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Warfare & Tactics

 
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CSM Minutes on Faction Warfare

Author
sYnc Vir
Wolfsbrigade
Ghost Legion.
#41 - 2012-01-18 12:18:17 UTC
Having slept on it, and looked back over what CCP is thinking. I truly believe we need to start 500 "leave FW alone" threads. Cause while it might have its problems, their ideas on changes are so ******** that I stick with what we have.

Don't ask about Italics, just tilt your head.

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#42 - 2012-01-18 12:20:53 UTC
Damar Rocarion wrote:
Deen Wispa wrote:
He doesn't get it. High level organization brings high level espionage, manipulation, and metagaming. Everybody wants to win, ya know. Which is essentially nullsec; do whatever it takes to bring down your competitor.


You do understand that FW is already full of espionage, metagaming and all other things associated with "srs spaceship buziness" of 0.0 and only time it has not been such was in the first couple of months of existence.


You might be right but that is pretty ridiculous, and most in fw think its lame.

Lots of people don't want to come home from work and start lying to others on vent for the sake of computer game glory. I guess fw will be one less option for them in eve.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#43 - 2012-01-18 12:33:22 UTC
sYnc Vir wrote:
Having slept on it, and looked back over what CCP is thinking. I truly believe we need to start 500 "leave FW alone" threads. Cause while it might have its problems, their ideas on changes are so ******** that I stick with what we have.


I feel the same. However, this won't happen.

The plexing mechanic is broken - very few use it/care about it. We need to be more clear about why we don't use it. If we aren't giving any sort of clear guidance we can't be surprised if they land off the mark.

I don't plex because I don't really care for shooting npcs. I don't care about plexing because it is set up such that the most effecient way to do it is in pve ships. Make it a mechanic for frequent, quality, small scale pvp and I will do it.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Hidden Snake
Inglorious-Basterds
#44 - 2012-01-18 12:40:04 UTC
Cearain wrote:
sYnc Vir wrote:
Having slept on it, and looked back over what CCP is thinking. I truly believe we need to start 500 "leave FW alone" threads. Cause while it might have its problems, their ideas on changes are so ******** that I stick with what we have.


I feel the same. However, this won't happen.

The plexing mechanic is broken - very few use it/care about it. We need to be more clear about why we don't use it. If we aren't giving any sort of clear guidance we can't be surprised if they land off the mark.

I don't plex because I don't really care for shooting npcs. I don't care about plexing because it is set up such that the most effecient way to do it is in pve ships. Make it a mechanic for frequent, quality, small scale pvp and I will do it.


Current plexing mechanism is hot fixed to acceptable level .... It allows more or less fluid fighting and capturing
Uppsy Daisy
Perkone
Caldari State
#45 - 2012-01-18 13:00:30 UTC
Cearain wrote:
sYnc Vir wrote:
Having slept on it, and looked back over what CCP is thinking. I truly believe we need to start 500 "leave FW alone" threads. Cause while it might have its problems, their ideas on changes are so ******** that I stick with what we have.


I feel the same. However, this won't happen.

The plexing mechanic is broken - very few use it/care about it. We need to be more clear about why we don't use it. If we aren't giving any sort of clear guidance we can't be surprised if they land off the mark.

I don't plex because I don't really care for shooting npcs. I don't care about plexing because it is set up such that the most effecient way to do it is in pve ships. Make it a mechanic for frequent, quality, small scale pvp and I will do it.



Plexing just needs a reward and it will be in pretty good shape for the frequent, quality, small scale pvp you talk about.

Since the changes to plexing spawn mechanics there has been a LOT more plexing (at least in Amarr/Minmatar militia). This has led to a lot of small scale pvp, along with the odd larger scale fight with a few capital ships on each side (i.e. Sisiede a few nights ago). It is good fun to be in FW at the moment.

I never used to plex. Now I do, even without the reward.

Your reasons for not plexing are not that great to be honest.

Not shooting NPCs? They are pretty weak - you do know you can *easily* clear a Minor Plex in a PVP fitted Tech 1 Frigate?
Similar Mediums can be done in Tech 1 PVP fitted cruisers.

All it needs is a reward.

March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#46 - 2012-01-18 13:47:19 UTC
miners can't avoid pvp and just play their "end game".

why should FW people be allowed to play their "end game" and avoid other parts of a game?
Big smile

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"

Shaalira D'arc
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#47 - 2012-01-18 13:52:42 UTC
March rabbit wrote:
miners can't avoid pvp and just play their "end game".

why should FW people be allowed to play their "end game" and avoid other parts of a game?
Big smile


You can stick to humping drones and we can stick to PvP. The sandbox is big enough for the both of us.
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#48 - 2012-01-18 13:59:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
Uppsy Daisy wrote:
Cearain wrote:
sYnc Vir wrote:
Having slept on it, and looked back over what CCP is thinking. I truly believe we need to start 500 "leave FW alone" threads. Cause while it might have its problems, their ideas on changes are so ******** that I stick with what we have.


I feel the same. However, this won't happen.

The plexing mechanic is broken - very few use it/care about it. We need to be more clear about why we don't use it. If we aren't giving any sort of clear guidance we can't be surprised if they land off the mark.

I don't plex because I don't really care for shooting npcs. I don't care about plexing because it is set up such that the most effecient way to do it is in pve ships. Make it a mechanic for frequent, quality, small scale pvp and I will do it.



Plexing just needs a reward and it will be in pretty good shape for the frequent, quality, small scale pvp you talk about.

Since the changes to plexing spawn mechanics there has been a LOT more plexing (at least in Amarr/Minmatar militia). This has led to a lot of small scale pvp, along with the odd larger scale fight with a few capital ships on each side (i.e. Sisiede a few nights ago). It is good fun to be in FW at the moment.

I never used to plex. Now I do, even without the reward.

Your reasons for not plexing are not that great to be honest.

Not shooting NPCs? They are pretty weak - you do know you can *easily* clear a Minor Plex in a PVP fitted Tech 1 Frigate?
Similar Mediums can be done in Tech 1 PVP fitted cruisers.

All it needs is a reward.


I agree that the changes are good changes.

How many people in fw are primarilly and actively plexing now?

IMO the fight for occupancy should be the point of fw. If we only have a hundred or so people doing this its broken.

We are in the same miliitia - amarr - and I have found that if you are active tanked then you can do mediums in a t1 cruiser.

If you are passive tanked (which is how I prefer to fit my pvp ships) the rats will cut into your buffer tank quite a bit. I have tried in an armor tanked vexor and shield tanked ruptures. This even assumes that I start the plex. If someone else started the plex and I see a war target in the plex the rats will chew through my tank very fast. The major open plexes are hard to tank even if you have a battleship with an active tank. Its pretty ridiculous.

Are your pvp fits active tanked?

As far as rewards you do get decent tags in the level 3 majors probably about 25 mill in tags per 20 minute plex. Thats 75 mill per hour. How much reward do we need?

You get not so great tags in mediums but its something. Minors you get nothing I agree.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

sYnc Vir
Wolfsbrigade
Ghost Legion.
#49 - 2012-01-18 14:38:17 UTC
For solo mediums use a Caracal and just pilot well and they will never even hit you never mind break you. Also Battleships can't enter majors. Unrestricted yes, Majors no.

The current plex system has indeed increased the number of small scale pvp, it honestly just needs two tweaks.

1 - A reward.

2 - Spawns, Allowing a cloaked ship to delay the repawn by remaining in the plex is stupid. It would also be nice if no repawns took place until the minor, medium AND major have been taken. As often wts will just bail and reship for smaller ships if the numbers are not to their liking. Requiring all three are taking before a respawn forces the issue and drives everyone to the fight.


Don't ask about Italics, just tilt your head.

sYnc Vir
Wolfsbrigade
Ghost Legion.
#50 - 2012-01-18 14:39:05 UTC  |  Edited by: sYnc Vir
March rabbit wrote:
miners can't avoid pvp and just play their "end game".

why should FW people be allowed to play their "end game" and avoid other parts of a game?
Big smile



I beg to differ, so so much is that not true.

Edit, Miners should be in for a income increase once Drones are changed. Just mine better roids.

Don't ask about Italics, just tilt your head.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
#51 - 2012-01-18 14:52:50 UTC
So, do you all believe me now?

I have been almost alone in my assumption that CCP have no idea what to with FW or even how to do it so will likely end up breaking it completely.

Just some points:
- CCP are only now making things other than doodles on papers labelled 'FW' .. guess they 'lost' the original napkin.
- Alliances allowed in with practically no caveats.
- MOAR! EHP grind crappola for our gaming pleasure .. blobs for all!
- Egomaniacs (more so than the local breed) to be given actual say .. WTF!
- FW to be abused as a workbench for the really important part of Eve .. Null *sigh*.

Three years of lobbying for meaningful debate on my part with countless (well some) good/constructive threads and this is what I get .. gee, could have gone down to local park and had the resident hobos **** on me if that was what I wanted ..
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#52 - 2012-01-18 14:54:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
sYnc Vir wrote:
For solo mediums use a Caracal and just pilot well and they will never even hit you never mind break you. Also Battleships can't enter majors. Unrestricted yes, Majors no.

The current plex system has indeed increased the number of small scale pvp, it honestly just needs two tweaks.

1 - A reward.

2 - Spawns, Allowing a cloaked ship to delay the repawn by remaining in the plex is stupid. It would also be nice if no repawns took place until the minor, medium AND major have been taken. As often wts will just bail and reship for smaller ships if the numbers are not to their liking. Requiring all three are taking before a respawn forces the issue and drives everyone to the fight.





A caracal? Never mind the fact that few people want to pvp in a caracal unless you are trying to gank frigates or just whoring kms in a blob.

Let me ask this are you actually orbiting in range of the button in this caracal? If so how is this pvp caracal fit?

I thought there were 2 types of majors unrestricted, and accel gate restricted. I thought they were both called major plexes. I may be wrong, but I don't think so. But my point still stands that the rats in these unrestricted plexes make it difficult even in an active tanked BS.

Rewards: Again, you get about 25 mil in tags for a doing a 20 minute restricted major plex. Thats 75 mill per hour. What sort of increase in reward are you looking for?

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

sYnc Vir
Wolfsbrigade
Ghost Legion.
#53 - 2012-01-18 15:18:46 UTC
I don't often plex, Im normally sat in the fleet camping a gate while Damar runs down the timer in his Caracal, Gila, Hookbill, thrasher or Cat. When I do go into them Im normally in a ruppy.

Having said that a Heavy missile Caracal can and does solo mediums very very easily. If you want some extra protection use a Navy Caracal.

Also you should plex with that group cause not a single person I know collects tags, EVER.

Don't ask about Italics, just tilt your head.

Hidden Snake
Inglorious-Basterds
#54 - 2012-01-18 15:22:08 UTC
Btw now people do plexing much more .... Even gals got seriously in the biz!
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#55 - 2012-01-18 15:23:34 UTC
Hirana Yoshida wrote:
So, do you all believe me now?

I have been almost alone in my assumption that CCP have no idea what to with FW or even how to do it so will likely end up breaking it completely. ...


Why do you think you are alone in that assumption? How could they have an idea?

Where is the thread where we have a consensus on what *in particular* should be done?

I know this is not popular to say. But we have not exactly been in agreement on what should be done. Although, we have been vocal that it needs to be "fixed".

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Damar Rocarion
Nasranite Watch
Marine Division
#56 - 2012-01-18 15:30:09 UTC
Cearain wrote:
A caracal? Never mind the fact that few people want to pvp in a caracal unless you are trying to gank frigates or just whoring kms in a blob.


I'm sure the 10 man Goonswarm gang thought the same when they attacked my navy caracal. Sadly I only killed 5 before rest of them fled and ran to make a /b/ thread about it Lol

In all seriousness, caracal takes any medium plex without issue. If it has full spawn, then it requires some warp outs but it does them. Navy caracal takes any medium easily and can take most gated outposts too (the one with initial spawn of 4 battleships is bit heavy to go, of course you can snipe the rats from range before triggering other waves but it's not very time effective and in same time you could easily go get a drake for it)
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#57 - 2012-01-18 15:31:30 UTC
sYnc Vir wrote:
I don't often plex, Im normally sat in the fleet camping a gate while Damar runs down the timer in his Caracal, Gila, Hookbill, thrasher or Cat. When I do go into them Im normally in a ruppy.

Having said that a Heavy missile Caracal can and does solo mediums very very easily. If you want some extra protection use a Navy Caracal.

Also you should plex with that group cause not a single person I know collects tags, EVER.


I can tell you don't plex often at least not for amarr because what you are saying is not consistent with my own experience.

Please give the fit of the caracal that tanks the minmatar rats *very very easilly* even when you are in range of the button.

Maybe I am not as good at pve as you but when I took my pvp shield rupture (standard fit with mwd tech 2 shield and point) in and I found my tank getting chewed up in a medium even when I was shooting spawns as soon as they came. I guess I will believe my own eyes.

If you don't collect the tags then you choose not to accept the reward. But that doesn't mean that the reward is not offered.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
#58 - 2012-01-18 15:46:10 UTC
Damar Rocarion wrote:
Cearain wrote:
A caracal? Never mind the fact that few people want to pvp in a caracal unless you are trying to gank frigates or just whoring kms in a blob.


I'm sure the 10 man Goonswarm gang thought the same when they attacked my navy caracal. Sadly I only killed 5 before rest of them fled and ran to make a /b/ thread about it Lol

In all seriousness, caracal takes any medium plex without issue. If it has full spawn, then it requires some warp outs but it does them. Navy caracal takes any medium easily and can take most gated outposts too (the one with initial spawn of 4 battleships is bit heavy to go, of course you can snipe the rats from range before triggering other waves but it's not very time effective and in same time you could easily go get a drake for it)



Don't expect most wts to be as bad as goons.

I'm thinking you will admit a caracal is a more pve friendly ship than what people typically want to fly in pvp. I would never pass up an opportunity to fight a caracal in my rupture or vexor. (note I said caracal not navy caracal) And if it requires warp outs that means its not efficient and you will definitely want to warp out if you see an enemy coming with a point.

But yes I admit a pvp drake does do the gated majors and somewhat efficiently. If I start the plex and keep shooting the rats I will still likely take on most ships that venture in, unless the timing is bad. I still find I need to start shooting the ships before they get on top of me which means if I want to loot the wreck I often have to go outside the orbit range.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Hidden Snake
Inglorious-Basterds
#59 - 2012-01-18 15:46:35 UTC
Damar Rocarion wrote:
Cearain wrote:
A caracal? Never mind the fact that few people want to pvp in a caracal unless you are trying to gank frigates or just whoring kms in a blob.


I'm sure the 10 man Goonswarm gang thought the same when they attacked my navy caracal. Sadly I only killed 5 before rest of them fled and ran to make a /b/ thread about it Lol

In all seriousness, caracal takes any medium plex without issue. If it has full spawn, then it requires some warp outs but it does them. Navy caracal takes any medium easily and can take most gated outposts too (the one with initial spawn of 4 battleships is bit heavy to go, of course you can snipe the rats from range before triggering other waves but it's not very time effective and in same time you could easily go get a drake for it)


Gotcha .... U caused this goon involvement in our beloved garden of forsaken eden ;)
Kagan Storm
Doomheim
#60 - 2012-01-18 15:47:12 UTC
i tought militia are random people that run around with guns and then go home and farm cattle..... Not a normal army....

So electing anything would be pointles. You have ceos of corporations that fight in militia warerafe.... you have individuals... if i have a 5 man fleat and you are solo you are gonna join my 5 man fleat and be quiet....


Seriously who the hell talks at those meetings? Somebodey with a serious OCD i can see... they wanna make a complex thing out of mining veldspar....


FW is fine... Works as intended.... you run around shoot crap... get LPs.... go home.... Now if somebodey wants to be a great military general who wants to build and organize stuff.... you have 2500 0.0 systems and 2500 WHole systems..... have fun there....

My ego is the the size of my carriers jump range.