Jita Park Speakers Corner

"If you build a fortress in there it is impossible to invade". The mechanics of infiltrating
capital ships into wormholes was discussed, as well as the "chain-collapsing" mechanic. CCP expressed some concern that as long as you were with a group of people, wormhole space is too safe. CCP was worried that the introduction of some sort of wormhole stabilizer would remove some of the everyday safety that people have grown to expect.”

There are a few of the so called “fortress systems” in wormhole space. The hand-full of major alliances and corps have 1 or 2 home systems with massive defenses. These defenses consist of up to dozens of capitals, towers at every moon and a near endless supply of ships. They are rightfully called “ fortresses” here, as they are very hard to take. However, it can be done. Making a stabilizer for wormhole mass however is a terrible idea. A possible solution could actually be much simpler. Ill start off why any tempering with the mass is bad if done from player side, and then continue with what i believe is a viable solution.

The eternally limiting faction for any major wormhole operation is mass. A single wormhole to the high class wormholes (where most of the fortresses are) can allow a maximum of 3 billion through it. In real world numbers this means 3 capitals, or 2 capitals and support fleet. If you want to go back as well, you’re limited to a single capital class ship. The amount of battleships will also often be limited since the 100m battleships cut in heavily on the mass.

Wormhole stabilizers would take all these problems away. Though as tempting as that may sound, most wormhole residents want those restrictions, because they give wormhole space their unique identity. Not only do the restrictions give us an edge, we are used to work with them every day and know how to manipulate them and use them to our full advantage. This also won’t only change how invasions will be done, but to any PvP engagement in wspace. Instead of having to consider the mass of your fleet now and wondering if it is the best way to use your limited available mass, you could just take everything you have, without restrictions, basically making it the same as any other kind of space.

This brings us back to the question, what to do about “fortress systems”. The answer is, change how self destruct works; yes, it is that simple.

An invasion of a well defended system with capable enemies is a lot of work. You can sneak scouts in, capitals, or entire fleets over time. Then you get initial fight over wormhole control so you can get reinforcements and supplies in, and then the actual assault starts. During this entire time you have to maintain full system control to make sure people don't log off in safe spots with their fancy stuff, or simply scan down the wormhole and do a runner. Simply put, its a lot of work to do so.

Considering the effort in engaging these “fortress” systems, there is very little incentive to do so because of the “Self destruction mechanics”. Unlike 0sec, a wormhole system doesn't have any value on its own. There are plenty of c5’s and c6’s unoccupied, plenty for everyone to find a new one or take another (or to start living in high class wormhole space). So conquering a wormhole isn't really a reward for attacking them, certainly not a fortress sytem, since a similar system can be found without a fight. The only argument to still attack a well defended system is then that you either get paid to do so, that there is a sincere grudge against the owners of that system, or because of a lot of loot.

I support this message.

I agree with the OP. This seems like a great way to accomplish what ccp wants to do, without all the problems wormhole stabilizers would bring.

+1

The answer is not being able to bring more mass in, if there is no potential reward in taking down these "fortress" or any wormholes in general people will just not do it. Its not worth it.

So

-1 to wormhole stabilizers

+1 To remove self-destruct within a pos in wh space

But that's what the nulltards want.

Instead of un-blueing each other, because we can't have actual PvP ruining their bot/RMT rackets, now can we.

That's why we need to vote them out next election-cycle.

Hell, I've started thinking more and more about standing myself, but then I'm reminded that I'd have to be dealing with those twats directly, and sanity once again prevails.

If mega corp want to invade small corp now, nothing gonna stop them anyway. Even with current restrictions.

But if megacorp settles in WH, its gonna be damn hard(read impossible) to root them out of there.

Make it so wh-wh connections are possible, but wh-kspace are not.

If you made POSes capturable instead of only killable, then wormhole wars could be about the taking of established and developed infrastructure rather than just p*ssing in someone else's cheerios or getting lewt from kills and POSes.

To be honest I think POSes need overhauling. There has been a trans-forum threadnought in Features & Ideas Discussion about making them modular mini-stations with a forcefield around them rather than just a tower with modules scattered around them.

Yes, now the prize is loot and ships, I'm saying make the infrastructure itself, i.e. the POS (or something else) the prize and motive for WHarfare. What you're talking about is a bandit raid, smash and grab, and that's perfectly fine and I support your suggestions. But what I'm talking about is conquest.

Think of real war. Why do armies bother capturing cities and military bases when there's plenty of land on Earth to build new ones? Because the existing static infrastructure and population have value. Sure you can extract some value from them by taking the city, pillaging it and then burning it to the ground, but that's banditry not conquest...

Currently you go into a wormhole, blow up all the POSes, that system now has no more value than any of the other hundreds of unoccupied C5/C6 wormholes in the game. Granted a capture mechanic for POSes might not be enough to drive WH conquest but maybe there could be some kind of player built structure that could serve that purpose. Perhaps something in between POSes and Outposts in terms of value and functionality that you can capture or just pillage

Now that I think about it Eve doesn't currently even let you pillage correctly. Rule #1: Pillage then burn. In Eve you burn everything and then pick through the charred wreckage hoping to find something that survived, which is pretty dumb. In a game full of spaceships and lasers, it turns out the best way to steal stuff is to betray the trust of people who have given you full unrestricted access to their stuff.

Read it with great interest. I never realised you were an alternate and to quote yourself: "Discussions like this one just make it clearer to me that I need to run for CSM 7, and I need to secure a full seat, which will be even tougher than it was for CSM 6". You will have my vote and most of my alliance as well as i imagine



Yes, Aharm invading CCRES's system was the largest wormhole invasion up to date, and Starbridge knocking on Aquila's front door closely following. However, as you said yourself, you did it to become Top Dog, which is a good reason. Starbridge invaded Aquila because of the tension between russian and english wormhole space. However, you cant deny, that other then those 2 examples and a few others, wormhole's are fairly quiet. If you have something to proof you can invade a system, if you really dislike someone, you can invade them. But other then morale reasons there usually aren't many reason to do large scale invasions. Give people a reason other then morale. Money works, its what wars are fought about irl. should do the job on eve.



Few problems. If you give killmails for SD, who would get them when done in a forcefield? everyone on grid? everyone not blue on grid? The 10 highest DPS ships? straight lotto?

a simpler solution would be to give SMA's a fitting requirement of 10 CPU. That way they cant be used like all the other POS mods. then its just a matter of proper scouting and attacking when noone is around or as few people as possible. Quickly reinforce it before people notice, wake up or can get to it, and fun is to be had all around

PS: capital sma's. yes please. though with the recent changes to onlining times this isnt an issue as big as it used to be. now you can just anchor 10 SMA's and online/offline them in a few seconds. still, couldnt hurt. Might reduce the times i got stuck