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Mining- Why it needs to be saved, and how to do it

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Author
Mors Sanctitatis
Death of Virtue
#141 - 2012-02-04 05:05:15 UTC
Mr Kidd wrote:
Quote:
Mining is also the foundation upon which all production is based and is the key logistical resource that should be managed to ensure winning any large scale conflict.


This is why mining will never get fixed. Could you imagine how expensive a ship would be if CCP did as you suggested? Most people in HS would still be flying their rookie ships and would do so until the bulkheads failed.

I think CCP's inaction on mining for the past......oh since game conception....speaks volumes. Skill training is a big enough deterrent for many gamers. If they had to spend 6mos saving up enough isk to fly a ship they spent the last 2 months training for, how long do you suppose it would be until the game just died?

I agree, something has to be done for mining to make it more interesting and to deter botting but, what that is, IDK. It's going to require something a bit more sophisticated than decreasing the availability of minerals.

Getting rid of local in null would deter botting, at least the 23/7 multi-box completely AFK variety where people make billions of isk never having sat at their computers for the past week. At least with no local the botters would have to have a network of real people monitoring the system's entrances. That's something.


Quite frankly, I wouldn't mind expensive ships. It would be the same for everyone, which is just fine. I fly ultra expensive ships simply because I'm so successful at PVP that I can live off of my kills and ransoms. Very few players in Eve can do this, most everyone has the idea that pirates have a carebear alt account to produce ISK so that they can PVP. I'm sure most do, but I've never been good at grinding crappy PVE content for ISK.

Anyway, I just don't think it would be a bad thing. I think we would see more value placed on T1 ships and named modules etc., which is a good thing.
Terminal Insanity
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#142 - 2012-02-04 05:08:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Terminal Insanity
I started out as a miner, and i have to say, it is very boring and the entire gameplay style just begs for botting.

I mean, you sit there, dragging a cargo full of rocks into your partner's orca once every 3 minutes. Repeat. Every day for months. You've got to be a pinhead to NOT consider macro'ing that bordom away. (and a pinhead for indeed macro'ing as well!)

Mining is, and has been forever, a very bad gameplay mechanic. Its not FUN in any sense of the word. Its simply a chore that needs to be done in order to get your space gold.

It should take work to earn money but it should have some sort of entertainment value, other then 3 minute laser cycles and drag/dropping rocks from one box to the other


The real problem is: What do you replace the mechanic with? Nobody has yet come up with a good solution.
Mining needs to be in the game, in some form.
Suggestions like minigames wont ever work, people play MMO's for its MMO content, not for its Bejeweld/Tetris style minigames.

And for the most part, i doubt people would even enjoy the minigame. It would just be another turn in the painful knot that is mining, and i think most people would just prefer the boring current implementation over that.


Someone needs to come up with a GOOD replacement for the mechanic, and nobody has, yet

"War declarations are never officially considered griefing and are not a bannable offense, and it has been repeatedly stated by the developers that the possibility for non-consensual PvP is an intended feature." - CCP

SigmaPi
Space Men
#143 - 2012-02-04 05:15:52 UTC
I didn't have time to read this whole thing, but pretty quality OP and good follow up ideas. I started this game as an industrialist (and to be honest I still am to some degree) but it's just no where near as rewarding as piew. I'd love for the devs to read this.
IsTheOpOver
#144 - 2012-02-04 15:35:35 UTC
Mors Sanctitatis wrote:

I guess there's always one in the crowd... go troll elsewhere.


What? One who's mined more than twice in 7 years? Yeah I guess I'll have to be the voice of reason.

I like also how when someone disagrees with you with your epic plan to "save mining" then they are a troll. That's your answer when you can't just blow someone up that calls you out for talking out your ass.

Use some of your mad pvp skills to blow up some miners... like a boss!




Heimer
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#145 - 2012-02-04 17:05:55 UTC
Mining is fine and fun the way it is -- if you're intelligent about it. The reduction of other mineral streams is coming, which will make it more lucrative (and lucrative, for me, is fun).

So mining has botters. Well, many parts of the game have botters. Luckily, mining botters pretty much have to go to static belts to do their dirty work.

This allows enterprising people to hunt them easily, and impact their numbers. (Refer to the current threads in Crime & Punishment -- that fellow from IEEE, and whereever Smodab Ongalot posted his thread about his personal war on bots. Impressive killboard there. Multiple hundreds of exhumers dead, *each month*)

The recent buffs to destroyers, to hybrid weapons, and the introduction of the tier 3 battlecruisers make bot hunting easier. (Somewhere Buck Futz's alt posted extolling the effectiveness of the tier3 BCs against miners, and his corp's killboard is filled with his solo kills and his mates' kills from smartbombing clusters of miners.)

They aren't the only players hunting.

I do find it hilarious that someone who has mined twice in his eve career is tryign to 'fix' mining. Real players do mine, and I'd go so far as to say that if you are ignorant about mining, then most changes you propose will probably ruin mining for the at-the-keyboard players who mine.
Sicyon
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#146 - 2012-02-04 17:46:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Sicyon
Being a miner myself I like the idea of having some sort of "jackpot reward" while mining. It would make for some better entertainment while mining. Maybe add some meta3/meta4 BPC in roids that you recive when you mine the whole astroid.

Would be fun to see messages while you mine:
"Your Modulated Strip Miner II stumbled upon an old blueprint that has been captured by the astroid in deep space a long long time ago. The blueprint is severly damaged but it does seem to be possible to fabricate at least a few rare units before it is fully destroyed"

As for all sorts of visual effects as bot deterence measures, it would probaly destroy the game for me as i'm color blind. Trying to see different colors/veins/graphic anomalies on astroids is just not possible for me. Not sure if this is the way to go. To deter botting you are making mining harder/more of a challange or whatever measure is persued. The real solotion would be a more aggressive and active policy by CCP with specialized software and DEV-teams active trying to hunt down and ban IP and people (not just accounts) who where caught.
Captain Sunnymuffins
Jita Customs and Excise
#147 - 2012-02-04 18:10:36 UTC
Well speaking as a dirty scumbag who likes to blow things up just for the hell of it, I have to say this is actually a pretty reasonable idea to revive the mining profession ( and I don't think anyone can argue that it really does need to be addressed at this point).

The economy will probably suffer more than you are estimating, though, considering that, if CSM are correct, about 70% of minerals coming from drones: losing both that and the bunk-grade mod sources of minerals would be a major hit to supply and it would take considerable time for the players to adjust. Of course it would adjust eventually as these things tend to.

Not so sure about the BPC's spawning. Sounds like a load of extra junk being added to the game. Personally I would trash them all. An alternative would be to increase regular rat bounties, make loot drops less frequent and restrict them to meta 1-3 items, thus forcing meta 0 items to be produced through manufacturing.

An increase in bounties over-all will have dire consequences for inflation which is already careering out of control. We need more ISK sinks, so why can't mining barges consume fuel in order to operate? Until an alternative ISK sink is developed, this fuel could be supplied by NPC's. This would not affect a miner's profits since they are the only source of minerals in the first place - they just add the cost to selling price.

Nice idea with defining the asteroids. Not fussy on the spin idea. Texture, yes.


Mors Sanctitatis
Death of Virtue
#148 - 2012-02-04 18:13:13 UTC
IsTheOpOver wrote:
Mors Sanctitatis wrote:

I guess there's always one in the crowd... go troll elsewhere.


What? One who's mined more than twice in 7 years? Yeah I guess I'll have to be the voice of reason.

I like also how when someone disagrees with you with your epic plan to "save mining" then they are a troll. That's your answer when you can't just blow someone up that calls you out for talking out your ass.

Use some of your mad pvp skills to blow up some miners... like a boss!



Hardly the "voice of reason". Roll

I like how you try and discount the validity of what I have to say with the reasoning that if I haven't mined very much then I can't possibly offer anything positive to contribute to the situation. The majority of the posts in the thread say otherwise.

Furthermore, you don't offer any concrete reasons as to why my ideas are bad, offer other ideas in their stead or try and suggest modifications of my ideas that would help improve the situation.

Hence, you're a troll.
Elanor Vega
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#149 - 2012-02-04 18:23:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Elanor Vega
Here are some good thoughts from one mining thread:


- make belts so that you must scan them... i dont think botts can do scanning very well... (maybe add some more statics on scans too so that you must have brain to see its only static)
- static belts have only very small roids for new players... (strips dont have use if it)
- when you left scanned belt its after short amount of time gone... you must scan again... - so that bot users cant scan all belts in the morning and have bot use bookmarks of belts all day long
- Boost rats - botts have more problems with defending themself then real people, and it would be more involving.




If you combine OP thoughts with this you get some very very good mechanics.
Amaroq Dricaldari
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#150 - 2012-02-04 21:58:53 UTC
I kind of like the idea of scanning for belts, but you should still keep statis belts, just make them not have as many asteroids, while the ones you have to scan contain rarer ores and denser asteroids, and they would be less likely to be visited by rats, making them safer.

I also like the 'Intuition' idea, OP.

This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.

Drop-Me-Own-Stocks Darius
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#151 - 2012-02-04 22:14:26 UTC
I was thinking...

People don't like CAPTCHAs, but what if you didn't have to type it in? What if it only displayed it as a CAPTCHA in the overview? Not a the type of Ore, but the Density of the Ore being displayed as a CAPTCHA in the overview.

You may have some disagreements, but it would be a simple way to discourage botting. They wouldn't recognize it as easily, so it would be harder for them to tell something like Scordite apart from Massive Scordite.
Who would like to buy a melon?  Madame, would you like to buy a--   ...oh. I see you've already got some.   Who would like to buy a melon?
Destination SkillQueue
Doomheim
#152 - 2012-02-04 22:24:48 UTC
Drop-Me-Own-Stocks Darius wrote:
I was thinking...

People don't like CAPTCHAs, but what if you didn't have to type it in? What if it only displayed it as a CAPTCHA in the overview? Not a the type of Ore, but the Density of the Ore being displayed as a CAPTCHA in the overview.

You may have some disagreements, but it would be a simple way to discourage botting. They wouldn't recognize it as easily, so it would be harder for them to tell something like Scordite apart from Massive Scordite.


Making botting harder is all fine and good, but whatever happens that needs to be a secondary consideration/side benefit of improving mining. Fun and gameplay for the players needs to be the only consideration while designing the new system. If you can then incorporate anti-botting aspects to it without diminishing the fun and gameplay, then fine, but fun and gameplay are and should always remain the primary focus of any changes.
Kiroma Halandri
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#153 - 2012-02-04 22:24:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Kiroma Halandri
Amaroq Dricaldari wrote:
I kind of like the idea of scanning for belts, but you should still keep statis belts, just make them not have as many asteroids, while the ones you have to scan contain rarer ores and denser asteroids, and they would be less likely to be visited by rats, making them safer.

I also like the 'Intuition' idea, OP.

I know! Mixed Asteroids!

Each asteroid would be randomly generated. The security status of the location, wether or not it is a static belt, wether or not it is in deadspace, etc, would all be factors in determining which ores would be in the asteroid. The apperance of the asteroid will be dependent on whichever ore is most abundant within said asteroid.

Examples:

Typical High-Sec Static Belt Asteroid (percentage and ores will vary):
  • 70-90% Veldspar
  • 10-30% Scordite


Typical High-Sec Hidden Asteroid (scanned belts):
  • Veldspar
  • Scordite
  • Pyroxeres


Typical Deadspace Asteroid:
  • Scordite
  • Pyroxeres
  • Plagioclause


Typical Mid-Sec Asteroid:
  • Pyroxeres
  • Plagioclause
  • Kernite


The list goes on.
[center]I'm not Anti-Social,    **I just don't like you.[/center]**
IsTheOpOver
#154 - 2012-02-04 23:54:50 UTC  |  Edited by: IsTheOpOver
Mors Sanctitatis wrote:

I like how you try and discount the validity of what I have to say with the reasoning that if I haven't mined very much then I can't possibly offer anything positive to contribute to the situation. The majority of the posts in the thread say otherwise.


If I post contrary to the majority of posters on the eve forums, I'm pretty ok with that.

Most people don't have the patience for mining. If they made every change you asked for I'd guess you would mine for a week or so, then go on to something else. Those who like it the way it is may not after the changes and unsub more than a couple accounts (miners are known to multibox).

I should go write a post on how to fix pvp. Probably won't matter that I haven't killed another player ever, but why should that stop me. I'm sure I'll think my ideas are grand and worthy!

A couple of your ideas I do favor but only the ones that don't impact the current mining mechanics.

Random rare loot that pops into your hold during mining... sure. Since everyone is getting this change while mining then it should affect everyone somewhat equally. The only change it really will make is multiple stacks of stuff in your cargo hold and perhaps make mining minerals more profitable.

Getting rid of minerals generated by reprocessed rat loot-droppings. Big change that I doubt CCP would want to tackle but who knows. Obviously this would make mining rocks more lucrative.

I tend to not want to see mining yield increased a lot as logic would dictate that the mined product would be in larger supply and it's value depreciated. However, apparently most minerals in the game are not mined but are gained by reprocessing rat-droppings so a higher mining yield should still help miners in general.

The other stuff about interacting with a rock in space while it spins or whatever.. inferior to the current system. Not everyone has to be smashing keys like a monkey on crack every second of the day. If I want that I can fire up Rift.
Elessa Enaka
Doomheim
#155 - 2012-02-05 00:21:41 UTC
Kiroma Halandri wrote:
Amaroq Dricaldari wrote:
I kind of like the idea of scanning for belts, but you should still keep statis belts, just make them not have as many asteroids, while the ones you have to scan contain rarer ores and denser asteroids, and they would be less likely to be visited by rats, making them safer.

I also like the 'Intuition' idea, OP.

I know! Mixed Asteroids!

Each asteroid would be randomly generated. The security status of the location, wether or not it is a static belt, wether or not it is in deadspace, etc, would all be factors in determining which ores would be in the asteroid. The apperance of the asteroid will be dependent on whichever ore is most abundant within said asteroid.

Examples:

Typical High-Sec Static Belt Asteroid (percentage and ores will vary):
  • 70-90% Veldspar
  • 10-30% Scordite


Typical High-Sec Hidden Asteroid (scanned belts):
  • Veldspar
  • Scordite
  • Pyroxeres


Typical Deadspace Asteroid:
  • Scordite
  • Pyroxeres
  • Plagioclause


Typical Mid-Sec Asteroid:
  • Pyroxeres
  • Plagioclause
  • Kernite


The list goes on.


So you saying that the asteroids would be made up of multiple ore types?

So you would target a generic asteroid and then after running a single cycle of your mining lasers realize that it was XX% Veld, XX% Scordite and then have each asteroid in the belt be some random variation on the mix of available ore types for the system?

Devour to survive, so it is, so it's always been Eve is a great game if you can get past all of the asshats....

Elanor Vega
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#156 - 2012-02-05 15:03:20 UTC
Amaroq Dricaldari wrote:
I kind of like the idea of scanning for belts, but you should still keep statis belts, just make them not have as many asteroids, while the ones you have to scan contain rarer ores and denser asteroids, and they would be less likely to be visited by rats, making them safer.

I also like the 'Intuition' idea, OP.


I wrote in my post that static belts would be there... but would have smaller roids that are not good for strip mining and are all the ppl with smaller ships need.
Mokokan
Wormhole Tourz
#157 - 2012-02-06 17:03:04 UTC
8 pages of ways to make mining more tedious, complicated, and less "fun".

Fabulous.

As with anything else in EVE, it's fun when you do it with other people. The more the merrier.
Jhan Niber
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#158 - 2012-02-06 18:11:17 UTC
I support this idea of overhauling mining. The concepts presented by the OP are the kind of things that are needed to retool mining for 2012 and beyond and help curb botting. The only thing that I would be concerned about is if this would overall affect the quantity of total resources in the galaxy available for construction. Hopefully it would be ensured that the current production capacity wouldn't be affected by tweaking the specific values for the asteroids themselves.
Erisia Malaclypse
The Discordian Echo
#159 - 2012-02-06 20:27:32 UTC
IsTheOpOver wrote:

If I post contrary to the majority of posters on the eve forums, I'm pretty ok with that.

Most people don't have the patience for mining. If they made every change you asked for I'd guess you would mine for a week or so, then go on to something else. Those who like it the way it is may not after the changes and unsub more than a couple accounts (miners are known to multibox).

I should go write a post on how to fix pvp. Probably won't matter that I haven't killed another player ever, but why should that stop me. I'm sure I'll think my ideas are grand and worthy!



I heartily approve of this message... Big smile
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation
The Honda Accord
#160 - 2012-02-06 20:35:00 UTC
Mors Sanctitatis wrote:
In the 7+ years I've played this game, I think I might have mined maybe twice. Max. It was not for me. That being said, mining is one of the most important and fundamental aspects of Eve and it has never been improved upon since the start of the game. I'd like to share my thoughts on why it's so important and what could be done to revitalize this lackluster and horribly unrewarding profession.

... some great ideas....

So, let's hear it! Thoughts?


Some great ideas! I'm driving an effort to get some folks elected to the CSM 7 with the specific goal of improving the mining experience. I know enough about miners to know that even though the CSM 6 thinks they are addressing mining concerns by changing the drone regions most miners know the bigger problems are mining needs more "fun per hour", not just "isk per hour" and that bots need to finally be removed (and there are some pretty easy changes that could make that happen.

Miners ( and the OP), I encourage you to follow and participate in my thread in Jita Park and the threads soon to follow where we discuss how to best encourage CCP to improve mining.

Issler Dainze
CSM 7 Candidate