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They won't stop at nerfing the Drake...
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Vera Algaert
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#41 - 2012-01-20 22:16:01 UTC
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
This is a "misery loves company" approach and should be protested against. Otherwise it will continue until it reaches your favorite craft to fly.

if you wnt balance you have the choice between "misery loves company" and stat inflation. I prefer the former.

.
Atticus Lowa
Lowa Corp Industries and Security
#42 - 2012-01-20 22:23:37 UTC
so they are planning on removing damage resit for speed? that sounds more like a buff, its actually HARDER to make a ship faster than to buff its dmg resits.

and for the tengu to be nerfed would mean other SCs be nerfed too, plus the big reason its a mess, the SC is inherintly too powerful, each subsystem GIVES boni to the ship for its skill, this means a SC gets 6 skill-based buffs...

the only option if there such an issue is to get rid of them entirely, in other words the SC cannot be nerfed to a point where its no longer "OP" its DESGINED to be OP, if anything id ask for strategic frigates or strategic battleships, THAT would be a mess...

still, some nerfs are needed, but somehow doesn't this open a wound? caldari ships kinda suck outside of the drake and tengu, theyd have to revist caldari ships or risk angering the MAJORITY of eve players, still even i plan to use mammoths indies, and mining barges/exhumers are technically gallente so..... P
Lili Lu
#43 - 2012-01-20 22:25:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Lili Lu
Fon Revedhort wrote:
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
For those that are cheering on CCPs nuking of the Drake from orbit (Under greenlight from the CSM instead of telling us about it before them) Do you seriously think that ships like the Tengu will be spared?

I do hope it will not Attention

One nerf that was mentioned about a year ago is an overall reduction in HM range. This could be why the new Drake was hinted at having a velocity bonus. It may end up with about the same range on HM but the velocity bonus would benefit HAM fits. Similarly a HM range reduction (probably in flight time, as then it would not further delay damage) will impact one of the things that makes Tengus proliferate - their range.

Other than that, it appears CCP is concerned about tech III cruisers obsoleting HACs and Command ships. The link subsystems appear to be headed for alteration, and Commands getting a buff. Not sure if there is any plan to nerf combat subsystems to restore HACs or if HACs will be getting a buff. I would rather the latter. A buff to HACs would be nice to give them a leg up on tier 3 BCs, as it is not only tier 2 BCs and tech III cruisers that impact the utility of HACs.

edit- and yes with a buff to cruisers and frigs in general for all races this will benefit everyone hopefully and Caldari will nto be stuck thinking Drake, Tengu, ECM boat or nothing (not that I agree it has ever been that way anyway).

2nd edit - Endeavor, patience is what this game is about. Train some. Noone posting on threads atm other than Devs and maybe CSM (under an NDA) know what is coming. Really, learn to love rebalancing. If you still hate it after it hits the test server that would be the appropriate time to post that the sky is falling (whether objectively it will be or not). Oh and train a second race for some perspective on the game as a whole.
Hanoch Wheel
Free Wheeling Industries
#44 - 2012-01-20 22:35:24 UTC
Atticus Lowa wrote:
so they are planning on removing damage resit for speed? that sounds more like a buff, its actually HARDER to make a ship faster than to buff its dmg resits.

and for the tengu to be nerfed would mean other SCs be nerfed too, plus the big reason its a mess, the SC is inherintly too powerful, each subsystem GIVES boni to the ship for its skill, this means a SC gets 6 skill-based buffs...

the only option if there such an issue is to get rid of them entirely, in other words the SC cannot be nerfed to a point where its no longer "OP" its DESGINED to be OP, if anything id ask for strategic frigates or strategic battleships, THAT would be a mess...

still, some nerfs are needed, but somehow doesn't this open a wound? caldari ships kinda suck outside of the drake and tengu, theyd have to revist caldari ships or risk angering the MAJORITY of eve players, still even i plan to use mammoths indies, and mining barges/exhumers are technically gallente so..... P


Proposed change is to remove Shield and Kinetic damage bonuses and add bonuses to Rate of Fire and Missile Speed, not ship speed.

It is arguably a buff not a nerf, but the refocusing would seem to be unneeded and cause all the drake pilots to have to figure out how to fight with their ship again. It also makes the Drake more like the Caracal which is not a terribly successful ship. Since their stated reasoning is clearly to nerf, I think the fear is that it won't stop there.

Not touching the Tengu part of your post.

I think the days of wandering around with a nerf bat playing wack-a-mole with the playerbase should probably end. Sure sometimes a nerf may need to happen, but it inevitably alienates players. Not something CCP needs right now, so IMHO that option should be held to a last resort.

I think balance via measured and small buffs to other ships over time is the answer.
Conrad Makbure
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2012-01-20 22:39:16 UTC
Nick Bison wrote:
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:


... This is a "misery loves company" approach and should be protested against. Otherwise it will continue until it reaches your favorite craft to fly.



I fly Gallente, all my ships come pre-nerfed or have already been nerfed to near uselessness.
Welcome to the club ...

Nick

PS - obligatory, "you mad?"



This. I'm looking at other empire faction ships now because it's just stupid how weak Gallente is compared to other empire factions. I fly a Hyperion fit for lev 4's and I'm about 6 days away from flying an Abaddon, empty. Probably time to go holy.
Hanoch Wheel
Free Wheeling Industries
#46 - 2012-01-20 22:48:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Hanoch Wheel
Vera Algaert wrote:
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
This is a "misery loves company" approach and should be protested against. Otherwise it will continue until it reaches your favorite craft to fly.

if you wnt balance you have the choice between "misery loves company" and stat inflation. I prefer the former.


That's very EVE of you. I'd say the latter is a more winning strategy.

As much as I recognize the value of schadenfreude in this environment, I think the nerf bat needs to be reserved for cases where it absolutely must be used.

What you call "stat inflation", I would call progress. In a far future simulation with a wartime economy our ships should be getting better over time.

From a meta perspective, CCP has a need to make the player base happy with their own game play situation (therefore retaining players and better word of mouth for getting more) and stop pissing people off. Measured buffs on lesser used ships are far more useful than just picking the most used and messing with it until it is no longer as popular.

So for the sake of a better simulation, a more enthusiastic playerbase, and more cash... CCP, stop messing with whats not broken and fix what is.
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
#47 - 2012-01-20 23:52:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Fon Revedhort
Lili Lu wrote:
Fon Revedhort wrote:
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
For those that are cheering on CCPs nuking of the Drake from orbit (Under greenlight from the CSM instead of telling us about it before them) Do you seriously think that ships like the Tengu will be spared?

I do hope it will not Attention

One nerf that was mentioned about a year ago is an overall reduction in HM range. This could be why the new Drake was hinted at having a velocity bonus.

As a missile user I think range reduction is a huge buff since it alone will make the game much more interesting, plus players would have to actually make some trade-offs in their setups. Missile velocity rigs will become useful! That's awesome. Pre-fitted ships are boring.

At the moment there's just too much long-range weapons around. I hope TE fix fill follow as well.

"Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.
Xolve
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#48 - 2012-01-20 23:53:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Xolve
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
Max Von Sydow wrote:
NERF?
I'd almost call that a buff.


Without the tank the drake is useless. A bit of extra range wont help when your expensive BC hull is instapopped by a small alpha fleet. Mise well fly a BS cruiser to get through the CTA and then go puke in some belt in frustration while an alliance leader counts this months moon goo production.


Confirming 25m is expensive now.

Excuse me while I laugh myself out of my chair. Lol

I do love when pubbies speak of moon goo and CTAs, and call drakes expensive ships...
Lyrrashae
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#49 - 2012-01-21 05:28:47 UTC
Xolve wrote:
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
Max Von Sydow wrote:
NERF?
I'd almost call that a buff.


Without the tank the drake is useless. A bit of extra range wont help when your expensive BC hull is instapopped by a small alpha fleet. Mise well fly a BS cruiser to get through the CTA and then go puke in some belt in frustration while an alliance leader counts this months moon goo production.


Confirming 25m is expensive now.

Excuse me while I laugh myself out of my chair. Lol

I do love when pubbies speak of moon goo and CTAs, and call drakes expensive ships...


Going by the classic definition of that gratingly stupid word, you're as much a pubbie as those you're trying to insult, pubbie.

So why don't you just like, close that second ******* in your face? Pubbie.

Ni.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#50 - 2012-01-21 14:00:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Lyrrashae wrote:
Xolve wrote:
Confirming 25m is expensive now.

Excuse me while I laugh myself out of my chair. Lol

I do love when pubbies speak of moon goo and CTAs, and call drakes expensive ships...


Going by the classic definition of that gratingly stupid word, you're as much a pubbie as those you're trying to insult, pubbie.

So why don't you just like, close that second ******* in your face? Pubbie.
You really burned him with that post, I'm not sure he'll ever recover tbh. Sad

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#51 - 2012-01-21 14:07:25 UTC
the issue isn't the drake, it's the fact that it overshadows literally every other missile platform in the game short of the Tengu

buff the nighthawk, make the Cerberus relevant again and round out the Tengu so that it doesn't make literally every missile ship irrelevant

done!

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Xolve
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#52 - 2012-01-21 14:56:09 UTC
Lyrrashae wrote:
Going by the classic definition of that gratingly stupid word, you're as much a pubbie as those you're trying to insult, pubbie.

So why don't you just like, close that second ******* in your face? Pubbie.


Going by the classic definition, yes I am a member on the SomethingAwful Forums, therefore your argument is invalid.

Have a nice day!





Pubbie.
Nephilius
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#53 - 2012-01-21 15:11:15 UTC
Krixtal Icefluxor wrote:
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:
For those that are cheering on CCPs nuking of the Drake from orbit (Under greenlight from the CSM instead of telling us about it before them) Do you seriously think that ships like the Tengu will be spared?

Under this new return to the Incarna mindset in my opinion. It is not about fixing lower tier or higher class craft so they actually get used in fleet battles. It is about nuking anything that is actually useable for a solo pilot or small group. The Tengu will coming if you sit back and let this Drake nerf go on without protest.

This is a "misery loves company" approach and should be protested against. Otherwise it will continue until it reaches your favorite craft to fly.



Between my Drake and my Tengu......a Nighthawk or Vulture are REDUNDANT options.

That Drake has been too overpowered for FIVE years at least.

Time for it to get a zap.

And I love my Drake.

And why can I do Level IV's in a freaking cruiser (Strategic) for sakes????

The game ships are indeed imbalanced and this is a much welcome change.


Instead of nerfing though, why don't they buff? The Nighthawk and its t2 brethren should stand head and shoulders above their t1 variants, and yet they really don't in some cases. It really doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me to leave what is broke still broken, and instead look somewhere else for the problem. Don't get me wrong, I am interested to see how the new bonuses would play out. It just seems like CCP doesn't have a clue how to fix the things that need fixing and instead give us something else totally unrelated in order to placate us. In the grand scheme of things, the Drake is pretty far down on that list.
"If."
Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#54 - 2012-01-21 15:13:57 UTC
just fix cruise missiles .. and be done with it .. Big smile

who need 270km range Cool

dont mind me.
Berendas
Ascendant Operations
#55 - 2012-01-21 15:55:31 UTC
Why should the Tengu be spared? It's just as overpowered as the Drake is. *Points at the alliance tournaments*


[Queue Caldari pilots' victim complex]
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#56 - 2012-01-21 16:04:32 UTC
Oh my, I'm getting flashbacks.

One of the most dumbest arguments (and yet very often repeated) against the nanonerf years ago was that it was an intended nerf to small gang PVP.

The nanonerf didn't have anything to do with balance, the fact that afterburners were completely useless, the fact that web/MWD was mandatory, or the fact that some ships were simply uncatchable...it was because CCP just really hates small gangs.




...It was a stupid argument then and it's a stupid argument now. Yes, things that are overpowered also happen to be overpowered in small groups or solo. The drake's features which lead people to think it is overpowered apply equally well to solo/small gang and to fleets - it's not like drake blobs are unheard of in 0.0.
Skydell
Bad Girl Posse
#57 - 2012-01-21 16:07:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Skydell
This isn't the first time they nerfed in EVE. Hell it isn't the first time they nerfed Drake.
Missle nerf was a Drake Nerf. People think the Drake is OP'ed now, you should have seen them before the nano nerf.

What makes me question these things is the focus on the ships. Has EVE truly been reduced to ship bonus? Nothing is being "fixed" if your answer is to tweak a few ship bonuses. That just tells me they ran out of ideas.
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#58 - 2012-01-21 16:19:12 UTC
Under this goon/testie supported CSM, the Eve Online sandbox is slowly turning into a 0.0 napfest swarm alliance favored, no-PvE sandfort box game focused on 1 thing only.

Sub cap PvP in blobs with Caldari being the new minmatar, while caps and supers are reduced to useless doorstops.

This drake nerf is only the tip of the ice berg. Watch this space.

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
Xolve
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#59 - 2012-01-21 16:21:35 UTC
Berendas wrote:
Why should the Tengu be spared? It's just as overpowered as the Drake is. *Points at the alliance tournaments*


[Queue Caldari pilots' victim complex]


In all fairness.. a Tengu plus Subsystems costs about 20-25 times what a drake does (and that is not factoring in mods..). So yeah in that price range I would expect it to perform on a much greater wavelength then a 20m isk battlecruiser.
Skydell
Bad Girl Posse
#60 - 2012-01-21 16:24:58 UTC
Asuka Solo wrote:
Under this goon/testie supported CSM, the Eve Online sandbox is slowly turning into a 0.0 napfest swarm alliance favored, no-PvE sandfort box game focused on 1 thing only.

Sub cap PvP in blobs with Caldari being the new minmatar, while caps and supers are reduced to useless doorstops.

This drake nerf is only the tip of the ice berg. Watch this space.


Goons? They died years ago, sold the name to a bunch of internet lawyers and politicians.

They are part of the problem, a big part.

EVE has no balls anymore.