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Ask me about "The CSM" Q&A

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Author
Myxx
The Scope
#81 - 2012-01-25 07:59:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Myxx
Seleene wrote:
Myxx wrote:
Your thoughts on the ultrabear who abhors conflict at any and all costs and wants pvp to be opt-out? Is this a problem for EVE?


Play a different game. That may sound harsh, but PVP is part of EVE. Be it in space, the market or whatever, that's just the way it has always been. It's what makes EVE... 'work'. Just to be clear - I don't go out of my way to grief random people. I'm not talking about dudes that get mauled in low-sec as anyone that makes the jump to 0.4 and below even gets a warning message about it. I mean stuff like I've never suicide ganked in Empire and I've never even done the 'Hulkageddon' thing. Some players derive a form of maniacal glee from that sort of thing but I don't. I do enjoy competing against other people though and have spent my entire time in EVE doing so. Allowing players to "opt out" of what essentially makes EVE what it is... no. Then it's not EVE anymore.

Myxx wrote:
What should/could be done with regards to it and war mechanics?


I would like to see the war dec mechanics evolve and have additional layers added for both sides of the equation. There is currently no in-game functionality that enforces a 'surrender' or allows for any sort of negotiated settlement of a dispute. I said this in an earlier post but even Master of Orion had this back in 1993. Or are you asking me if I think no one should be able to 'declare war' ever?


Thats exactly what I wanted to know, thank you. Something you might think about is the detrimental effect that gaming the system can have from either side of it. Example being docking games in highsec, or wardec shield alliances. I covered that in the link I've provided, but its stuff to think about. I'd personally like to see more ways to hit people in the economic wallet with regards to wars. War doesn't just have to be shooting people in the face.
Seleene
Body Count Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
#82 - 2012-01-25 08:05:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Seleene
Bloodpetal wrote:
Right, I know there's some big challenges coming up ahead for CCP, but I think this is the time to put the dev time into making SOV into something more sophisticated. As I wrote in another post, the days of EVEs "Pre-Industrial, Exploration and Resource and hunter gatherer" society is a bit behind us. We're in the industrial age, so to speak, and the game has to accommodate a more sophisticated level of gameplay and structure. There is only so much "space" you can keep adding for expansion.

Players have conquered EVE much like the Steamboat and Airplane helped us conquer the world - it's time to focus on developing the tools for players to wage industrial age warfare and politics.


That's a very interesting analogy, and quite apt in some areas.

As for making SOV more 'sophisticated', that was the intent of Dominion. Multiple objectives, less structure grind, 'farms and fields' to raze, moon-goo re-balancing.... The old system was nuked and a new foundation was poured but no walls were ever put up so there could be no roof and no furniture, etc...

TLDR - CCP Soundwave knows what needs to be done and what players want. How far he and his team can go with it remains to be seen but I'm more confident now than I was a year ago that we might finally see Dominion 'finished' or at least on the way there before the end of this year. Obviously, seeing as how I worked on it previously and watched it all crumble prior to release, I have a vested interest in this and want to make sure this happens.

Bloodpetal wrote:
I'm surprised Titans external docking would be that complicated overall. Not that I'm an expert by any means. Simply being able to click on the outpost service, say "Dock" and then freezing the titan into place and then allowing the player to get off onto the station.


It's come up before and I got cursed at by the programmers for suggesting it at the time. Nerf gun rounds were involved as well. Suffice to say, there is a fair bit of complication involved and it's not something I expect to see happen.

Bloodpetal wrote:
The new wave of resources and Devs at CCP have been impressing me so far, so I'm hoping that they review some of these options and go, "it's time to make these happen."


My hope is that we will see things that I haven't through of yet, and they will be better than we expect. Optimism seems to be in short supply with a lot of folks but I've got JUST enough left to see me until the 2012 winter expansion. Cool

2004-2008: Mercenary Coalition Boss

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thoth rothschild
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#83 - 2012-01-25 11:36:38 UTC
Hiya :D


Could you please poke ccp a little bit more with "lack of communication and netiquette" .

Starting one or two multiple threats and asking for feadback and discussion in a test server trheat should involve a moderation by the originator of that threat or at least some smalltalk responses.

it's more a matter of nitiquette than communication but there still need to be imporvement and less fear of the player responses.

Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#84 - 2012-01-25 11:45:43 UTC
If one of the original objects of Dominion was to reduce structure short/rep grind in sov 0.0 (a noble goal), then why did the CSM advocate adding stucture grinding to NPC 0.0?

Proposing the use of what is perhaps the single most-loathed mechanism in the entire game to try and solve any problem deserves shooting with something much stickier and stinkier than nerf rounds IMO.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Seleene
Body Count Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
#85 - 2012-01-25 13:16:26 UTC
thoth rothschild wrote:
Hiya :D


Could you please poke ccp a little bit more with "lack of communication and netiquette" .

Starting one or two multiple threats and asking for feadback and discussion in a test server trheat should involve a moderation by the originator of that threat or at least some smalltalk responses.

it's more a matter of nitiquette than communication but there still need to be imporvement and less fear of the player responses.



...not quite sure what you mean here. Could you give some examples?

Malcanis wrote:
If one of the original objects of Dominion was to reduce structure short/rep grind in sov 0.0 (a noble goal), then why did the CSM advocate adding stucture grinding to NPC 0.0?

Proposing the use of what is perhaps the single most-loathed mechanism in the entire game to try and solve any problem deserves shooting with something much stickier and stinkier than nerf rounds IMO.


Which 'addition' are you talking about here? Blowing up stations? The new customs offices?

2004-2008: Mercenary Coalition Boss

2007-2010: CCP Game Designer | 2011-2013: CSM6 Delegate & CSM7 Chairman

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Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#86 - 2012-01-25 13:17:31 UTC
He said NPC 0.0, i.e. disabling the station services in NPC space.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat

Seleene
Body Count Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
#87 - 2012-01-25 13:27:38 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
He said NPC 0.0, i.e. disabling the station services in NPC space.


Gah! Missed that.

I think I've been pretty clear on why I want players to be able to affect and deal with NPC factions. Insofar as the 'structure grind goes', I don't understand why everyone assumes it HAS to be the same as it is now. If CCP turns around and nerfs all the HP on station services by 90% (meaning they can be killed and repaired really fast), that's less of a grind. If you can cut a deal with an NPC faction for benefit or detriment that affects those same services, that's not so much of a grind either.

As a side note, if I could blow a station to smithereens, the 'grind' wouldn't bother me so much either. Twisted

I'm not opposed at all to shooting stationary objects in space so long as I don't have to shoot the same ones OVER AND OVER again and there is some kind of tangible result / expectation for doing so. Regardless, there is more than one path to it and I'm not advocating ZOMG SHOOTING STRUCTURES IS AMAZING LET'S ADD MORE. Smile

2004-2008: Mercenary Coalition Boss

2007-2010: CCP Game Designer | 2011-2013: CSM6 Delegate & CSM7 Chairman

2011-2015: Pandemic Legionnaire

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Karthwritte
Trouble Seekers Incorporated
#88 - 2012-01-25 16:24:20 UTC
We all agree this is the year for combat in EVE. War & Combat its the first fix priority, but what you would recomend as a CSM to go next after all of it is enjoyable again?

PD: Its a very open question but please elaborate a lot
Seleene
Body Count Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
#89 - 2012-01-25 18:20:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Seleene
Karthwritte wrote:
We all agree this is the year for combat in EVE. War & Combat its the first fix priority, but what you would recomend as a CSM to go next after all of it is enjoyable again?

PD: Its a very open question but please elaborate a lot


Let me preface this by saying that I'm not sure some of the things 'wrong' with combat in EVE can be fixed without tweaks to other systems. Assuming that happens, and I'm including everything from null-sec sov to a Factional Warfare re-vamp to looking at high-sec war dec mechanics (yeah, there's a lot of things that need fixin'!), the thing I would most like to see is a complete overhaul of EVE's industrial, resource and exploration system.

I'm a builder at heart. When I play strategy games like Total Annihilation or the old Master of Orion stuff, even Shogun2, I tend to work toward building things as big and 'upgraded' as possible before sending my armies out into the world and conquering it. I like making something out of nothing, big things out of small things, etc... In EVE, I have probably spent just as much time building everything from cruise missiles to Titans over the years just so I could say I'd done it.

I'll bullet point a few obvious things and they should be familiar as everyone has been screaming about them for years:

  • New, dead regions of space waiting to be built-up / exploited

  • Region-specific resources

  • Dynamic resource allocation

  • Improved mining / Comet mining / planetary ring mining, etc...
  • (as a caveat to this, I'd like to see mining become something that requires player interaction to some extent so bots are taken out of the equation as much as possible)

  • New probing / scanning mechanics

  • Finite resources of rare resources (moon goo)

  • Massive scale construction (stargates, etc...)

This is stuff just off the top of my head so don't treat it as anything even remotely resembling the beginning or end of what I'd want to see. One of the things I enjoyed most about being at CCP and working on Apocrypha was creating Wormholes. The sense of wonder and danger had been missing from EVE for so long; for the first time since the beginning of the game, we managed to re-capture some of that feeling, while also adding new stuff (T3) that made the risk worthwhile. I would challenge CCP to do that on an even larger scale.

Fix the fighting and then give us new and improved things to fight over! Cool

2004-2008: Mercenary Coalition Boss

2007-2010: CCP Game Designer | 2011-2013: CSM6 Delegate & CSM7 Chairman

2011-2015: Pandemic Legionnaire

2015- : Mercenary Coalition Boss

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Karthwritte
Trouble Seekers Incorporated
#90 - 2012-01-25 18:43:12 UTC
Seleene wrote:

I'll bullet point a few obvious things and they should be familiar as everyone has been screaming about them for years:

  • New, dead regions of space waiting to be built-up / exploited

  • Region-specific resources

  • Dynamic resource allocation

  • Improved mining / Comet mining / planetary ring mining, etc...
  • (as a caveat to this, I'd like to see mining become something that requires player interaction to some extent so bots are taken out of the equation as much as possible)

  • New probing / scanning mechanics

  • Finite resources of rare resources (moon goo)

  • Massive scale construction (stargates, etc...)

This is stuff just off the top of my head so don't treat it as anything even remotely resembling the beginning or end of what I'd want to see. One of the things I enjoyed most about being at CCP and working on Apocrypha was creating Wormholes. The sense of wonder and danger had been missing from EVE for so long; for the first time since the beginning of the game, we managed to re-capture some of that feeling, while also adding new stuff (T3) that made the risk worthwhile. I would challenge CCP to do that on an even larger scale.

Fix the fighting and then give us new and improved things to fight over! Cool


Of all those points, in what order you would support them to come?
Raid'En
#91 - 2012-01-25 18:53:37 UTC
Seleene wrote:
[q
  • New, dead regions of space waiting to be built-up / exploited

  • Region-specific resources

  • Dynamic resource allocation

  • [...]

  • Massive scale construction (stargates, etc...)

would be easy from a lore perspective, by adding some new wormholes regions that could be transformed on near classical nullsec if structures are built on it
i said a lot of times i would really like some hybrid between wh and sov nullsec, but well, maybe it will happen one day ^^
Raid'En
#92 - 2012-01-25 19:02:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Raid'En
Seleene wrote:
As for making SOV more 'sophisticated', that was the intent of Dominion. Multiple objectives, less structure grind, 'farms and fields' to raze, moon-goo re-balancing.... The old system was nuked and a new foundation was poured but no walls were ever put up so there could be no roof and no furniture, etc...

how about a system near the incursion one ?

multiples objectives for small / medium ganks (but where big can if they want), that you need to complete a few times (ex : hacking local beacon, hacking stargate, hacking pocos...), and when done enough the tcu / ihub become targetable, like the incursion mothership, and the big fight can take place.
so in short lots of little small fights, then a big one.
no need to reinforce 3 times the same thing with a big fleet, and you can play with small fleets when you want.
Plutonian
Intransigent
#93 - 2012-01-25 23:48:01 UTC
Pay To Win (P2W) can be defined as paying a company (or referee) extra real life money to gain an advantage over an opponent within a competition. It is an important distinction that P2W scenarios are kept quiet on the part of the game's designers/referees. If they were to openly state that a player could pay them extra to gain an advantage, their game would generally be labeled as corrupt. For this reason, any Pay To Win actions are generally kept secretive... the referee does not want the players to know who is paying more to win, so that everyone is put under the pressure to pay more in order to stay competitive.

Currently, a situation exists within Eve which resembles this so closely that I am forced to say CCP implemented Pay To Win years ago... and got away with it.

I enjoy solo-fighting in T1 frigs. I am by no means alone in this, I encounter a great number of adversaries. After each combat I pull the logs and go through them to find how I may become a better fighter. Against one opponent, I simply could not understand how I kept losing so badly. I didn't seem to be making any mistakes. I'd been able to pull his fit from killboards, examined it closely, but could not figure out what I was doing wrong. In a conversation, he mentioned "You're never going to get anywhere until you get a boosting alt." And now I know why I cannot compete against him; he pays extra money to CCP (in the form of another account) to achieve a significant boost to his ship's capabilities. Unless I know who his alt is (difficult, if not impossible, in a crowded lowsec system) the secret is kept.

This has caused me to cease logging onto Eve. I now question every single solo fight I've ever had. Did I lose because I'm a poor pilot? Or because CCP offered my adversary an advantage in exchange for money and kept quiet?

Selene, here is my question to you: Does this not constitute Pay To Win?

I've been advising new pilots on how to find and win solo fights (in the Warfare and Tactics section of the forums). Honestly, should I tell any new player to this game that they'll have to purchase or train up a separate boosting alt to be competitive? That they're wasting their time otherwise? Given the lengthy time to master even a single race of T1 frigates, do you think many new players would stay if they knew?

I realize the boosting stuff cannot be yanked from the game at this point... it's been in too long, too many people have trained for it. Thus, the only solution I can see to resolve this is to have boosting alts appear on the killmail. It is a poor solution in my eyes, not addressing the sad fact that you have the ability to Pay To Win here.

What are your thoughts on this? And do you think I should tell that new player who is planning on devoting time and effort into solo fighting to not waste his/her time?
Alpheias
Tactical Farmers.
Pandemic Horde
#94 - 2012-01-27 00:01:23 UTC
How do you feel about bombs in hi-sec?Lol

Agent of Chaos, Sower of Discord.

Don't talk to me unless you are IQ verified and certified with three references from non-family members. Please have your certificate of authenticity on hand.

Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#95 - 2012-01-27 01:33:35 UTC
Seleene wrote:
The sense of wonder and danger had been missing from EVE for so long; for the first time since the beginning of the game, we managed to re-capture some of that feeling, while also adding new stuff (T3) that made the risk worthwhile. I would challenge CCP to do that on an even larger scale.

Fix the fighting and then give us new and improved things to fight over! Cool


When I'm in a wormhole I literally have the sensation of standing over an empty pit, waiting to fall. It's absolutely awesome the sensation captured in a wormhole (at least if you're not a WH dweller). The sensation that nothing is absolute while you're in there.

My ideas on mining are here : https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=678113#post678113

It builds on ideas that CCP used to have, I don't know what the likelihood of it really happening is, but it does involve more opportunities for player interaction than currently. There are other good ideas in that thread, just don't want to endorse any specific ones.

Where I am.

Plutonian
Intransigent
#96 - 2012-01-27 07:16:52 UTC
Or, let me put it this way...

Lets say I have an issue I feel strongly about concerning CCP and Eve. Let's say I've made posts, which are generally ignored; not so much the usual heaping derision we see in these forums, but general silence. And let's say I contact some CSM's and still get little response.

At that point, since I did work in the industry and still have contacts at gaming review sites, would I not be better off creating a "Press Blitzkrieg", bypassing the CSM entirely, and see if I can get CCP's attention directly?
Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#97 - 2012-01-27 17:12:14 UTC

Working "together" is the way to play EVE.

If you're playing solo, and someone has 2 accounts, that doesn't mean they will win - but it does mean that they can bring 2 characters where you can bring 1. This has nothing to do with "Pay 2 Win" this has to do with paying for more accounts. It also means you have 2x the amount to kill on the field.

Bring a friend to kill his boosting ship (scan it down) and then distract his other main he's trying to kill with.


You get a really nice command ship/T3 kill out of it.

Where I am.

Plutonian
Intransigent
#98 - 2012-01-27 18:35:53 UTC
Bloodpetal wrote:
If you're playing solo, and someone has 2 accounts, that doesn't mean they will win - but it does mean that they can bring 2 characters where you can bring 1. This has nothing to do with "Pay 2 Win" this has to do with paying for more accounts. It also means you have 2x the amount to kill on the field.


I'd have to argue the difference is that the information, in spite of heavily affecting the outcome of the fight, remains suppressed. For instance, if I engage his main and he brings in his alt in a Falcon, I know it. I know that I faced two opponents instead of one. But if he's boosting from his POS on the other side of the system out of scan range... I'll never know.

May I?

Then you say: Scouting plays a heavy role in combat. A Warp In Point can make the difference between victory or defeat, and that won't appear on the killmail.

And then I say: A cloaked scouting alt did not increase the armor/resistances of my enemy by 100%!

I don't have an issue with the boosting. I have an issue with it being kept secret.

Would it really be so difficult to, on my killmail after I was beaten, to simply have the lines: Killer In Gang: Yes That, alone, would be enough to tell a new player trying solo in a frigate that he wasn't beaten because he sucks and should go back to Wow, but that he actually fought 1 vs 1.5. It would also enable killboards to determine who was really solo.

Quote:
Bring a friend to kill his boosting ship (scan it down) and then distract his other main he's trying to kill with.


You get a really nice command ship/T3 kill out of it.


I dislike the 'bring more people' solution. I'm not saying it does not work... it works all too well IMO. (And you've given me an idea; perhaps if true-solo really is dead I can hang out in Amamake and kill boosting ships. ) I'd rather see the secrecy thing dropped though. Competitions should be on the up-and-up when it comes to scoring.
Seleene
Body Count Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
#99 - 2012-01-28 17:22:21 UTC
Karthwritte wrote:
Of all those points, in what order you would support them to come?


Whatever is easiest to phase in first, so long as all of it eventually gets in. There needs to be a massive overhaul of this area of the game to make it less of a mind numbing time vampire.

Alpheias wrote:
How do you feel about bombs in hi-sec?Lol


I think you need to take your medication. Shocked

2004-2008: Mercenary Coalition Boss

2007-2010: CCP Game Designer | 2011-2013: CSM6 Delegate & CSM7 Chairman

2011-2015: Pandemic Legionnaire

2015- : Mercenary Coalition Boss

Follow Seleene on Twitter!

Seleene
Body Count Inc.
Mercenary Coalition
#100 - 2012-01-28 17:29:54 UTC
Plutonian wrote:
Pay To Win (P2W) can be defined as paying a company (or referee) extra real life money to gain an advantage over an opponent within a competition. It is an important distinction that P2W scenarios are kept quiet on the part of the game's designers/referees. If they were to openly state that a player could pay them extra to gain an advantage, their game would generally be labeled as corrupt. For this reason, any Pay To Win actions are generally kept secretive... the referee does not want the players to know who is paying more to win, so that everyone is put under the pressure to pay more in order to stay competitive.

Currently, a situation exists within Eve which resembles this so closely that I am forced to say CCP implemented Pay To Win years ago... and got away with it.

I enjoy solo-fighting in T1 frigs. I am by no means alone in this, I encounter a great number of adversaries. After each combat I pull the logs and go through them to find how I may become a better fighter. Against one opponent, I simply could not understand how I kept losing so badly. I didn't seem to be making any mistakes. I'd been able to pull his fit from killboards, examined it closely, but could not figure out what I was doing wrong. In a conversation, he mentioned "You're never going to get anywhere until you get a boosting alt." And now I know why I cannot compete against him; he pays extra money to CCP (in the form of another account) to achieve a significant boost to his ship's capabilities. Unless I know who his alt is (difficult, if not impossible, in a crowded lowsec system) the secret is kept.

This has caused me to cease logging onto Eve. I now question every single solo fight I've ever had. Did I lose because I'm a poor pilot? Or because CCP offered my adversary an advantage in exchange for money and kept quiet?

Selene, here is my question to you: Does this not constitute Pay To Win?


No. In the example you cite, you are upset because someone running multiple accounts didn't do the ~honorable~ thing and 1v1 you. The thing is, he's not doing anything illegal or wrong and you have the option to do the exact same thing if you want. Your example is so situational that trying to apply it to the entire PVP dynamic of EVE doesn't work m8.

Plutonian wrote:
I've been advising new pilots on how to find and win solo fights (in the Warfare and Tactics section of the forums). Honestly, should I tell any new player to this game that they'll have to purchase or train up a separate boosting alt to be competitive?


Of course not. Tell them that the law of averages says that two ships beats one ships and they should try to avoid those situations. BTW, about as close as I've ever come to this is running a cap ship and a support ship on dual accounts. My mind is blown by dudes that can multi-task numerous support / boosting ships and not have their brain explode.

Plutonian wrote:
That they're wasting their time otherwise? Given the lengthy time to master even a single race of T1 frigates, do you think many new players would stay if they knew?


No offense m8, but I think most folks get basic math in terms of PVP engagement.

Plutonian wrote:
I realize the boosting stuff cannot be yanked from the game at this point... it's been in too long, too many people have trained for it. Thus, the only solution I can see to resolve this is to have boosting alts appear on the killmail. It is a poor solution in my eyes, not addressing the sad fact that you have the ability to Pay To Win here.

What are your thoughts on this? And do you think I should tell that new player who is planning on devoting time and effort into solo fighting to not waste his/her time?


This is the most eloquently written 'argument' I've yet seen about people using multiple accounts in EVE, but I've never seen the 'Pay 2 Win' label attached in quite this way. It's an interesting take on things but I don't agree with it at all. Sorry. :)

2004-2008: Mercenary Coalition Boss

2007-2010: CCP Game Designer | 2011-2013: CSM6 Delegate & CSM7 Chairman

2011-2015: Pandemic Legionnaire

2015- : Mercenary Coalition Boss

Follow Seleene on Twitter!