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Nerfing Caldari?

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Oftherocks
BOATFULL
Good Sax
#221 - 2012-01-18 20:06:56 UTC
The Drake hate in this thread makes me sad.
Vigrioth Stoneclaw
Daskak Verskaffers
#222 - 2012-01-18 20:12:23 UTC
Zagam wrote:
When I can easily build a drake that has almost 100k EHP against omni damage....


This I gotta see...
Hoskoal Ricks
#223 - 2012-01-18 20:13:35 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
[...]™.


Good answer(s).

Nice to know I won't be needing to firesale my two caldari alts.
Alara IonStorm
#224 - 2012-01-18 20:18:34 UTC
Vigrioth Stoneclaw wrote:
Zagam wrote:
When I can easily build a drake that has almost 100k EHP against omni damage....


This I gotta see...

[Drake, Buffer]
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Co-Processor II
Damage Control II

Large Shield Extender II
Invulnerability Field II
Invulnerability Field II
Photon Scattering Field II
Heat Dissipation Field II
Y-T8 Overcharged Hydrocarbon I Microwarpdrive

Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Heavy Missile Launcher II, Caldari Navy Scourge Heavy Missile
Small Energy Neutralizer II

Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I
Medium Core Defence Field Extender I


Warrior II x5
Qarth
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#225 - 2012-01-18 20:18:35 UTC
Not-Apsalar wrote:
Skippermonkey wrote:


#1 How many other tech 1 battlecruisers can run a level 4 mission solo? The point is their tank is too much for a ship of their size. To be perfectly honest, nobody worth their salt will be upset that a Drake can no longer run a lvl4 mission, you should be running those in a higher quality of ship. I am actually more excited that the Drake will be able to deal more damage


Err, you can't run Level 4 missions efficiently in a maxed out drake. You need to warp in and out if CR or kite for days. And we're not even talking about Angel Extravaganza. Efficient Level 4s start at a Raven and end at a faction/tech2 battleship, command ship, or T3

I can run Level 4s in a bomber. It just takes all goddamned day. That's no different than a Drake.


Incorrect...

I can sit still in a Drake in any level 4 and be fine. Drake has a super uber tank on it, if you have spent the time to skill up.

That's not an issue here.

The real issue is. Caldari have 2 viable PvP ships outside ECM boats and one of them is the Drake. Then the ECM changes mentioned. What are you left with? The Tangu is left as the only viable choice for Caldari. The rest of the Caldari line up is crap for PvP. So you nerf one of the 2 PvP ships the Caldari have and haven't even brought the rest of their fleet up to snuff before you do it.

Just a knee jerk reaction to the problem. Fix the damn problems 1st, then no one will really care if you nerf the Drake.
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
#226 - 2012-01-18 20:25:42 UTC
Not-Apsalar wrote:
Fon Revedhort wrote:


Either way, Drakes get balanced, but the first way is shorter thus should be prefered.



So will nerfing the Drake make more people fly a Ferox? No. How about another class of ship... say a Moa? No. It will just make more people fly Hurricanes... until Hurricanes get nerfed

... and then they will finally start flying Feroxes and Moas! Big smile

Post tot naufragia, - portum!.. Big smile

"Being supporters of free speech and free and open [CSM] elections... we removed Fon Revedhort from eligibility". CCP, April 2013.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#227 - 2012-01-18 20:45:20 UTC
CCP Ytterbium wrote:
Please keep in mind these notes date back from December, and as such some points may have evolved as we are gathering more data with time.


TALOS VS NAGA:


  • Surprisingly enough, the Talos seems quite popular, and a lot better performance wise than the initial feedback suggested. Even if we have been discussing its relative balance with the Naga, nothing is planned to be changed on either of them for now; in the remote possibility we tweak them, it would most likely be modifications affecting all tier 3 battlecruisers, like a slight speed decrease. But again, tier 3 battlecruisers are not on the top of our balancing list right now.


DRAKE (and to an extent, tier 2 battlecruisers):

There is a reason why it is the most used battlecruiser out there. The problem with the Drake is that it is does everything too well for little cost or sacrifice, while being easy to train for. Thus, and to an extent most of the tier 2 battlecruisers create a certain number of issues that should be addressed:

(Yes, leaving tier 1 battlecruisers out of the discussion because there is no point arguing with the obvious fact they need some attention).


  • Overshadow other tech 1 hulls: the leap in performance between cruiser and tier 2 battlecruiser classes is just too great for too little cost (average slot count, EHP mainly). This, coupled with the gain in damage for having access to more weapon slots, as well as extra fitting power (ever tried squeezing turrets into an Omen and keep a decent fit?), makes the small loss of speed irrelevant when leaving the cruiser class as battlecruisers still remain fairly mobile. That's partly why the Hurricane also is so popular.

  • Overshadows tech 2 counterparts: Heavy Assault Ships and Command Ships are suffering from this situation. This is most apparent with the Nighthawk, but any ship that shares a common role with them is affected. Why take the time to train up and pay for an expensive hull when there is an easy to get into and cheap option available that almost have the same performance?

  • Incorrectly funnel new players: don't get us wrong, we don't want to screw new players, on the contrary. The core problem here is that tech 1 frigates and cruisers should be appealing enough to be viable platforms in both PvE and PvP. What's the point of a Bellicose? Exequror? Maller? Moa? They shouldn't be things you just skip on the way to a greater purpose, like a leaf of salad in my 250gr double-layered onion and egg hamburger.

  • Have odd, conflicting, or too much versatile roles: Drake has both a shield resistance and damage bonus, making it quite effective at passive tanking, but doesn't give it a focused purpose. Then you have the Myrmidon, which doesn't really know what it is supposed to do, like some Japanese anime characters don't know which gender they are trying to be: it's a mix of a turret ship without turret bonuses (and often ends up with autocannons fitted, the blasphemy), but also is a drone ship for its drone bonuses, while lacking the bandwidth or bay to support this claim. Some examples to solve this could be to turn the Drake in line with the Caracal and Raven in term of role, as a heavy offensive medium range missile platform, and to turn the Myrmidon into a proper drone ship. That would also help having a consistent, logical progression line between the cruiser and battleship roles as well, if we are careful not having the larger versions override the smaller ones.



But why so serious? Let's put a smile on these faces.

There are a lot of ships that needs to be looked into and were not mentioned here: they evolved, they rebelled and they have a plan™. If all goes well, expect a blog to come out soon™.


That's a good post. Some comments:

The main competitor of the Talos is the Tornado, not the Naga. Since both the Tornado and Talos are being used, their balance seems to be pretty good. The late nerf to the Tornado's falloff bonus helped here I think, and the Talos's drones. As for the Naga itself, well, I don't understand how it could be considered overpowered. Sure, it has an impressive DPS advantage beyond ~80 km. Well, it damn well ought to have one, considering that it's easily the slowest t3 BC and also has the lowest scan res. If it didn't have a meaningful DPS advantage at range it would be utterly pointless - see Eagle for what this would look like.

Drake. We need to distinguish between PVE and PVP here. Yes, it's out of whack in PVE. Passive shield tanks are too much in PVE. This is fixable by increasing BC shield recharge times again, to BS levels - and this is a good change because it will have minimal impact on PVP balance. As for PVP, well, is there actually a problem? Is it the most popular PVP BC, or is that the Hurricane? Or is the problem really...

Tier 2 BCs in general. I agree with pretty much everything you've said here - about how tier 2 BCs and the Hurricane and Drake in particular do too much, too well, and overshadow and obsolete too many other ships. Please don't buff the tier 1 BCs, they're actually vaguely balanced with regard to cruisers, close-range HACs and field CS. The only other thing I would comment on is that making a new Drake along the same lines as a Caracal is going to be very difficult - since they both use the same weapon systems, it will be very easy to have a new Drake that's simply a bigger, better Caracal, making the Caracal entirely obsolete (still).
arcca jeth
Dark Alliance
#228 - 2012-01-18 20:45:59 UTC
Sarmatiko wrote:
It's about time to make Drake rebalance.
It is ridiculously frustrating when FC tells to you: "Leave your Arty Cane on station and take Drake instead for another boring blobbing".
Nerf Drake to the ground! Twisted



sounds like your issue is with blobbing being boring, and the FC only preferring drake blobs
arcca jeth
Dark Alliance
#229 - 2012-01-18 20:52:25 UTC
Deviana Sevidon wrote:
The Myrmidon was crippled by the nerfbat a few years ago, because CCP felt that having 5 heavy drones, same as the Ishtar btw. was overpowered. Personally I think passive shield tanking is overpowered, but since 70% of EVE is flying Caldari CCP will certainly not doing something against this.


seriously where do people dream up these numbers? i'll see more Winmatar over Caldari all day. I honestly believe the CCP, the CSM and the forum "Guru's" are delusional sometimes.
Ursula LeGuinn
Perkone
Caldari State
#230 - 2012-01-18 20:53:52 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
EFT loadout


I was gonna say, I have a Drake fit saved in EFT right now that shows the following with all skills level 5:

137,284 EHP
82% EM | 85.5% Th | 79.6% Kin | 83% Ex
278 Shield Defense
cap stable @64%

That's with T1 rigs, no implants and no mods better than T2.

"The EVE forums are intended to provide a warm, friendly atmosphere for the EVE community." — EVElopedia
Buff Jesus
#231 - 2012-01-18 20:54:32 UTC
Gypsio III wrote:
The only other thing I would comment on is that making a new Drake along the same lines as a Caracal is going to be very difficult - since they both use the same weapon systems, it will be very easy to have a new Drake that's simply a bigger, better Caracal, making the Caracal entirely obsolete (still).


That's kind of the point. It cost's ~10x as much and you get a ship that is ~10x as good.

New Favorite Eve Hobby: Bumping BS's with a Crow.
Butzewutze
Doomheim
#232 - 2012-01-18 20:57:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Butzewutze
Mutnin wrote:
Mr Kidd wrote:
So it looks like the Drake is going to get a tank nerf and a damage buff. I'm fine with that. However, singling out one ship from Caldari is doing the rest of the races a disservice. Nerf the Drake and the Tengu becomes more popular for PVP. Caldari is unbalanced, not for any single ship, but for the pure fact that many of their ships can have relatively insane tanks that regenerate and their main weaponry, missiles, don't require any cap. While I'm not in favor of changing missiles to utilize cap, I am in favor of a tank nerf that combats the advantages that capless weaponry avails the race over the others compounded by a rechargeable tank.

In essence, Caldari is able to divert all of their cap to even a passive tank that regens. Neuting Caldari, unlike Amarr and Gallente, doesn't pacify the target. They just keep firing. I realize that Minmatar also avails itself of this ability with its capless weaponry but, in general are armor tankers and therefore don't have a built in buff regeneration and so is more balanced.



You must not PVP much.. a PVP fit Drake uses "active" invun fields which can very much because the tank to be affected by neuting. In fact it's why the Hurricane is one of the best BC's to kill a Draker, because you can fit 425mm AC's choose your ammo type with full damage bonus and 2x med neuts that will neut the cap away from a Drake shutting off the Invuns and have crazy DPS to melt it before the pitiful HML damage kills your lesser tank.


HURRICANE - Crazy dps nanocane:
780 dps, 50k EHP

DRAKE - pitiful hml damage
700 dps, 120k(!) EHP, 80K EHP with Invul.fields off

Seriously, do you PVP much? If u can't see something wrong here then you must be blind. Also, who cares about missionrunners? Why we need a bc that can be skilled in 1 week and give newbies the LVL4 ISK machine is beyond me. All other races tier 2 BCs are nerfed in some way but the drake is not. Its actually not nerfed but even better as everything else including commandships, some battleships and hacs.
Mutnin
SQUIDS.
#233 - 2012-01-18 20:58:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Mutnin
Fon Revedhort wrote:
[quote=Mutnin]


You know, they can fix drake so that it becomes balanced in comparison with the rest of the mob.
Or they can - for some weird reason - boost every other ship so that they become balanced in comparison with drake.

Either way, Drakes get balanced, but the first way is shorter thus should be prefered.

Or you're on of those dudes who would level off a small mole's hole in a garden by extracting soil from every inch of the remaining surface?


Ok lets go with your idea.. nerf the only useful ship outside of ECM that Caldari has for PVP. When will the Hurrican get nerfed? When will the Rupture, Vexor & Thorax all get nefed so the MOA & Caracal can be on a level playing field?

When will the Abaddon, Apoc, Geddon, Mega, Dommi, Hyperion, Phoon, Tempest, Mael all get Nefred so the Raven and Rokh can be on a level playing field?
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#234 - 2012-01-18 21:00:23 UTC
Buff Jesus wrote:
Gypsio III wrote:
The only other thing I would comment on is that making a new Drake along the same lines as a Caracal is going to be very difficult - since they both use the same weapon systems, it will be very easy to have a new Drake that's simply a bigger, better Caracal, making the Caracal entirely obsolete (still).


That's kind of the point. It cost's ~10x as much and you get a ship that is ~10x as good.


Diminishing returns for ISK invested is a fundamental rule of EVE. If it costs 10x as much, it cannot be 10x as good. Even 3x is pushing it. It doesn't cost 10x as much anyway.,

In any case, it's so easy to make ISK these days that the difference between, say, 2 mill and 20 mill is fairly inconsequential.
Mutnin
SQUIDS.
#235 - 2012-01-18 21:02:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Mutnin
Butzewutze wrote:



HURRICANE - Crazy dps nanocane:
780 dps, 50k EHP

DRAKE - pitiful hml damage
700 dps, 120k(!) EHP, 80K EHP with Invul.fields off

Seriously, do u PVP much? If u cant see something wrong here then u must be blind. Also, who cares about Missionrunners? Why do we need a bc that can be skilled in 1 week and give newbies the LVL4 ISK machine is beyond me. All other races tier 2 BCs are nerfed in some way but the drake is not. Its actually not nerfed but even better as everything else including commandships, some battleships and hacs.


You go from one extrreme to one average fit.. to prove your point?

The average HAM Drake does not have 80k EHP with Invuns off.. please try again.. Also 90% of the Drakes used in PVP out there are HML fits, because HAM only work well in certain situations. I suspect your HAM drake is some carebear station humping fit with no MWD so please come back when you are talking about "actual" PVP fits that are used in space not humping some station.

Also at best you are talking a max skilled pilot not some average guy that will be flying the ship. I can make a Catylist that does around 700DPS but that doesn't mean it's useful for anything out side ganking a Hulk.

Not to mention the Hurricane can fit it's max weapons 425's with no need to use a power grid upgrade and can fit either shield or armor tank. Please don't tell me the Hurricane is less OP than a Drake because I will laugh my @55 off at you. Not to mention the Ham fit 425 Cyclone that has a nasty active tank from Hell and does over 600dps. It will Kill that HAM drake any day of the week if the pilot is half competent.

The Minmatar tier 1 BC will curb stomp either Drake fit. So do we even need to mention the Hurricane?

Also quit with the BS of skilling it in 1 week.

It takes at min 2 months to spec out a decent Gang Drake fit for a semi competent gang. using +3 implants and the base nerual maping.

In that 2 months the pilot gets basically 1 decent ship which is the Drake + a Kestral & a Caracal. In that same 2 months a Minmatar Pilot gets a Hurricane, Thrasher, Rifter, Stabber & Rupture. So please quite whining about Caldari Drakes.

Drakes are so popular because they are the only useful Caldari "gang" ship that is not a Tengu or a Falcon.
Diva Ex Machina
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#236 - 2012-01-18 21:19:06 UTC
As a new player, please don't nerf my drake! I beg you CCP. Sad
Zircon Dasher
#237 - 2012-01-18 21:21:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Zircon Dasher
Step 1) Nuke targeting range on all subBS hulls. Leave room for expanded ranges on t2+t3 varients. Take gangboosters into account when determining new ranges.

Step 2) Nuke LR weapon ranges in proportion to new lock ranges. Buff t2 LR ammo range multiplier: If you want the range fit sebos and deal with worse tracking/slower speeds.

All fixed.
LolLolLol

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.
Max Essen
Bison Industrial Inc
#238 - 2012-01-18 21:24:14 UTC
Mutnin wrote:
[quote=Fon Revedhort]

Ok lets go with your idea.. nerf the only useful ship outside of ECM that Caldari has for PVP. When will the Hurrican get nerfed? When will the Rupture, Vexor & Thorax all get nefed so the MOA & Caracal can be on a level playing field?

When will the Abaddon, Apoc, Geddon, Mega, Dommi, Hyperion, Phoon, Tempest, Mael all get Nefred so the Raven and Rokh can be on a level playing field?


Error detected. All Gallente ships come pre-nerfed for your gaming pleasure. Big smile
This was accomplished a few years back and we've been sucking hind-tit ever since.
Mutnin
SQUIDS.
#239 - 2012-01-18 21:33:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Mutnin
Max Essen wrote:
Mutnin wrote:
[quote=Fon Revedhort]

Ok lets go with your idea.. nerf the only useful ship outside of ECM that Caldari has for PVP. When will the Hurrican get nerfed? When will the Rupture, Vexor & Thorax all get nefed so the MOA & Caracal can be on a level playing field?

When will the Abaddon, Apoc, Geddon, Mega, Dommi, Hyperion, Phoon, Tempest, Mael all get Nefred so the Raven and Rokh can be on a level playing field?


Error detected. All Gallente ships come pre-nerfed for your gaming pleasure. Big smile
This was accomplished a few years back and we've been sucking hind-tit ever since.




Gallente ships are my personal favorites for soloing. Active tank Myrm is godly in small gang fights or even solo and I will take a Vexor any day of the week over any other T1 non faction cruiser. The only T1 non faction cruiser that is better than the Vexor is the Rupture. However The Vexor has a much wider range of targets being the Rupture is weak against frigs.

The "only" reason I stopped flying Myrms in trade for Hurricanes was because everyone went to nano shield tanks and the Myrm was too easy to get caught in the areas I now live. However in Quiet areas I will always prefeer the Myrm over any other BC.

The only reason I later switched to Drakes over Hurricanes is because I started dual boxing two combat ships to expand my target range and 2x Drakes are simply much easier to deal with vs 2 times Hurricanes or Myrms.

There is nothing wrong with Gallente ships, they are just not the best gang ships. Much the same as Amarr has awesome gang ships but very few good solo ships. Minmatar is the only race that has excellent solo & gang ships with-in the same ship hulls. Caldari again has the Drake.. It's a great Gang ship and a OK solo ship but nothing spectacular on the solo side.

You have to move to T2 or Faction to get very good Caldari frigs and for T2 cruisers Caldari just has the Falcon as a Cerb is pretty useless because you might as well just fly a Drake.

T2 Caldari Cruiser.. Cerb? why bother just fly a Drake.. Onyx? Minmatar Dictor is usually better.. Logistics? Scimi is better in almost all shield gangs. Eagle? aren't they extinct?

T2 Cal BCs.. Ever see a Vulture in space.. I think they are also extinct.. Nighthawk? Yea some guys made a video once with them they are pretty good, but for PVP most of time Slep is better. (ok give Gals this one they actually have worse command ships than Caldari)


Again Fix Caldari's other ships and the Drake becomes less used. Roll
Zircon Dasher
#240 - 2012-01-18 21:36:29 UTC
Stop flying nano-ruppies?

Nerfing High-sec is never the answer. It is the question. The answer is 'YES'.