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The capital shield tranporter buff or why it is another Chimera nerf thread

Author
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#1 - 2012-01-22 11:43:42 UTC
Okay first of all thank you for decreasing the insane amounts of cpu use for capital shield transporters!

Now at some point a CCP Dev should explain to my why a ships computer needs such crazy amounts of cpu to adjust an energy field that only uses energy and capacitor and why armor repair modules need far less cpu to program gazzillions of nanobots to multiply and repair your ships armor!

That said, as it is now on the test server the Chimera carrier can now fit two capital shield transporters and two capital energy transfers with the triage module.
Since triage fittings use most of all available slots to fit capacitor recharge modules in addition to capacitor flux coils or capacitor power relays with the typical damage control II to live a few moments longer the Chimera still lacks 38 cpu to fit a shield boost amplifier II.
If you drop it, you can have all the rest of the medium slot filled with the capacitor recharger II's you find on all triage fits. Is this to secretly nerf the Chimera's only's defence for a small logistic buff?
Didn't it occur to you to actually assemble a Chimera and fit it for the triage module or since you favor the slaves so much didn't really bother?
If you eventually go for the tech2 triage module it gets even worse because the tiny 10 cpu it needs on the Chimera will render an empty medium slot because with your two captial shield transporters, two energy transfer modules and the triage module II you are supposed to wear you end up having a rest of 7 cpu for either the shield boost amplifier, which need 55 cpu or the capacitor recharger II which needs 16 cpu.
Neither will fit and you end up dropping one of your range bonused shield transporters - again.

Should Chimera pilots no go for more expensive faction gear to fit thier carriers?
I am not saying it cannot be done, but if you go for those rare dropping named capital shield modules, your carrier fitting will cost more then fitted with faction gear.

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Kyoko Sakoda
Achura-Waschi Exchange
Monyusaiya Industry Trade Group
#2 - 2012-01-22 20:16:57 UTC
Wat.
Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#3 - 2012-01-23 00:09:45 UTC
If you can fit triage mod, 2 shield transporters and 2 energy transfers you are already fitting 2 more capital mods than the Nidhoggur is capable of with a shield tank...

Pinky
Headerman
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2012-01-23 06:37:52 UTC
cpu implant much?

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Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#5 - 2012-01-23 10:10:15 UTC
I wouldn't mind buying a single meta 4 cap recharger - You should seriously try to make a shield tanked and shield transporting Nidhoggur...

Pinky
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#6 - 2012-01-23 16:25:42 UTC
Headerman wrote:
cpu implant much?


I know what I would have to do to make it work but my point is that you shouldn't even have that problem in the first place!
Damnit, that should not be so hard to understand.

You know, every ship in EVE has this hidden section thats called "info" that gives you a hint, what you may want to put on it and for the Chimera is says the following:

Caldari Carrier Skill Bonuses:
50% bonus to Capital Energy and Shield transfer range per level
5% bonus to all Shield resistances per level
99% reduction in CPU need for Warfare Link modules
Can fit Tactical Logistics Reconfiguration modules
Can deploy 1 additional Fighter or Drone per level
200% bonus to Fighter control range

By the slot layout of the ship you may figure, why not put modules on it, for which I get a nice range bonus from?
Now you assemble the ship and maybe research, what others may have put on it and say give it a try.
Starting from the high slots downwards you begin with the triage module and take two capital energy transfer units I on it and you have the other two high slots free to put on the obvious capital shield transports on it.
By now you get a message from Aura, telling you that you ran out of powergrid to fit the second shield transfer unit and you may think, why?
As it states I should make use of these but I cannot fit them without a additonal powergrid upgrade?
It this some kind of a joke?
Anyway you put a power diagnostic system in one of the low slots and there you go, it all fits.
Now moving to the medium slots, you might guess that on a caldari ship, you probably should go for a shield booster and fit a capital shield booster I and to give that booster a litte assistence you give it a boost amplifier II.
So far so good.
Now you know that in triage mode, you will need anything your capacitor has to offer for you and your fleet mates, so instead of fitting some invul fields, you make everything else make your capacitor recharge as fast as possible and take the rest of the medium slots to fit capacitor rechargers II.
The remaining three low slot will get capacitor flux coils to not screw your shield booster down and the typical damage controll II but wait-
Haha silly me, I forgot the last medium slot and pick up another capacitor recharger and noes, that wont happen because you end up with 7 cpu points left.
You now have some choices by using very expensive meta 4 modules and those insanly expensive named captial modules and this fit is good to go but do you really want to five named captial modules on your ship that cost more then the ship itself with that premium insurance?
I know I would not, just saying.

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This is the law of ship progression!

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Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#7 - 2012-01-23 16:46:37 UTC
Have you considered CCP only mean for you to fit 1 of each capital module you have bonus for?
Honestly I think 3 is a magic number, but even if you are right the Nidhoggur is in far worse conditions for an all out shield triage setup.

Pinky
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#8 - 2012-01-23 17:21:20 UTC
Yes of course I did.
If you switch on shield xfer for a captial remote armor or hull repair unit, it'll be all fine and I will have to unlock and switch targets more often - yeay
-.-
On the other hand there are not many Caldari ships I know that have such fitting issues with fits for there bonuses, well except the Moa which still lacks at least 200 powergrid to be able to fit 250mm rails and a medium slot.
Except her, you will have no cpu or powergrid problems on any Caldari ship and fitting modules that get bonuses from in terms of shield boosters, hardeners and so on.
Hahaha, I forgot the heavy assault launchers which generate a lot of lacking powergrid issues, but I was talking about the Chimera here.
Anyway, I gave my feedback on the test server feedback section.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

Gizan
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#9 - 2012-01-23 18:46:03 UTC
try using the meta modules?
CaptainFalcon07
Scarlet Weather Rhapsody
#10 - 2012-01-23 23:53:40 UTC
Use faction or meta 4 Cap power Relays, they use half the cpu of t2. Cap power relays are better than power diagnostics.

Sure its burst tank is lower, but your sustain tanking is much higher.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#11 - 2012-01-24 17:04:36 UTC
CaptainFalcon07 wrote:
Use faction or meta 4 Cap power Relays, they use half the cpu of t2. Cap power relays are better than power diagnostics.

Sure its burst tank is lower, but your sustain tanking is much higher.


Okay to be honest, I can only relay on my first impressions I got from the test server, so all reference is based on that, my appologies.
Now sitting in a carrier in triage mode is not so much about "sustained" shield boosting and much more pumping your capacitor in your logistic modules to assist your fleet mates on the field.
You may need to burst your shield booster from time to time, if you are being targetted but thats about it. And to do so you want every boost cycle to count - you don't have much.
The tech1 triage module will drain all your capacitor very quickly and you my have to sit there with zero capacitor for a few seconds to get your capacitor to recharge a little.
During that time your are a sitting duck and cross your fingers, that the opposite fleet commander doesn't put your name as primary or secondary next.
My triage fitting will be able to shield boost indefinately if I don't get neuted, but that is not the point of the triage mode, but if you time it right you can take turns with another carrier in your fleet.
You should also know, that during five minutes of triage mode you cannot get any assistence on your ship and as much as your mates may want to help you, they can't.
Now the capital shield booster I will boost 7200 HP back on your shields out of triage every 10 seconds and any capacitor power relay will reduce it by 10% per module.
This might not sound much but on a capital ship those numbers multiply very quickly. That is way I would use capacitor flux coils. Those reduce your capacitor but will recharge them faster and by judging from my tests on the test server, I would like to keep it that way.
A shield boost amplifier II will put the boost HP up to 10100 I believe and will slow down it's demise a bit further.
On the field any minute counts for you and your ship mates.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

CaptainFalcon07
Scarlet Weather Rhapsody
#12 - 2012-01-24 18:54:52 UTC
elitatwo wrote:


Okay to be honest, I can only relay on my first impressions I got from the test server, so all reference is based on that, my appologies.
Now sitting in a carrier in triage mode is not so much about "sustained" shield boosting and much more pumping your capacitor in your logistic modules to assist your fleet mates on the field.
You may need to burst your shield booster from time to time, if you are being targetted but thats about it. And to do so you want every boost cycle to count - you don't have much.
The tech1 triage module will drain all your capacitor very quickly and you my have to sit there with zero capacitor for a few seconds to get your capacitor to recharge a little.
During that time your are a sitting duck and cross your fingers, that the opposite fleet commander doesn't put your name as primary or secondary next.
My triage fitting will be able to shield boost indefinately if I don't get neuted, but that is not the point of the triage mode, but if you time it right you can take turns with another carrier in your fleet.
You should also know, that during five minutes of triage mode you cannot get any assistence on your ship and as much as your mates may want to help you, they can't.
Now the capital shield booster I will boost 7200 HP back on your shields out of triage every 10 seconds and any capacitor power relay will reduce it by 10% per module.
This might not sound much but on a capital ship those numbers multiply very quickly. That is way I would use capacitor flux coils. Those reduce your capacitor but will recharge them faster and by judging from my tests on the test server, I would like to keep it that way.
A shield boost amplifier II will put the boost HP up to 10100 I believe and will slow down it's demise a bit further.
On the field any minute counts for you and your ship mates.


Actually Meta 4 Cap Power Relays have a lower shield boost penalty than T2 and the penalty is also stacking penalized. So it won't reduce your tank that drastically.
Demon Azrakel
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#13 - 2012-01-24 23:28:34 UTC
CaptainFalcon07 wrote:
elitatwo wrote:


Okay to be honest, I can only relay on my first impressions I got from the test server, so all reference is based on that, my appologies.
Now sitting in a carrier in triage mode is not so much about "sustained" shield boosting and much more pumping your capacitor in your logistic modules to assist your fleet mates on the field.
You may need to burst your shield booster from time to time, if you are being targetted but thats about it. And to do so you want every boost cycle to count - you don't have much.
The tech1 triage module will drain all your capacitor very quickly and you my have to sit there with zero capacitor for a few seconds to get your capacitor to recharge a little.
During that time your are a sitting duck and cross your fingers, that the opposite fleet commander doesn't put your name as primary or secondary next.
My triage fitting will be able to shield boost indefinately if I don't get neuted, but that is not the point of the triage mode, but if you time it right you can take turns with another carrier in your fleet.
You should also know, that during five minutes of triage mode you cannot get any assistence on your ship and as much as your mates may want to help you, they can't.
Now the capital shield booster I will boost 7200 HP back on your shields out of triage every 10 seconds and any capacitor power relay will reduce it by 10% per module.
This might not sound much but on a capital ship those numbers multiply very quickly. That is way I would use capacitor flux coils. Those reduce your capacitor but will recharge them faster and by judging from my tests on the test server, I would like to keep it that way.
A shield boost amplifier II will put the boost HP up to 10100 I believe and will slow down it's demise a bit further.
On the field any minute counts for you and your ship mates.


Actually Meta 4 Cap Power Relays have a lower shield boost penalty than T2 and the penalty is also stacking penalized. So it won't reduce your tank that drastically.


Bolded a very important part.

On top of this, the current tank of a triage chimera is on par with that of an Archon. A triage Chimmy would be OP if it had the same cap recharge as it has currently and no boost reduction. You are fitting a triage carrier incorrectly if you run into the problems that you claim you will.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#14 - 2012-01-25 00:02:32 UTC
Demon Azrakel wrote:


Actually Meta 4 Cap Power Relays have a lower shield boost penalty than T2 and the penalty is also stacking penalized. So it won't reduce your tank that drastically.


Bolded a very important part.

On top of this, the current tank of a triage chimera is on par with that of an Archon. A triage Chimmy would be OP if it had the same cap recharge as it has currently and no boost reduction. You are fitting a triage carrier incorrectly if you run into the problems that you claim you will.[/quote]

If "OP" means overpowered, I don't get it.
When I say something is overpowered then I talk about of firepower, speed and tank.
A triaged carrier will do zero harm to you or any of your mates on a field. Any Caldari ship who fits a shield booster may want to improve a shield boost per cycle by fitting that module.
An armor tanked ship may fit trimark pumps or nanobot accelerators which do the same and don't even need a medium slot or a low slot.
And my point still is that it should be able to fit that module.
If you think this is overpowered because you would have to shoot a few rounds more to take it down, I still don't get it.
There is a counter to a carrier, which in commonly known as supercarrier or titan. Both of them will simply not care if I have a shield boost amplifier on my carrier or not.

And for the last time, YES if you fit named capital modules this fit will do perfectly without any problems. The cost of that fitting on the other hand will cost more then the carrier + premium insurance itself.
And after some insurance changes, you don't even get 70% of what a carrier cost back from that insurance. I like to call that a pricy investment.
If you would take meta 4 modules for capacitor recharge it may work, I cannot answer that because meta 4 modules tend to be more expensive then the tech2 variants and I haven't tried them out yet.
I can image that all the alliances are swimming in isk and let themselves print isk with all thier bots and such, but I wouldn't even think of undocking in the first place.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

CaptainFalcon07
Scarlet Weather Rhapsody
#15 - 2012-01-25 00:51:59 UTC  |  Edited by: CaptainFalcon07
:facepalm: Meta 4 are a few million, if you can afford the carrier and the modules, the meta 4's barely cost anything to you.
Demon Azrakel
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2012-01-25 02:31:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Demon Azrakel
elitatwo wrote:


If "OP" means overpowered, I don't get it.
When I say something is overpowered then I talk about of firepower, speed and tank.
A triaged carrier will do zero harm to you or any of your mates on a field. Any Caldari ship who fits a shield booster may want to improve a shield boost per cycle by fitting that module.
An armor tanked ship may fit trimark pumps or nanobot accelerators which do the same and don't even need a medium slot or a low slot.
And my point still is that it should be able to fit that module.
If you think this is overpowered because you would have to shoot a few rounds more to take it down, I still don't get it.
There is a counter to a carrier, which in commonly known as supercarrier or titan. Both of them will simply not care if I have a shield boost amplifier on my carrier or not.

And for the last time, YES if you fit named capital modules this fit will do perfectly without any problems. The cost of that fitting on the other hand will cost more then the carrier + premium insurance itself.
And after some insurance changes, you don't even get 70% of what a carrier cost back from that insurance. I like to call that a pricy investment.
If you would take meta 4 modules for capacitor recharge it may work, I cannot answer that because meta 4 modules tend to be more expensive then the tech2 variants and I haven't tried them out yet.
I can image that all the alliances are swimming in isk and let themselves print isk with all thier bots and such, but I wouldn't even think of undocking in the first place.


I was implying you are completely off base. The premier shield triage carrier should be compared to the premier armor triage carrier. In that respect, until recently, the only real difference between the two was that the Chimera was ******* hard to fit. If you were able to fit a Chimera with comparable cap recharge to an Archon with the same number of slots devoted to tank (which you are more able to do now) without using capacitor power relay, the tank would be significantly higher than that of an Archon (this is where OP comes in). By fitting capacitor power relays, you reduce your tank to be similar to that of the Archon.

Also, Trimarks and nanobot accelerators? Really? You do realize that (a) the chimera can use the shield equivalent (Field Extenders and Operational Solidifiers), (b) it costs a rig slot (CCCs should be inserted here, amirite?) to fit those (significantly less effective) modules (rig slots ain't free, kiddo), and (c) nanobot accelerators, auxillary nano pumps, capacitor safeguards, and operational solidifiers do not work on capital mods, right?

You have just revealed your ignorance about the ships and modules that you are arguing about.

The Chimera still needs more CPU by my reckoning. However, I have not had a great amount of time to look at the fits in pyfa because the fitting changes have not come through. (TIL hitting F5 does not make a new pyfa build come through...)

At the end of the day, I do not see how this is a Chimera nerf (Topic: The capital shield tranporter buff or why it is another Chimera nerf thread).

Also, why the **** are you having trouble spending a couple mil on meta 4 capacitor modules and buying a triage carrier at the same time. If you cannot afford 10 mil for your low slots, then you should not be flying any battleship, much less a capital.

EDIT: The fits that I am interested in fit, but the cheaper equivalents still have issues fitting. (My personal choice for a four slot tank Chimera is both very expensive and uses 99.37% of CPU)

EDIT2: I do not see the reason to fit 2x energy transfers on a triage carrier, 1 would be enough. There is where I really run into CPU issues.
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#17 - 2012-01-25 23:18:57 UTC
If you had read my post completely, maybe you would get what my feedback is all about.

I remember telling you that my experiences with the Chimera are from the test server Singularity. My Chimera fitting costs 16.000 isk there.

Since my corporation is not a member of any alliance, I cannot give my impressions from the live server and that would also be the wrong forum for that, won't it?

I also remember you that that is the test server feedback forum, not the "features and ideas" forum.

In addition to that I was stating that the Chimera has a lack of powergrid to fit 2x captial shield transfers and 2x capital energy transfers without an additional module to make it fit.

And my hidden agenda behind my feedback here still is, that a ship bonus for modules would imply that you would be able to fit those modules without worrying about cpu or powergrid at all.

If I wanted a fitting advice for any ship, I would ask for one.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever

Roll Sizzle Beef
Space Mutiny
#18 - 2012-01-25 23:25:39 UTC
elitatwo wrote:
that a ship bonus for modules would imply that you would be able to fit those modules without worrying about cpu or powergrid at all.


With that vein of thinking, because AF now have a MWD bonus. All fits must have and support MWD right?
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#19 - 2012-01-26 00:25:56 UTC
Roll Sizzle Beef wrote:
elitatwo wrote:
that a ship bonus for modules would imply that you would be able to fit those modules without worrying about cpu or powergrid at all.


With that vein of thinking, because AF now have a MWD bonus. All fits must have and support MWD right?

yes
Demon Azrakel
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#20 - 2012-01-26 12:31:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Demon Azrakel
Naomi Knight wrote:
Roll Sizzle Beef wrote:
elitatwo wrote:
that a ship bonus for modules would imply that you would be able to fit those modules without worrying about cpu or powergrid at all.


With that vein of thinking, because AF now have a MWD bonus. All fits must have and support MWD right?

yes


And a Hyperion should be able to fit 8 Cormack's Neutron Blaster Cannons (they are bonused, after all), 2x Chelm's Cap Boosters (requirements for an active repping blaster Hyperion as much as a Triage Module is a requirement for a triage carrier...), and 2 (or six, by your logic) X-type LARs (also bonused)?

On the original topic, your logic suggests that you should be bitching about not being able to fit 4x cap transfers, not two.

I mean, really, by your logic, all ships should be able to fit a full rack of the largest bonused modules as well as any other unbonused modules that aid them. Your logic at the very least suggests that you should be able to fit 5x 425s on a cyclone and 3x hams with an x-large shield booster, two invuls, a shield boost amp, cap boosters, DCU, several gyros....
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