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Aivonen, the Truth
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Jowen Datloran
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#21 - 2012-01-23 14:15:34 UTC
Hilato Talkori wrote:
Ishukone and Hyasyoda's citizens are being abused and taken advantage of by Provists under the command of Tibus Heth.

Ah, interesting.

Must have missed the news on this piece. Or any rumors of that sort, even.

Mr. Science & Trade Institute, EVE Online Lorebook 

Alena Strazinka
Vapautusliike
#22 - 2012-01-23 15:57:17 UTC
Jowen Datloran wrote:
Hilato Talkori wrote:
Ishukone and Hyasyoda's citizens are being abused and taken advantage of by Provists under the command of Tibus Heth.

Ah, interesting.

Must have missed the news on this piece. Or any rumors of that sort, even.


Mr. Datloran, I can understand your confusion. The major media does not report on these events because they cannot penetrate the military cordons that are created by both militias, FDU and State Protectorate.

As a result, many people are unaware of the vast atrocities that have taken place during the Empyrean war in the past two years.

However, I can state with certainty that this situation in the Ishaga constellation and Aivonen is very real, as I reported last week. And the continued persecution of Ishukone and Hyasyoda citizens across the State continues apace.

If you seek 'rumors', here is one that Vapautusliike has gleemed from our sources within the state: Tibus Heth intends to ban all Ishukone citizens from enrolling in the Science and Trade Institute. This would apply to Ishukone citizens currently enrolled, as well.

To those that defend Heth's actions, please tell me again how Tibus Heth is beneficial to the long term prosperity of the State?
Desiderya
Blue Canary
Watch This
#23 - 2012-01-23 16:12:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Desiderya
Hilato Talkori wrote:

The support Tibus Heth has is a direct result of the fear of what he might do without that support. What megacorporation wishes to go against the 'State.' Tibus Heth has control of the State Protectorate and the Caldari Navy, why would any of these corporations want to risk everything they have built?

Yes, Tibus Heth helped in the reclaiming of Caldari Prime, and for that I am grateful. However, without Tibus Heth, we would have done it eventually, his actions only hastened it. As you even admit, Tibus Heth has overstepped his reponsibilities.

As far as your claim of doing this during wartime. To let this continue for an unknown length of time is asking for us to let the State be destroyed. I would venture to say that the only reason Tibus Heth has stayed in power this long is because he has maintained the war with the Federation. It helps him keep the balance of power shifted towards himself. As wurblewind stated earlier, with the threat of the Nation already here, it is time that we get rid of Heth so that we can unite to deal with the more important threat.


It would be a stretch to claim that Heth's support stems from the fear of his disapproval. If that would've been the case he would never have gotten into power. He has not changed since then, only his successes have dwindled somewhat. Which is no wonder in a war - along the rules of the militia act - that cannot be won by either side.

You are certainly correct that wartime strengthens his position, but that is merely a necessity. Internal conflicts are to be solved in an enviroment of massive external threat. Asking for a rebellion is nothing less than asking for the State to loose this war, and this is something we simply can not afford. I will gladly buy the sovereignity - and wellbeing - of our people at the cost of letting Heth continue with inconveniencing and bullying Ishukone personnel. While this is a sorry affair it doesn't come out of nowhere and I'd judge it as mismanagement on Reppola's side. If 'the greater good' means appeasing Heth for what it's worth he shouldn't have hesitated to suck it up.

Alena Strizanka wrote:

To those that defend Heth's actions, please tell me again how Tibus Heth is beneficial to the long term prosperity of the State?

I'm not going to defend any possible measures against Ishukone, but in general you should ask around on the stations, the planets. While it is - and should stay - a vital part of the State, the State is bigger than Ishukone. I might add that Ishukone employees have reaped the benefits of the new meritocracy as well.

Ruthlessness is the kindness of the wise.
Jowen Datloran
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#24 - 2012-01-23 16:21:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Jowen Datloran
Alena Strazinka wrote:


If you seek 'rumors', here is one that Vapautusliike has gleemed from our sources within the state: Tibus Heth intends to ban all Ishukone citizens from enrolling in the Science and Trade Institute. This would apply to Ishukone citizens currently enrolled, as well.

Haven't heard about this one either. You would think they at least could inform the guy who have been spending 9½ years of his life promoting the corporation about such dramatic changes. You aren't just pulling my leg here, are you?

Oh, by the way, do you have any time period for when these things should have transpired?

Mr. Science & Trade Institute, EVE Online Lorebook 

Alena Strazinka
Vapautusliike
#25 - 2012-01-23 16:40:04 UTC
Jowen Datloran wrote:
Alena Strazinka wrote:


If you seek 'rumors', here is one that Vapautusliike has gleemed from our sources within the state: Tibus Heth intends to ban all Ishukone citizens from enrolling in the Science and Trade Institute. This would apply to Ishukone citizens currently enrolled, as well.

Haven't heard about this one either. You would think they at least could inform the guy who have been spending 9½ years of his life promoting the corporation about such dramatic changes. You aren't just pulling my leg here, are you?

Oh, by the way, do you have any time period for when these things should have transpired?


And why would Tibus Heth tell you? You're a capsuleer, and Heth's hate of capsuleers is well known. And the Provists don't need the permission of anyone to conduct their crack downs or restrictions. Their will is law in the State; and that is precisely what we're fighting against.
Hilato Talkori
Vigilans Aeternum
#26 - 2012-01-23 17:19:58 UTC
Desiderya wrote:
Hilato Talkori wrote:

The support Tibus Heth has is a direct result of the fear of what he might do without that support. What megacorporation wishes to go against the 'State.' Tibus Heth has control of the State Protectorate and the Caldari Navy, why would any of these corporations want to risk everything they have built?

Yes, Tibus Heth helped in the reclaiming of Caldari Prime, and for that I am grateful. However, without Tibus Heth, we would have done it eventually, his actions only hastened it. As you even admit, Tibus Heth has overstepped his reponsibilities.

As far as your claim of doing this during wartime. To let this continue for an unknown length of time is asking for us to let the State be destroyed. I would venture to say that the only reason Tibus Heth has stayed in power this long is because he has maintained the war with the Federation. It helps him keep the balance of power shifted towards himself. As wurblewind stated earlier, with the threat of the Nation already here, it is time that we get rid of Heth so that we can unite to deal with the more important threat.


It would be a stretch to claim that Heth's support stems from the fear of his disapproval. If that would've been the case he would never have gotten into power. He has not changed since then, only his successes have dwindled somewhat. Which is no wonder in a war - along the rules of the militia act - that cannot be won by either side.

You are certainly correct that wartime strengthens his position, but that is merely a necessity. Internal conflicts are to be solved in an enviroment of massive external threat. Asking for a rebellion is nothing less than asking for the State to loose this war, and this is something we simply can not afford. I will gladly buy the sovereignity - and wellbeing - of our people at the cost of letting Heth continue with inconveniencing and bullying Ishukone personnel. While this is a sorry affair it doesn't come out of nowhere and I'd judge it as mismanagement on Reppola's side. If 'the greater good' means appeasing Heth for what it's worth he shouldn't have hesitated to suck it up.

First, I seriously doubt that the State's victory against the Federation will not be affected by the success of our cause. If anything, the unifying reforming of the State would permit us to better coordinate against the Federation. Furthermore, it is interesting to note that the only reason the peace treaty between the State and Federation was broken, was due to Tibus Heth's strike on the Federation to retake Caldari Prime.

To address the issue of Tibus Heth, it is more than his disapproval. At this point, Tibus Heth maintains control of the militia and navy, as previously stated. This position, in addition to the fact that Ishukone and Hyasyoda would be vastly outnumbered by the other megacorporations who do decide to side with Heth, further solidifies my suggestion that they do not have the capabilities to stand against Heth without help. This is the reason that Vigilans Aeternum is supporting the cause to dethrone Tibus Heth.
Jowen Datloran
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#27 - 2012-01-23 18:08:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Jowen Datloran
Alena Strazinka wrote:
Jowen Datloran wrote:
...


And why would Tibus Heth tell you? You're a capsuleer, and Heth's hate of capsuleers is well known. And the Provists don't need the permission of anyone to conduct their crack downs or restrictions. Their will is law in the State; and that is precisely what we're fighting against.

I just passed the question around in STI's corporate channel and nobody there have heard anything about Ishukone citizens being banned or expelled from the capsuleer program, the one you claim Mr. Heth is hating. On the contrary, some claimed to be of Ishukone citizenship and a larger group was in general support of the Ishukone Corporation.

So either capsuleers are excepted from and kept in the dark on these wild claims of yours, or this is the worst kind of media manipulation I've seen since the last news report from Gutter Press.

Mr. Science & Trade Institute, EVE Online Lorebook 

Hilato Talkori
Vigilans Aeternum
#28 - 2012-01-23 18:53:39 UTC
Jowen Datloran wrote:
Alena Strazinka wrote:
Jowen Datloran wrote:
...


And why would Tibus Heth tell you? You're a capsuleer, and Heth's hate of capsuleers is well known. And the Provists don't need the permission of anyone to conduct their crack downs or restrictions. Their will is law in the State; and that is precisely what we're fighting against.

I just passed the question around in STI's corporate channel and nobody there have heard anything about Ishukone citizens being banned or expelled from the capsuleer program, the one you claim Mr. Heth is hating. On the contrary, some claimed to be of Ishukone citizenship and a larger group was in general support of the Ishukone Corporation.

So either capsuleers are excepted from and kept in the dark on these wild claims of yours, or this is the worst kind of media manipulation I've seen since the last news report from Gutter Press.

I am not familiar with the information regarding these rumors, but it should be noted that Mrs. Strazinka did in fact point out that the rumors suggested that Tibus Heth "intends to ban all Ishukone citizens from enrolling in the Science and Trade Institute." This is spoken in the future tense, meaning that it has not already happened. Furthermore, as a rumor, there is less backing to such a claim.
Jowen Datloran
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#29 - 2012-01-23 19:03:24 UTC
I'd say, a bit vague to incite a full scale rebellion against the Provists.

Mr. Science & Trade Institute, EVE Online Lorebook 

Silas Vitalia
Doomheim
#30 - 2012-01-23 19:03:49 UTC
If, and that's a skeptical "If" Ishukone employees are being "harassed" then obviously they are doing something wrong.

I'd wager some manor of disloyalty towards Heth and his great strides forward for the State.

Sabik now, Sabik forever
Hilato Talkori
Vigilans Aeternum
#31 - 2012-01-23 19:11:25 UTC
Jowen Datloran wrote:
I'd say, a bit vague to incite a full scale rebellion against the Provists.

Of course, the State falling apart, our people being oppressed and conscripted, forced into a war that Tibus Heth started, indeed, there is little reason to change that. After all, he is Tibus Heth, and he is great.

Right....

Silas Vitalia wrote:
I'd wager some manor of disloyalty towards Heth and his great strides forward for the State.

As previously stated, the Ishukone people are being conscripted into Heth's war. The situation on Aivonen VI is certainly not an isolated incident. Tibus Heth has transformed the State into his own dictatorship that he rules however he deems fit.

It is up to us to stand for what is right and to tear Heth down from his throne.
Silas Vitalia
Doomheim
#32 - 2012-01-23 19:21:36 UTC
Hilato Talkori wrote:

the Ishukone people are being conscripted into Heth's war. .


You mean the State's war, of which you are all State citizens are required to do your parts.

Heth has the support of the populace, and I imagine gives little credence to what a few traitorous Capsuleers like yourself think of him.

I believe the Federation would be happy to have you, perhaps you should switch flags and get it over with?

Sabik now, Sabik forever
Jowen Datloran
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#33 - 2012-01-23 19:27:46 UTC
I certainly feel no facts presented that discredit Director Heth in any way. It's all too vague speculation on events that apparently have transpired without anybody, except one guy, knows about it. And this guy is some mothers grand cousins best friend. Or it is events that haven't transpired yet with no indication of ever will.

This a poor Guristas joke if anything.

Mr. Science & Trade Institute, EVE Online Lorebook 

Hilato Talkori
Vigilans Aeternum
#34 - 2012-01-23 19:28:29 UTC
Silas Vitalia wrote:
Hilato Talkori wrote:

the Ishukone people are being conscripted into Heth's war. .


You mean the State's war, of which you are all State citizens are required to do your parts.

Heth has the support of the populace, and I imagine gives little credence to what a few traitorous Capsuleers like yourself think of him.

I believe the Federation would be happy to have you, perhaps you should switch flags and get it over with?

Started by Heth's actions.

Heth does not have the support of the populace, he rules only because the war gives him leverage.

As far as defecting to the Federation, I am absolutely offended by the insinuation that I would betray my State. The State is what I am doing this for, as Tibus Heth's actions have put it's very existence into jeopardy. The only way to serve the State is to protect it from Tibus Heth.
Jowen Datloran
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#35 - 2012-01-23 19:32:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Jowen Datloran
On the topic on who started what, let us not forget who crashed a mothership into whose station.

No support among the Caldari population for Heth you say? Ok, I guess it is now obvious to everybody you're just making this stuff up.

Sheesh, loyalty beyond self interest sure has poor growing conditions among capsuleers.

Mr. Science & Trade Institute, EVE Online Lorebook 

Hilato Talkori
Vigilans Aeternum
#36 - 2012-01-23 19:38:03 UTC
Jowen Datloran wrote:
I certainly feel no facts presented that discredit Director Heth in any way. It's all too vague speculation on events that apparently have transpired without anybody, except one guy, knows about it. And this guy is some mothers grand cousins best friend. Or it is events that haven't transpired yet with no indication of ever will.

This a poor Guristas joke if anything.

There is hard evidence supporting the claim that 'Director' Heth has conscripted Ishukone citizens into his war for his purposes. This is not simple conjecture. This is based on evidence that has since been released to the public.

Attempting to discredit me, is without a doubt the worst attempt at discrediting the evidence yet. It completely ignores the substance of the issue, and seems to be more of Heth's propoganda.
Jowen Datloran
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#37 - 2012-01-23 19:42:49 UTC
Is that it? People from all Caldari corporations have been conscripted for the war, as expected I'll add. And here I thought it was something to be worried about.

Mr. Science & Trade Institute, EVE Online Lorebook 

Leopold Caine
Stillwater Corporation
#38 - 2012-01-23 19:48:49 UTC
Hilato Talkori wrote:

Attempting to discredit me, is without a doubt the worst attempt at discrediting the evidence yet. It completely ignores the substance of the issue, and seems to be more of Heth's propoganda.


That's a sweet little tautology there.
You see, you keep throwing the word 'evidence' around very freely, chest beating and swearing into its credibility. Even if we start with a hypothesis that this 'evidence' a) exists b) isn't forged, calling lady Vitalia's and others' attempts to point out the flaws in your obvious little witch hunt as 'Heth's propaganda' is... well, rather hilarious, really.
  • Leopold Caine, Domination Malakim

Angels are never far...

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Silas Vitalia
Doomheim
#39 - 2012-01-23 20:02:47 UTC
Hilato Talkori wrote:


Heth does not have the support of the populace, he rules only because the war gives him leverage.


Heth rose to power with popular consent well before the war started. Back to school for you.

Hilato Talkori wrote:
The only way to serve the State is to protect it from Tibus Heth.


So sayeth all who would betray their nations.



Sabik now, Sabik forever
Caellach Marellus
Stormcrows
#40 - 2012-01-23 20:14:33 UTC
Silas Vitalia wrote:
Hilato Talkori wrote:


Heth does not have the support of the populace, he rules only because the war gives him leverage.


Heth rose to power with popular consent well before the war started. Back to school for you.


Clearly if anyone needs schooling, it's you for reading comprehension.

Heth may have risen to power before the war, but it's the war that keeps him there despite his support waning.

When your gut instincts tell you something is wrong, trust them. When your heart tells you something is right, ignore it, check with your brain first. Accept nothing, challenge everything.