Player Features and Ideas Discussion

I'd say there should be almost no NPC vendors/Goods.


It's very simple, supply equals demand. if there's a demand at a station someone will make it and sell it.

If you're "Stranded" on a station alone, then you should ask yourself why you got stranded, and find a way back. EVE WIS should represent EVE Space. Consequences matter.

WIS needs to be labeled as Social gameplay and avatar based exploration for FiS. The rules of EVE still need to apply so that when someone becomes a subscriber they have the correct "mindset" for EVE and can translate the lessons from walking to flying.


In many ways, I'm not opposed to expanding the Walking in Stations skill trees, I just don't know how likely CCP is to do that given it forces them to produce more and more game mechanics and such. We can come up with a hundred and one ideas for how F2Players can make money off of Pilots if allowed. Mechanics can make money doing repairs, etc, etc... but how does that BECOME a "game" in itself? How do you successfully "repair" a starship? Without making it some "mini-game" thing that focuses more on puzzle mechanics or whatever rather than the sandbox of EVE.

Many of our skills in space are pretty shallow affairs. Level 4 is sufficient and it takes between 1-4 days for most skills to reach that level. The true skills are in the players - and thus the same should be for Walking, for whatever skills are around.

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In my opinion, our REAL focus should be on what activities would keep F2Players coming back from day to day or week to week. Getting into some of the details.


My idea is that exploration sites would be the standard "action" content - where you can go and explore, alone or with a group, various ground based places. In stations, you can go down to the "Seedier" parts of the station. How much of it becomes a first person "shoot in face" content of NPCs? While how much is digging around and picking around for "lost goods" or "hack that console".

The main contention with this is a lot of it becomes themepark style, even if random - the concern with "theme park" is more about development time from my perspective - the more stories and the more "dungeons" for exploration you need to make, the more development time it takes - and very quickly they're waiting 2-3 years as though it was a new MMO title...

How do we bridge content creation without excessive reliance on "premade" content. My initial point is that the size of the sandbox IS the exploration content. Eventually, you'd visit stations to find new players and explore their "districts" which have been made more and more unique as time progresses. The ability to customize not only your estabilshment, but also influence those districts is a main link for these ideas working. I know people will take establishments to a whole crazy (hopefully good) level if given the power to do so. With the ability to create their own NPCs and script missions or things to do for other players, making and feeding EVE with their own content to a large degree. Some will be stupid, some will be funny, some will be awesome.

If you keep the average F2Players required income relatively low - then you can actually use them as a quasi cheap work force for paying players. 100,000 ISK becomes a big deal to the F2P. "Go get me 10 Hacked Computer Nodes, I'll pay 100,000 ISK" says the Player Scripted NPC in the Player Owned Establishment. But, does that now just become themepark with a player twist? or is there something more "tangible" about doing it for a player.

I agree that for the average person walking in a station it's very hard to GRASP beyond your station when you're in there. Just like for the noobie pilot sitting in his noob system, mining his first noob rock and has hardly seen a stargate, they can't comprehend how BIG it is as soon as they step out that first set of doors. It's pretty overwhelming, even as they start to "Get it".


EVE WiS should be the realm where the players have gratuitous control of that space. In and out of their "Establishments", if you're walking on a station you should have the sensation that there's something unique going on.


Now, there are a lot of stations in Empire space - and how that gets affected I'm curious to see. For example, Jita alone has more than 6 stations - how does that fit into the scheme of things? I think there's more than enough population in jita to maximize those 6 stations, but will they? Will players actually take over districts in adjacent stations to trade hubs to capitalize on it? And then, as people love to congregate will people spread out and use them, or rather, what is the incentive to spread around? Clearly - the first incentive is to be able to generate your own custom "District". Perhaps each Empire station can only have One District, forcing players to fight over or spread out in order to get the benefits of many various districts all together. This would make trade hubs more interesting based on how many stations there are in there, and how customizable these Districts are would actually allow for a lot of variance even amidst similar districts for what perks and bonuses you can get out of them.

Null Sec would be more clear cut with the number of stations out there. And I would probably say having 2 Districts in SOV owned null sec outposts would be more interesting and reinforce even more Social behavior on a single station - and getting more benefits from the limited stations out there. What does Low Security get? And, if Null and Low sec have some advantages... then what is the "risk" out there.

The concept works because all the people will naturally get attracted to where they want to go, given sufficient ability to direct their own destiny and a desire to do so.

But, how can we give them the desire (aka the Fun).

I would say give at least a minimum supply of NPC goods to stations so that at least it looks like a real station environment. Like today where some goods are still being created by the system.
I never meant NPC goods to be an alternative. For me consequences have to matter, as well. :)

It's just for the illusion of something going on at less crowded hubs/stations.
If everything was empty or only filled with NPCs walking around their scripted path you could also delete the environment on low populated/empty stations to save node resources and only enable Captain's Quarter as of now.



Well, to the content of WiS:

Leave first person shooter to Dust 514, I would not use resources on doing anything like that in EvE Online. This game is still about spaceships as the main part and they should keep going that way.

There are other ways to get people to play the station part, like many mini-games which would not interfere with the spaceship content.
Let it be poker, that holo game we saw on that very early preview many months ago, casino style environments, whatever. Maybe some kind of race and Mind Clash. There's much to implement besides combat or station exploration.

In my opinion WiS has to add something and not copy a existing concept into a new layer.

Take Sony's Free Realms for example. I know that it may not be the best example but hell...there are a lot of people playing it and paying for clothes or items for their mini games or to have access to all professions.
And never underestimate the social aspect of a game which makes people come back on its own.


Enable those players to progress in their environment by skilling WiS skills within the current systems and they keep logging in, for progression, for fun, maybe just to look good.
I guess that CCP has their skill system implemented into their engine in a way that it's not that hard to implement new skills/categories so it would only be a matter of balancing and careful decision what makes it into the game.
No super complex system has to be invented for that. Everything can be fitted into the current system as long as it uses the same or similar mechanics.

I would also not split WiS into the already active categories of high/low/null since it would create the need for even more balancing than now. ("But Highsec stations need that feature, too!"; "Fix LowSec Stations, pls"; etc...)
Leave that to the FiS mechanics.
The best way (as always only in my opinion as I do have some kind of experience with things like that and as I cannot speak for everyone else) is to add (as stated above) another aspect (social) to the game.
The community mustn't be split between those that love the WiS aspect and those that hate the WiS aspect because it withdraws resources from the actual game.
People saying they are against WiS mostly do that because they play and pay for EvE Online for the spaceships. Creating a super complex new environment withdraws resources from the actual game. Not good.


Why I am really reserved on "inovation" for WiS is that it is nearly impossible to create another game in an existing game. You should always focus on your main strength (spaceships!) with that little to medium nice to have, non mandatory feature "Oh, and we even have a working social part".

I am pretty sure that many more (me as well) dream of a full, complete universe with flying spaceships, shooting your gun on a station while running around, gambling, smuggling and much more but we have to be realistic. That cannot be achieved in the first steps and in the end this is still a game. :)

In the first steps I think of WiS in addition of a WiS-F2P concept as a new source of income for EvE's further development and a first step into the direction I would like to have this game.
It's also a chance to actually do something else while trading than sitting around on your sofa or spinning your ship, or for the times you're not in a mood to undock.
That's something that keeps players subscribing, besides further progression.
One may think "Okay...don't want to undock anymore...having no fun out in space and I'm not interested in progressing further but okay...I'm still able to waste some money on Mind Clash and have a talk to my mates. Nah...will just subscribe one further month".
That's a reason for CCP to develop such a thing.

Hope it's clear what I try to say.

My district idea is actually based on the idea that the players would be able to "form" whatever district they wished on the slot available through poltiics.


So, a High Sec station might only have 1 District, and the players will have to coordinate or compete to make it into the district of their choice through various means of imposing force.


For example, in Jita - You'd have 1 District only

The district would be player "run" and would have a limited number of establishments available.

Now, let's say we have 2 groups of players that form coalitions. One coalition wants Jita to have a "Trade District" and the other wants them to have a "Black Market District".


In order to make that happen, they have to find ways of enforcing the type of district that they would want. I don't have any hard ideas on this - but using establishments would be a primary point - but since they're limited, there should be a way to "take over" the establishment from another player.

There could be other ways of investing into them without needing to own an establishment as well.


The establishment would just be a primary way of doing this.


So, if these 2 coalitions to control Jitas district fight over it, socially, politically, economically, then they get the perks of the district.


Let's say a Trade District reduces Broker Fees and Taxes noticeably.

Meanwhile, a Black Market District allows the sale of Boosters and other illegal goods and makes you immune to player "enforced" interaction - perhaps allows for certain kinds of establishments not allowed in a Trade District.

So, those are 2 very profitable things for Jita in the right hands - making Jita even more unique, making player interaction even more important and making the struggle for influence even more valuable.


The districts could have almost any type of establishment, the key is how the owners of that establishment decide to influence the district through whatever means CCP makes available through game mechanics.

I don't have an issue with F2P vs P2P really. ISK definitely needs to be understated - ISK shouldn't be the end all. I think the average F2P should think 100M is a big deal, and that earning 350M+ for a PLEX is a relatively big deal.




Well, I don't think travel would be that difficult, nor should it be. They shouldn't feel trapped by the stations specifically, and that would be a negative feeling. I think there needs to be some challenge and the F2Pers could be a form of influence if put to use correctly by the system. It's not about ISK, it's also about all the different dynamics that make players valuable in EVE.




I don't think you need a mayor - you don't need a single leadership to make decisions as much as I think you need to have a dynamic "Crowd" system that reacts to the influences in the district that creates certain bonuses and parameters to be met.

If there is a "Mayor" then it would be decided by a group of people naturally choosing a leader, rather than a game mechanic structure.




One district only applies a bonus - it doesn't restrict anything else in the station. You can still have all kinds of establishments is the goal. The District would really be a focus of the players.

Think of the people who own the Establishments as the "Business Owners" of a city. They are trying to make profit, and the "city" (District) responds by providing them the benefits that they ask for. So, even if I own a Retail Store, I can promote a Black Market District, or if I run a Strip Club I can promote a Trade District. THe business owners would work together and collaborate to generate certain goals if they want, or they can be very loosely organized and not successful in generating anything at all from a District in terms of bonuses. Eventually you'd have some business owners leave, or get removed forcibly (not sure how) - and new business owners would be able to step into their place. This makes it more than just a cut and dry "I own this space" but an issue of "This Space is Political Influence". So yes, bigger parties, invested interests WOULD want to get involved and try and take over a space. That's the point, and then another group comes in to compete. Then another. And in between all this, there needs to be thing and goals for the F2Pers and the P2Pers to do, which generates content through the sandbox. What those "things to do" are a bit vague yet and need some thought for sure.

I don't think having one district is negative. You can still have retail, bars, and all kinds of establishments in a Trade District - it makes the politics of fighting for one district more valuable, and I don't think it would negatively impact anyone in particular except the power blocs not able to get everything. The bonuses should definitely be the tweaking factor that makes the system worth fighting for in the first place, otherwise without any conflicts of power, there's nothing to drive the system forward.

Part of the point of having 1 district per high sec station would be to force people to spread out a bit - that goes back to your concerns over F2Pers having some mobility. I think F2Pers should not feel trapped at all, and should have a sensation of being able to travel. The idea of Passenger transports provided by P2Pers is really just a fascination I have at the moment - I think it could really work well, but it could also end up being a pain in certain situations, of course.

Best Free to Play suggestion ever...

Link it with dust 514 make it thier hangout spot too.

Ill have to seriously sit down and read the entire novel here before I can chime in additional feedback.

You know that Blood Raider site you just scanned down? With all the ancient computers in that you need to access because you are sure there are all sorts of goodies in side?

How about having to go and pick up a hacker/scientist/archaeologist from a nearby station, transport him through low sec and drop him at the site to do his work.

That would be cool :D

Wouldn't your system kill the ability to form a block?
A power block will never be able to drive all mission runners off as they're not able to remove the agents there.

Wouldn't it be better to be able to vote as a resident and provide the ability to form a powerblock?

Let's say you own an establishment and you are resident of that station. You have your right to vote every month.
Your establishment is something like a bar with gambling and dancers and holo games in it and your customers like your bar as well as you and want to support you as they are residents there as well.
They will provide you with a vote for the district / station type that offers you the most.

Sadly this station has a very active trader who doesn't want his station to have entertainment bonuses so he flips around some money to buy himself votes for a trading spec.

That's what I find to be good EvE politics, we may not be able to shoot and melt each other while walking but we're still able to betray and get advantages wherever possible. Keeps the idea of the game, imo, and even reflects the real world very good. ;)

F2Pers, well, they might not have the big money but as you said (and I am slowly also coming to the conclusion) they will find their support, as well.




One further thing regarding player transporting:

That would be a total loss of control which should never happen in any way.
While in space you might be double webbed, scrambled, jammed and whatsoever but you are still able to tell your ship where to fly to. At least you are able to hammer your warp to button as the last chance to save your pod.
Although you only have a minimal form of control at that moment, you are still in control.

As I doubt that ship interiors will ever make it into the game as they're not even closely lore-wise for capsuleers the only way would be to let the transported guys watch the ships exterior without any form of self sov.
Ofc there might be ships nowdays that are still controled by a crew but those are NPC steered. The ship of a capsuleer has the capsule, afaik bigger ships have a crew but they are only and will always remain supernumeraries.
Creating interiors for all of those ships available would be too much work for nearly nothing.



Editing for more as there are characters left:

System as it would be designable in my opinion:

A Capsuleer has a quarter on every station. Let that be the way it is. We are semi-gods. We deserve that.

Add the ability to buy/rent a advanced quarter at one station at a time leading to you becoming a resident of that station.

That opens up the ability to vote for the station's specialization once a month.

Becoming a resident should also enable the ability of renting a lot for an establishment (one lot per player as it will most likely be the way "first come, first serve")

The multiple influences were just ideas for different options, not all the ones I would implement, or at least without thought.


The influence wouldn't have to be linear application.


If you generate a value of interest based on different criteria, then you can determine which influences are the most valuable.


For example...

Your establishment would generate influence based on how many people come in and use it.

So if your establishment is not successful, it might only generate 10 influence.

If the population of the station is high, then you have to overcome the powerbloc of voting, but not all stations will have a lot of residents, so for some stations, resident influence is very low. If for each resident you generate 1 influence per body as a block of votes, then that will actually vary depending on how many people reside in that station.

For example : You have 100 people living in your station, whatever the majority decides, 100 influence is applied in the direction desired by the population. So, even if only 55 people vote for a Trade District, 100 points is applied (electoral system, more or less). This can be a direct vote, but I like that the station residents get 1 wholesome vote based on the majority rather than breaking it down - but we can debate that all day.


The influence generated by activities in the station (i.e. mission runners, industrialists, etc) would honestly benefit the people who don't want to be too involved in the system, but would be a kind of "passive" influence, which I think should be taken into account. At the same time, it shouldn't be a VERY relevant influence that it overturns everything else.


If you think about why I'm proposing it in this fashion is pretty simple...


If you look at some low population systems, you end up with almost no residents to end up "Voting" - so the influence has to fall on some other factors - even if not totally in control by the players. So, establishment owners can easily dictate what their district is doing because they don't have to compete with residents or other influences (and competitive influences amongst themselves).

Meanwhile, there could be some stations with almost no resident population from F2Pers but a lot of P2P mission runners who don't care about stations. They generate influence on the area, it's not enough to necessarily stop a player attempted take over of the station district, but enough to generate enough passive influence that there is SOME influence on the district to be something - creating a station district that represents the forces at work there (rather than a bland and empty station).


Essentially, I see something where each influence generated is composited, and not on its own is enough to make a total take over the district, if that makes sense - it also relies on the AMOUNT of interest generated.


A very active establishment can generate more influence than all the residents in a station for example. And that is the residents own fault! They should boycott the establishments if they don't want to give it so much influence over their lives.

Meanwhile, if a mission hub is super active, it should generate enough influence that Establishments and Residents should make a concerted effort if they want to change the districts influence by the passive influence of that station.


Does that make sense? It allows for more dynamic experiences than relying only on player voting (experience shows individual humans care little for voting democracy anyways - too much thought). So, there has to be other factors to fall back on to allow manipulation of the environment, and really would be the most successful to allow various groups to be involved. Corporations today have MASSIVE amounts of influence, much more than any individual or set of voting blocks do - able to push legislation through, etc without needing to appeal to the voters themselves.


Chew on the idea that all stations will not be equal in population or activity type, and that in some places low residents voting influence makes it easier (And thus more appealing) for Establishment Owners to want to establish their power there because they have less competition over their ability to exert influence.

I think it'll make sense for you then.

I totally agree that the passive influence should be minimal from activities - I think it is also something hard to "metric" correctly, and really could be argued all day.


It can be easily put aside in favor of better options - and I'm totally cool with that. It was just an idea that things that people do in the station should probably dictate what the station thinks is important.

There is definitely something important about the idea that "if you live out of this station, you should really think about setting up a residence to have a say in what happens" - and I agree with that.

I'm of the oppinion that there should only be two classes available to a player:

1. Licensed Pilot (Paying).
2. Unlicensed Pilot (Not Paying).

A Licensed Pilot should be able to do anything a Capsuleer does, and choose to hang around in the Unlincensed areas. That alone already promotes the whole "Plex up! Join in space you mongering idiot."

About the whole adventuring in space. Stations, unless they are being invaded, are not star-wars-y / babylon-y places, unless they happen to be at the center of some refugee crisis. In reality, these things should be air-tight in terms of security and mutual survival.

Therefore, I propose, as simply this, for Unlicensed Pilots:

Allow them to deal with operations such as docking up NPC haulers and order/cargo hauling inside the station. Allow them to replenish a station's repair/medical/whatever systems. The player then receives a payment equal to the total isk made by the repair/medical bays proportional to the amount of money spent, on that station, per day. As such, lets say you have a character working in a Mission hub. Repairs, might be heavilly in order for some players, and as such, the nanite paste used by the station's automated services, needs to be replenished. This is similar to how industry is made, except players can only acess the console every now and then. Namely, when is empty. This has the added bonus of allowing players who run multiple accounts to repair themselves, and maybe costing them less isk.

That way, you have a dwindling resource (station fuel for dedicated shops), and a reward for providinga service (payment). You then need to spend that payment to maybe buy air, food, etc. If its free to play or paying player, its irrelevant, but I don't see a necessity for skills (in fact, a player might enjoy working on station, but he might also use the Industry-related skills to provide himself with higer ratio of sucess or reward, which in itself, promotes PLEX'ing up).

Follow that up with allowing players to board a space-suit and perform maintenance tasks on NPC ships (Capsuleer ships get repaired instantly, and if using the before proposed sytem, they already get paid for replenishin the nanite paste), allowing players to just move around a ship's hull. Maybe jump or what not, nothing fancy.

Lastly, and more contetuously, allow players to fly a Simulator for Spaceships in Space, but witha twist.

They can only fly the newbie ships. Allow them to shoot at each other, say at a "special unacessible system suspiciously textured like the Matrix", using their civilian modules and free ships.