These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Science & Industry

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
123Next page
 

New to PI: High Sec PI Still profitable? (Sorry if its a dead horse...)
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
I Like Characters
Doomheim
#1 - 2012-01-23 00:31:12 UTC
Googled it, but not getting a lot of recent info on this, so I figured I'd ask:

I'd like to do PI, but I'm wondering if doing highsec PI is any kind of profitable. By profitable, I mean a single character that is active and has a good financial foundation to start with (300m isk or so) with decent PI skills(2m SP or more in PI) being able to bring in 100mil+ a month just on the PI aspect of the game.

I'm not asking you to give me your trade secrets, just a simple explanation with a yes or not. "Yes, but it is difficult because..." "No, because...". Etc. A rough estimate of how much you think would be a reasonable average income for an active player with a decent budget would be awesome, but not expected.

This is primarily me trying to plan for the future. Do I do PI/Is it worth it? Can I do it in highsec or do I need to move to lowsec/0.0 to even have a chance to bring in cash? Things like that.

Be kind! I know it's a newb question and probably been asked a few good times, but I like having up to date information from the people who have the most experience dealing with it, and that would be you guys!
Lauren Hellfury
Super Happy Awesome Fun Times
#2 - 2012-01-23 00:57:29 UTC
Yes, with minimal effort.

What you want is a planet that you can do extraction to P2 production on. That's a launchpad with 2x ECUs each needing to pull an average of 6k p0 per hour. Run 2x BIFs, one producing each of the required p1s and a single AIF running the p2.

I run that on 3 day cycles and each character running 5 planets pulls in around 150M per month. I spend maybe 10 minutes a week tops per character to do it.

You'll need to empty the launchpad of accumulated P2s about once a month which is around 5k m3 of P2s. So that's 25k m3 of P2s to move per character per month. You can do that in most T1 industrials with the bonus that whilst 150M is certainly in the profitable to gank category for a T1 indy it is not much of a profit so you'll probably be left alone so long as you don't afk autopilot it.

Help rid New Eden of T2 BPOs: ** https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=62797 **The Full Pocket Aggro blog:  http://fullpocketaggro.blogspot.com/ **Now showing: **Margin Trading Scams
Invictra Atreides
Toward the Terra
#3 - 2012-01-23 05:55:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Invictra Atreides
Here are some HighSec PI speculations on the average profit: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=59709
Going for the Best P1 items:
- 15 planets @ 1.5M/day = 610.2M/mo

The Average P1 items should be around:
- 15 planets @ 1M/day = 385.2M/mo

(10% Tax Included)

I won't go deep into how to setup planets cuz everyone has their own preferences. Just try to put out as much P1 as possible.
The Above numbers assume 1 Planet can keep running 3 Processors on a single planet for 24/7.

EDIT: Forum won't let me link with the url= tag What?

Blog | Tutorials | Youtube "I don’t know everything, I just know what I know."
Scrapyard Bob
EVE University
Ivy League
#4 - 2012-01-23 06:08:10 UTC
The only thing that changed is that you now have to pay attention to the tariff amounts in your calculations - rather then just treating them like background noise.

P1 & P2 harvest planets are the least risky, but you'll get at best about 800-1200k ISK/day per planet in hi-sec. Which is very nice income for a first month player, but not as exciting for a veteran player (after about 6-12 months). Factory planets (buying inputs off the market and turning them into stuff to be sold back to the market) are riskier, but can make 3-5M/day/planet (or more).

Just don't harvest crappy stuff like Bacteria (or any P1 that sells for less then 300 ISK/u).

http://www.evemarketeer.com/item/group_summary/1334

Lelith Hellebron
#5 - 2012-01-23 09:55:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Lelith Hellebron
A lot of these numbers are dependant on a relatively high workload (resulting in a poor isk/work-hour ratio). Honestly, I shudder to think how much time it takes fussing with planets/logistics to churn out the previously mentioned 600m/mo from hisec worlds.

However, I have pioneered a method of operations that requires very little input and risk (if engaged in intelligently) for respectable returns.

Assuming an average P1 commodity sell price of 500 isk - fairly conservative ATM if you're in the right market - I can produce about 287 million isk per month worth of goods from six worlds, and that's after a heady %17 interbus customs office tax. I'm remembering this value from awhile back, so if I've bungled it, someone please correct me. If you're the sort to run multiple characters, obviously that triples to 861isk/month from 18 planets.

But here's the real kicker; That number (287) comes from an average of about an hour's worth of work once every four days, This Includes moving ECU heads, resetting programs, exporting and hauling to market as-needed. Ultimately, this breaks down to about 38M isk/work-hour. or almost four times what you'd get mining in Hisec, and AFAIK, more than running L4's.

Honestly, now that I'm practiced at it, it probably takes me less time than stated to get my business sorted out. Since my method requires lowsec operations, however, sometimes logistics can be a beezy - so I estimated conservatively.

[i]I am a leaf on the wind... Watch how I soar![/i]
Professor Alphane
Les Corsaires Diable
#6 - 2012-01-23 10:06:08 UTC
Lelith Hellebron wrote:
Honestly, I shudder to think how much time it takes fussing with planets/logistics to churn out the previously mentioned 600m/mo from hisec worlds.



Lets see

1.Setup time couple of hours

2.log in once a day for 5 mins to reset extractors (so your using the best 15 min cycles)

3.haul once a week maybe twice on high bulk goods

Also note the person who quoted that assumes 3 PI charecters on the account in the same way you have.

[center]YOU MUST THINK FIRST....[/center] [center]"I sit with the broken angels clutching at straws and nursing our scars.." - Marillion [/center] [center]The wise man watches the rise and fall of fools from afar[/center]
Lelith Hellebron
#7 - 2012-01-23 10:51:36 UTC
Professor Alphane wrote:
Lelith Hellebron wrote:
Honestly, I shudder to think how much time it takes fussing with planets/logistics to churn out the previously mentioned 600m/mo from hisec worlds.



Lets see

1.Setup time couple of hours

2.log in once a day for 5 mins to reset extractors (so your using the best 15 min cycles)

3.haul once a week maybe twice on high bulk goods

Also note the person who quoted that assumes 3 PI charecters on the account in the same way you have.



Firstly, I'm well aware that she was referring to 3 characters. It is irrelevant, since (theoretically), your isk/work-hour ratio does not change reguardless of how many characters you run, assuming that they are all run the same way.

Secondly, I did not assume three characters in my method; I briefly mentioned that the potential gross of ONE character (which is how many I run) would be tripled if a person opted to instead run three.

Also, I notice that you forgot to tabulate the restructuring of colonies in your, ahem, "insightful" analysis of hisec PI. Since hisec planet resource nodes will deplete to unprofitably low levels alarmingly fast, ESPECIALLY if you're running 15-minute cycles, there's effectively an additionional and massive tax on time AND isk. Even moreso if you like to have more than one spaceport (bastages are expensive!). Furthermore, if it takes you just 5 minutes to reset your extractors, even on just 5 worlds, you're not adjusting the heads at all, which exacerbates the depletion issue even more. Frankly, I'd be shocked if you you finish even two programs without your BIFs running dry hours and hours before completion.

But somehow, I get the feeling that you have no gorram idea what I'm talking about.

In summary, cough up some numbers to back up your absurd claim that 600m/mo can be obtained from Hisec worlds with minimal effort, or we'll be forced to assume that your 'contributions' to this thread are little more than wild armchair speculation from an experienceless hack who thinks that minerals he mines are free.

[i]I am a leaf on the wind... Watch how I soar![/i]
Professor Alphane
Les Corsaires Diable
#8 - 2012-01-23 11:15:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Professor Alphane
Lelith Hellebron wrote:
Professor Alphane wrote:
Lelith Hellebron wrote:
Honestly, I shudder to think how much time it takes fussing with planets/logistics to churn out the previously mentioned 600m/mo from hisec worlds.



Lets see

1.Setup time couple of hours

2.log in once a day for 5 mins to reset extractors (so your using the best 15 min cycles)

3.haul once a week maybe twice on high bulk goods

Also note the person who quoted that assumes 3 PI charecters on the account in the same way you have.



Firstly, I'm well aware that she was referring to 3 characters. It is irrelevant, since (theoretically), your isk/work-hour ratio does not change reguardless of how many characters you run, assuming that they are all run the same way.

Secondly, I did not assume three characters in my method; I briefly mentioned that the potential gross of ONE character (which is how many I run) would be tripled if a person opted to instead run three.

Also, I notice that you forgot to tabulate the restructuring of colonies in your, ahem, "insightful" analysis of hisec PI. Since hisec planet resource nodes will deplete to unprofitably low levels alarmingly fast, ESPECIALLY if you're running 15-minute cycles, there's effectively an additionional and massive tax on time AND isk. Even moreso if you like to have more than one spaceport (bastages are expensive!). Furthermore, if it takes you just 5 minutes to reset your extractors, even on just 5 worlds, you're not adjusting the heads at all, which exacerbates the depletion issue even more. Frankly, I'd be shocked if you you finish even two programs without your BIFs running dry hours and hours before completion.

But somehow, I get the feeling that you have no gorram idea what I'm talking about.

In summary, cough up some numbers to back up your absurd claim that 600m/mo can be obtained from Hisec worlds with minimal effort, or we'll be forced to assume that your 'contributions' to this thread are little more than wild armchair speculation from an experienceless hack who thinks that minerals he mines are free.



Ok to address your points

1. Ok we have established we are talking about an alted account

2. Fair enough

3. Moving heads takes about about 30 seconds, moving a ECU maybe 1-2 mins

4. You might be right, what are you talking about?

5. 1.2*6*3*30 = 648 - 10%= 583

6. Doing fine out of highsec PI myself cheers

[center]YOU MUST THINK FIRST....[/center] [center]"I sit with the broken angels clutching at straws and nursing our scars.." - Marillion [/center] [center]The wise man watches the rise and fall of fools from afar[/center]
Celgar Thurn
Department 10
#9 - 2012-01-23 11:43:32 UTC
I personally would not recommend high-sec PI production as a means of generating isk to new or veteran pilots. Wild profit ratios from high-sec PI continue to be stated on the forum. The hideous hundreds of percent increase in taxes have removed PI as a career path for new pilots in the world of New Eden. In addition there is a lot of fiddle-fiddle & click-click involved. I'm not trying to divert you from something that I personally do - just suggesting a better path.

You would be better served by doing missions & salvaging. Even high sec mining will generate more isk for you than high-sec PI atm. And that is NOT to say that high sec mining is a poor way of generating ISK. Times are currently very good for high sec mineral trading.

If you were looking to fuel a POS I would say high sec PI is worth doing. Ten planets will easily cover the PI content needed for the fuel blocks for a large tower. But as you are a new pilot that is probably not a course of action for you.
Lelith Hellebron
#10 - 2012-01-23 12:26:15 UTC
Professor Alphane wrote:
3. Moving heads takes about about 30 seconds, moving a ECU maybe 1-2 mins


There are so many things wrong with you, it's difficult to know where to begin, but I'll forge ahead anyway. Lets assume for a moment that you've actually timed yourself doing this (anyone that has, like me, knows you haven't), and lets also assume that you are, in fact, some sort of computerized super-human that can indeed complete this task with any sort of consistent improvement in yield within that timeframe, your point is utterly invalid because this efficiency would translate directly to any other type of setup. If I use your rather fast and loose figures, the profit/work-hour ratio of the lowsec setup I discussed becomes astronomical.

More relevant, however, is that you did not address the fact that the anemic initial yield and vicious depletion inherant to hisec planets, ESPECIALLY in the case of the more valuable P1 products, makes your fantasy numbers in your fifth point utter BS. So lets have a look at that, shall we?

Professor Alphane wrote:
5. 1.2*6*3*30 = 648 - 10%= 583


6 planets I get, 30 days I get, and 3 accounts I get. So somehow you're getting 1.2M isk/day per hisec planet with little/no effort. Lets analyze that. We'll go ahead and assume that you're working on very profitable 0.5 planets. We'll further assume that somehow, you found three systems with six such planets in each (there aren't, I've looked), thereby reducing your travel time between worlds to a negligible minimum. We'll use the number I gave for P1 commodities, as the best ones tend to yield the best margins on the whole production chain, which is 500isk/ea.

So, for one of your Hisec planets to yield 1.2m isk/day, it has to turn out 2400 units of P1 per day, which is 100 per hour, which is equivelant to 2.5 BIFs being fed 24/7, nonstop, all month. Not difficult for a short time, sure... until you've been operating for a week, and your day long cycles and claim jumpers suck your entire ECU radius dry, and you can't even keep one running nonstop. See, there's a REASON Hisec planets suck, and it's not the Interbus CO's, it's their crappy yield and even worse depletion algorythms. I know, because I work 0.1 planets and struggle greatly to keep just 4 BIFs per world fed on 4 day, 4 hour cycles without having to move my spaceports every other program. And before you try and call me on it, yes, I've worked high-yield 0.5's for the less profitable, higher yield P0's, and I know for a fact that you couldn't feed 2.5 BIF's/planet in hisec without unsustainable depletion.

So now, you have to make a choice; operate with ****-poor capacity, or tear down your whole setup (or setups if you run more than one ECU) so that you can rebuild in a new spot with higher resource concentration, which costs a lot of both time and money. And yes, I'm familiar with stretching the ECU out. Even on the smallest planets, it's not near enough unless you've given up enough facilities to give you copious amounts of expendable CPU and grid, in which case you're either operating at **** capacity again (fewer BIFS, heads), or you're lying about how often you have to haul (Less storage).

We can therefore be certain that you either spend tens of hours and millions of isk rebuilding colonies and hauling product that you simply omitted from your calculations (probable), or that you actually produce much, MUCH less material than your numbers imply (possible), or both. Having initially engaged in hisec PI, I can personally attest to this; Before interbus taxes and depletion were even an issue, (back when PI was a clickfest), the best isk/work-hour ratio obtainable in Hisec hovered just around 25mil/w-hr. And the prices for those commodities were BETTER back then. I'm talking 400-475 for toxic metals. I'd be SHOCKED if it's possible to get more than 10m/w-hr out of hisec at all anymore, which means it is in all likelihood worse than simply mining.

Please stop fabricating figures and posting them as fact; people come here looking for information.

[i]I am a leaf on the wind... Watch how I soar![/i]
Professor Alphane
Les Corsaires Diable
#11 - 2012-01-23 12:40:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Professor Alphane
Scrapyard Bob wrote:


P1 & P2 harvest planets are the least risky, but you'll get at best about 800-1200k ISK/day per planet in hi-sec.


Not empty quoting, agreeing its a fair assesment. Poster above no idea why you've got your knickers in such a twist What?

[center]YOU MUST THINK FIRST....[/center] [center]"I sit with the broken angels clutching at straws and nursing our scars.." - Marillion [/center] [center]The wise man watches the rise and fall of fools from afar[/center]
Invictra Atreides
Toward the Terra
#12 - 2012-01-23 12:43:44 UTC
Grate the Forum ate my Post!! Evil

Doh and the post was so good and all Sad

Anyway based on my analysis I came to the following conclusion:
- It takes around 10 min per day to restart 15 planets
- you will make 1.296.000 units of P1 per month (492.480 m3)
- you will pay a Export Tax of 64.800.000 ISK
- you haul to the nearest NPC station (Red Frog takes it to Jita)

Now rly how much Work is that for 600 mil? I know of ppl who haul more than 10x of that for such money.

Ah why did it have to delete my post. I felt so proud of it. Maybe I should write a tutorial on High Sec PI. Straight

Blog | Tutorials | Youtube "I don’t know everything, I just know what I know."
Lelith Hellebron
#13 - 2012-01-23 13:02:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Lelith Hellebron
Professor Alphane wrote:
Poster above no idea why you've got your knickers in such a twist What?


It's simply because of the flippant manner in which you suggested that pulling 600m/mo from hisec worlds involves little effort at all, when in fact, if it is even possible to sustainably do so (I doubt it), it would be so labor intensive that it would barely rival mining as a source of hisec income.

I wrote a well-researched post for the OP comparing the merits of lowsec PI with the lack thereof of hisec PI, and you vomited a poorly informed response as though we all aught to just take your assessment as the word of god.

Should I have kust agreed with you instead? Yes, I'm sure Hisec PI is exponentially easier than lowsec PI and only slightly less profitable. (That was actually true before depletion was introduced, but alas, no longer.)


To the poster above; You guys really aught to clock yourselves before making these chronological estimates. Time investment is an important factor in opportunity cost calculations. That's why I still rememaber that it took me 7 minutes and 50 seconds, give or take three seconds, to reset all my extractors under the old clickfest system. You're suggesting it takes a mere 3 minutes and 20 seconds to reset the heads on 5 planets, which would be impressive if all you were doing was restarting the program without any head adjustment at all, and I'd bet my wallet that it doesn't take logging out/back in into account.

More likely it takes 25 minutes, give or take 5, to reset 15 planets, and that's moving at a pretty good clip. And, as with the Professor here, I don't see any indication that your theoretical numbers have accounted for depletion, overcrowding, or hotspot drift.

Edit; Oh, it's you, Invicta. I love that avatar. I changed mine's eye color because of your photo. P

[i]I am a leaf on the wind... Watch how I soar![/i]
Professor Alphane
Les Corsaires Diable
#14 - 2012-01-23 13:13:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Professor Alphane
Lelith Hellebron wrote:
You guys really aught to clock yourselves before making these chronological estimates. P



Time to reset 5 planets including log in to EVE time 2:06

*3 = 6 mins about the 5 mins I originally quoted. Roll

[center]YOU MUST THINK FIRST....[/center] [center]"I sit with the broken angels clutching at straws and nursing our scars.." - Marillion [/center] [center]The wise man watches the rise and fall of fools from afar[/center]
Ponder Yonder
Strategic Exploration and Development Corp
Silent Company
#15 - 2012-01-23 13:19:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Ponder Yonder
Lelith Hellebron wrote:
Professor Alphane wrote:
3. Moving heads takes about about 30 seconds, moving a ECU maybe 1-2 mins


There are so many things wrong with you,...

Professor Alphane wrote:
5. 1.2*6*3*30 = 648 - 10%= 583


6 planets I get, 30 days I get, and 3 accounts I get. So somehow you're getting 1.2M isk/day per hisec planet with little/no effort.


Actually Lelith, you are wrong. Professor's numbers are perfectly feasible for hi-sec P2 production, on multi-day cycles even with 4/5 skills.
Lelith Hellebron
#16 - 2012-01-23 13:27:51 UTC
Professor Alphane wrote:
Lelith Hellebron wrote:
You guys really aught to clock yourselves before making these chronological estimates. P



Time to reset 5 planets including log in to EVE time 2:06

*3 = 6 mins about the 5 mins I originally quoted. Roll


It's 6 minutes and 18 seconds, which is more than 20% less isk/w-hr when using that as your only temporal metric, which you (fallaciously) are, AND you were claiming 5 minutes for six planets, not five for five. And that's still without any head adjustment, which wrecks your sustainability. AND you have to include logout time for each character as well, unless you're running parallel clients, which would slow you down even more, probably. And after all that, you're still racing the clock, so it's a best-case scenario figure.

Sooo.... thanks for proving my point, but I think I'm doing a pretty good job of that. Feel free to just accept it and objectively re-evaluate the value of Hisec PI. Or you can just stick to your guns, whatevs. I've done all I can and am going to bed.

[i]I am a leaf on the wind... Watch how I soar![/i]
Professor Alphane
Les Corsaires Diable
#17 - 2012-01-23 13:36:18 UTC
Lelith Hellebron wrote:


It's 6 minutes and 18 seconds, which is more than 20% less isk/w-hr when using that as your only temporal metric, which you (fallaciously) are, AND you were claiming 5 minutes for six planets, not five for five.

It was just an estimate originally which is fairly accurate

And that's still without any head adjustment, which wrecks your sustainability. AND you have to include logout time for each character as well, unless you're running parallel clients, which would slow you down even more, probably. And after all that, you're still racing the clock, so it's a best-case scenario figure.

As mentioned that includes login time from windows so each client would take the same and I did point out in my second (maybe third post) the process of head realignment can be a little longer but doesn't need to be done daily

Sooo.... thanks for proving my point,

???????


but I think I'm doing a pretty good job of that.

You think wrong IMO

Feel free to just accept it and objectively re-evaluate the value of Hisec PI.

Based on what you've said I feel there is no need to but thanks for the offer


Or you can just stick to your guns, whatevs

Like you seem to want to you mean despite your figures not agreeing with 3 or 4 others posters assesments

. I've done all I can and am going to bed.

Probably for the best, sleep well



[center]YOU MUST THINK FIRST....[/center] [center]"I sit with the broken angels clutching at straws and nursing our scars.." - Marillion [/center] [center]The wise man watches the rise and fall of fools from afar[/center]
Lelith Hellebron
#18 - 2012-01-23 13:37:36 UTC
Ponder Yonder wrote:
Lelith Hellebron wrote:
Professor Alphane wrote:
3. Moving heads takes about about 30 seconds, moving a ECU maybe 1-2 mins


There are so many things wrong with you,...

Professor Alphane wrote:
5. 1.2*6*3*30 = 648 - 10%= 583


6 planets I get, 30 days I get, and 3 accounts I get. So somehow you're getting 1.2M isk/day per hisec planet with little/no effort.


Actually Lelith, you are wrong. Professor's numbers are perfectly feasible for hi-sec P2 production, on multi-day cycles even with 4/5 skills.


Ugh, try reading the whole post next time. Let me break it down for you TL;DR types

-I know those numbers are doable. I have achieved them.
-Their sustainability at those levels is questionable, at best. Mostly a matter of how long until you're rebuilding your colony.
-The problem whith Professor's numbers are his incredibly inaccurate portayal (see; nonexistant) of his time investment in PI. He is either not calculating, or grossly misrepresenting hauling time and/or costs, time spent fiddling with colonies, times spent fencing goods, etc.
-It is more profitable, from an isk/w-hr ratio perspective, to run L4's than to run a perfect Hisec PI operation, and I'd wager that it's more profitable to mine 'roids, but I'm not going to get back into hisec PI to find out just to save people like you from yourselves.

Big smile 'nite!

[i]I am a leaf on the wind... Watch how I soar![/i]
Lelith Hellebron
#19 - 2012-01-23 13:46:34 UTC
Professor Alphane wrote:
More condescending verbal diharreah


Well, I have my impartial facts and data painstakingly cultivated via years of personal experience, and you've got shoddy guesstimates and an obvious bias toward your MO that reeks of the same sort of flag-waving exhibited by MIMAFers that don't understand opportunity cost.

We've done what we can. Ball is in the OP's court now.

[i]I am a leaf on the wind... Watch how I soar![/i]
Professor Alphane
Les Corsaires Diable
#20 - 2012-01-23 13:50:06 UTC
Lelith Hellebron wrote:
Professor Alphane wrote:
More condescending verbal diharreah


Well, I have my impartial facts and data painstakingly cultivated via years of personal experience, and you've got shoddy guesstimates and an obvious bias toward your MO that reeks of the same sort of flag-waving exhibited by MIMAFers that don't understand opportunity cost.

We've done what we can. Ball is in the OP's court now.



Sorry if you feel I was condesending to you too be honest you seem to have throughout this disscusion done your level best to try and insult me.

Why should I give a toss what you think, as you say it's up to the OP.

[center]YOU MUST THINK FIRST....[/center] [center]"I sit with the broken angels clutching at straws and nursing our scars.." - Marillion [/center] [center]The wise man watches the rise and fall of fools from afar[/center]
123Next page