibilities to seel your free minerals in final products with more profit and less efforts.
Jack Dant
The Gentlemen of Low Moral Fibre
#12 - 2012-01-24 09:26:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Jack Dant
Brock Nelson wrote:
Jack Dant wrote:
It has ridiculously low demand, much lower than it used to have. A couple producers are enough to keep Jita saturated.


Erm...600-1200 volume per day is low? I don't know about everyone but I made a cool bil inventing, building and selling them off in Jita this past month.

And yes, inventing will always be more profitable than building off bpo.

Erm, are you sure you have the right item? Dual heavy beam II 's only sell 100 units on a good day, and most days it doesn't reach 50.

Originally the thread mentioned the heavy beam (medium gun), but that also sold at a loss according to the website and my own invention spreadsheet. That one only moves 100-200 a day, except for someone buying out the market last night. Good luck whoever that was, you'll need it to sell 5000 units at profit.

What happens in lowsec, stays in lowsec, lowering the barrier to entry to lowsec PVP: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=476644&#post476644

Eisengans
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#13 - 2012-01-24 09:43:59 UTC
Brock Nelson wrote:
... And yes, inventing will always be more profitable than building off bpo.


Shocked

Please explain. And don't tell us, that you can generate more T2 BPCs by invention (i.e. more production runs)... This would be ridiculous.
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
#14 - 2012-01-24 11:09:57 UTC
Eisengans wrote:
Brock Nelson wrote:
... And yes, inventing will always be more profitable than building off bpo.


Shocked

Please explain. And don't tell us, that you can generate more T2 BPCs by invention (i.e. more production runs)... This would be ridiculous.



If the market is liquid and the BPCs can be made fast, he will make less ISK per item but will be able to pump multiple times as many per same period of time vs a BPO. It's not ridicolous, it's what invention mechanism was made for.
Eisengans
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#15 - 2012-01-24 11:22:30 UTC
First: But this in no point explains the loss of the T2 BPO.

Second: In that case I can build from BPO (if I have one) and from invention! Production slots are limited and that's why the number of possible inventions BPC's is not an argument for it to be more profitable! That means the production slot with BPO is the most profitable one and all other's just increase my turnover at reduced overall margin! I could use those production slots for other more profitable productions!
Finally I make more profit if I have a BPO in my hand, because it doesn't mean I can not use my remaining production slots for inventing the same item! So a reasonbable explaination why invention is more profitable is still missing!
RaTTuS
BIG
#16 - 2012-01-24 11:32:15 UTC
depends on how you buy your components ....
there are other T2 bpo's that are worse ;-p

http://eveboard.com/ub/419190933-134.png http://i.imgur.com/kYLoKrM.png

Smoking Blunts
ZC Omega
#17 - 2012-01-24 13:06:21 UTC
Eisengans wrote:
First: But this in no point explains the loss of the T2 BPO.

Second: In that case I can build from BPO (if I have one) and from invention! Production slots are limited and that's why the number of possible inventions BPC's is not an argument for it to be more profitable! That means the production slot with BPO is the most profitable one and all other's just increase my turnover at reduced overall margin! I could use those production slots for other more profitable productions!
Finally I make more profit if I have a BPO in my hand, because it doesn't mean I can not use my remaining production slots for inventing the same item! So a reasonbable explaination why invention is more profitable is still missing!



if you have 1 t2bpo any dosnt matter. you can build x in a month.
if you have 10 invention build slots you can build x 10 times.

volume is why invention out strips bpo's in most cases. ok there are some terrible t2 items than dont get used enough to even support the t2 bpo's that are out there for them. but if the t2 bpo's were removed they would still not be used enough to make them worth inventing either.

the only real advantage of a t2 bpo is low click count building isk/click.

OMG when can i get a pic here

Eisengans
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#18 - 2012-01-24 13:13:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Eisengans
Why some people don't read - just guess and answer? Roll

Read your quote from my post again please. it's not relevant in this case how much invention you can do! If you have one or more T2 BPO you can use your remaining production slots for invention anyway, but the BPO will bring the most profit ...

Edit: ... per production slot!

But in that case it means a loss!

Edit 2: Let's assume we have one profitable T2 BPO and 10 production slots: Which constellation will return the most profit per time you think?

1 BPO + 9 Invented BPC

or

10 invented BPC?

Do you now get the point? And that's why I was asking why invented BPCs have been called more profitable? It doesn't make sense from my point of view? Or did I miss something?
Smoking Blunts
ZC Omega
#19 - 2012-01-24 20:08:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Smoking Blunts
Eisengans wrote:
Why some people don't read - just guess and answer? Roll

Read your quote from my post again please. it's not relevant in this case how much invention you can do! If you have one or more T2 BPO you can use your remaining production slots for invention anyway, but the BPO will bring the most profit ...

Edit: ... per production slot!

But in that case it means a loss!

Edit 2: Let's assume we have one profitable T2 BPO and 10 production slots: Which constellation will return the most profit per time you think?

1 BPO + 9 Invented BPC

or

10 invented BPC?

Do you now get the point? And that's why I was asking why invented BPCs have been called more profitable? It doesn't make sense from my point of view? Or did I miss something?


yes i understood your post. i was stating why invention is more profitible than owning 1 bpo.

personally i make more from invention than i do from my bpo's, just building from the bpo is far easier over all

edit infact i make 4 times as much from invention with less than1/10th of the isk investment.

example.
1 nuetron blaster 2 bpo makes 500mil/month from a investment of 30bil.
10 times nuetron blasters bpc's makes 4.2bil/month for an investment of 10bil
which way is more profitible?

OMG when can i get a pic here

Zifrian
Jerkasaurus Wrecks Inc.
Sedition.
#20 - 2012-01-24 23:32:52 UTC
Eisengans wrote:
First: But this in no point explains the loss of the T2 BPO.

Second: In that case I can build from BPO (if I have one) and from invention! Production slots are limited and that's why the number of possible inventions BPC's is not an argument for it to be more profitable! That means the production slot with BPO is the most profitable one and all other's just increase my turnover at reduced overall margin! I could use those production slots for other more profitable productions!
Finally I make more profit if I have a BPO in my hand, because it doesn't mean I can not use my remaining production slots for inventing the same item! So a reasonbable explaination why invention is more profitable is still missing!

Well, invention isn't usually considered to be a limiting factor in the time of making the item since you invent while doing other things and build up a stockpile of BPC's.

So with a Dual heavy beam laser BPO with say 10 ME/PE, you have 2.5 hours of production time and total cost per run of 1.8 mil.

For invention, with a standard -4/-4 BPC you get 10 runs, at 6 hours per item and cost of 2.1 mil per run.

With the T2 BPO, to make 100 items, it would run you about 11 days with ME/PE 10 and a total of 180mil to make.

With 10 T2 BPCs, to make 100 items, it would run you almost 4 days with ME/PE -4 and a total of 212 mil to make.

The IPH on both of these is negative, but the basic idea is that with profitable items, you can make more isk per hour through invention than with a T2 BPO. Considering invention costs are 250k per run, then I could see that happening.

Although your point is good but with a caveat, *if* the production slots that are freed up because you have a T2 BPO are being used to produce something that gets more isk per hour than you would otherwise get with invention, then yes. But the massive cost of a T2 BPO really ties up a lot of isk in one item, that could turn out to no longer be profitable (for a number of reasons) and you would have isk sunk in something that you no longer make or likely would not be able to get a return on. I'm sure the owner of a Dual Heavy Beam Laser II is thinking that every day if he bought it from another player recently.

In short, T2 BPO's are not a sure path to riches and you can easily do the same with invention, plus be more flexible to market changes and have the isk to do it much more quickly. The downside is the increased complexity to produce the items. But it's not a limiting factor.

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