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CCP SoniClover: "Uber-balanced utopia vs ever-changing environment".

Author
Dzajic
#21 - 2012-01-17 14:50:59 UTC
Stagnation is bad. FOTM race is worse. Point of balance is for there not to be one single wining combo. FOTM race just favors bittervets with 100M SP who can fly anything and don't really care.
Karl Planck
Perkone
Caldari State
#22 - 2012-01-17 14:51:29 UTC
Wot I Think wrote:

OP changes from "Win"matar to "Whine"matar.


nominated for quote of the week

I has all the eve inactivity

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#23 - 2012-01-17 15:14:21 UTC
There are three slightly different things going on here.

The quote seems to say “new things for the sake of new things”, which just seems pointless. If there is no purpose to the new stuff, it will only render old stuff obsolete (or be obsolete on arrival) while fluffing up the client with more data and making poor newbies confused. It adds a thin veneer of complexity which will only trip up those who aren't yet familiar enough with the game to see through it — those who do will only really see a new set of ships being relegated to the scrap heap.

The OP suggests that the opposite of this is balance, which is interesting, but largely unachievable since there will always be advantages to be had and since the metagame changes regardless. This just creates a FOTM that is longer than a month. At the same time, I reject the CCP view that balance would lack fluidity and dynamism. Again, the players will see to it that it doesn't: there will always be new strategies and tactics that obviates the old “best” way of doing things, so I'm not entirely sure there is any real dichotomy here.

The third option, in my view, far more interesting: don't add pointless new stuff for the sake of it being new — just stir the existing stuff to make things come and go. Add new stuff if there is something new to add (which can then be part of the next stirring session).
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#24 - 2012-01-17 16:12:25 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:

I don't know about you but EVE will not get more boring if their is a viable Rail Ferox at the same Time as a viable Nano Cane.

If there is a viable rail ferox the universe will collapse in on itself in protest.
Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#25 - 2012-01-17 16:14:30 UTC
"what if"

If people play responsibly then no change would be needed as people will fly for fun, have fun in the game and lose/win will not matter since it would be fun to be part of such event.
However people are people which doom any "stale" content since if it can get exploited it will be.
Halcyon Ingenium
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#26 - 2012-01-17 16:16:40 UTC
CCP confirmed as Tzeentch. Embrace Chaos.

By the way, since we're already talking, do you want to buy a rifter? I've got the cheapest rifters in Metropolis. If you can find a cheaper rifter, buy it!

Korsiri
Defying Vision
#27 - 2012-01-17 17:50:49 UTC
Well, imo, it goes like this:

Nothing is ever balanced, even when devs try to balance it, something always gets tilted towards the less than preferred, either because players find a way around something, or because the ramifications simply don't show until the change takes place in the 'live' environment.

While I don't think the idea of balance should be totally abandoned, I do think it should take a definite backseat to change. If these games were to stay static, instead of evolving, they'd not keep their population. Admittedly when change happens either too fast, or when it happens despite vocal response from the majority of players, there are also problems.

The nature of these games is change, and especially in a sandbox game imo, this is true. Rather than worry about it, embrace it! I like the approach quoted by the OP because it's more logical than trying to make everything 'balanced' (and pissing just about everyone off). We don't want a cookie cutter approach, we want the excitement of figuring, and re-figuring, out what works, and what works best! To me, that is the Eve universe.
Gypsio III
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#28 - 2012-01-17 18:01:09 UTC
CCP SoniClover wrote:
Just a quick note on why we're looking into adding new modules, rather than focus completely on fixing/balancing existing stuff - what we're looking into is creating a fluid tactical environment that shifts over time. So we're not looking into creating an uber-balanced utopia ala Starcraft II that, once achieved, we can then walk away from. Rather, we want to achieve a more chaotic environment where 'best' fittings change rapidly and the value of items (modules, rigs, ships) is relative based on the current metagame rather than fixed in eternity. The idea is that a fluid, ever-changing environment like that will have more long-term appeal in a game like EVE than a static uber-balanced system does.


The existence of this choice is specious. Eve is so complex that the "uber-balanced utopia" is not achievable in practice, and attempting to achieve it simply results in the aforementioned "fluid tactical environment".
mkint
#29 - 2012-01-17 19:50:59 UTC
In other words "we in balancing are not good enough to actually balance anything, so we'll just throw a constant stream of OP'd sh!t out until everyone gets fed up."

Maxim 6. If violence wasn’t your last resort, you failed to resort to enough of it.

ElQuirko
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2012-01-17 20:22:32 UTC
For god's sake, this isn't Team Fortress 2. Change is good.

Dodixie > Hek

Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#31 - 2012-01-17 20:24:54 UTC
I support CCP's approach.

Keep changing.

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!

Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#32 - 2012-01-17 20:56:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Nova Fox
Cough

Arms Race

You forget empires are at war with each other and they are constantly looking to ways to one up against thier adversaries.

New Technologies will emerge becuase of the arms race. Its is time to shake things up. Ill leave it to the community and ccp to balance things I rather have FOTMs if they are only FOTMS for that month and ccp fixes it quickly.

And this happens in real life if you want to go argue that route. The best example the most powerful ship at sea before ww2? the battleship
post ww2 the carrier.
Even more interestingly before ww2 started the carrier concept was LAUGHED AT and almost dismissed entirely.

And yes I am posting there with reckless abandon its lightning round in the brainstorming idea table, ccp should know what is better what sounds bad and sounds good or what ideas they can pick apart and peice back together in thier vision as good I expect none of my suggestions to even be remotely close to what I imagine them to be but its not stopping me from posting or inspiring something from happening. I wouldnt mind seeing a whole slew of ejectable modules that add performance for a short duration or new functionality. Just like extended fuel tanks on fighter jets today, tanks extend the range of the bird and if in a dire situation they will eject the tanks to gain more agility.

I will say this though.

Adapt or Die Trying

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.

Gripen
#33 - 2012-01-17 23:26:29 UTC
So far I'm amazed how many people didn't read first post fully and didn't get that it's NOT about new stuff vs rebalance old stuff dilemma... Probably there were too many threads about it. =\
Mars Theran
Foreign Interloper
#34 - 2012-01-18 00:22:24 UTC
Cyzlaki wrote:
Disagree. Constant nerfing and buffing is the same as WoW, having to re-spec every patch and suddenly all your gear is worthless. Same thing here. Every patch will change the game which is terrible in a game where you have to wait for skills to finish in real-time.

It's just a cop out really. He's basically saying they don't know how to balance the game. If it was truly balanced it would not be stagnant at all, it would always be about player skill, not overpowered ships and modules.



This isn't WoW; there is no respec. Nerfing and Buffing sucks too, when it's done for the wrong reasons; but this also isn't nerfing and buffing.

What will change with patches that have new modules and ships in them, (expect next Winter I imagine), is that people will have to rethink how they approach systems that change because of new introductions along this line. That process is called adaption, and it is a healthy process.

CCP can balance the game with regards to ships, modules, and the mechanics of those devices; but you all have to keep your traps shut and let them run numbers on it. Numbers being partially figurative.

If CCP made a server strictly for testing ships, and gave everybody a Test Server alt with SP intended for specific testing; then took samples of all the data that resulted from it, we'd probably see some results. Just one node, constellation, and server; cap of 200 players.

No mirrors. Just a generic test character when you log in; same as everybody else. Ships in the hangar; prefit and ready to fly. You've got 10 minutes to get a feel for it, and take it out for a spin; then everybody gets rallied for fleets, gangs, solo flying, or whatever. Server is unreachable outside of monitored testing.

Base requirement: You have 15 Million SP on one character/toon on your account you log in with; generic toon takes up a slot, and it disregards your actual toons. Need more than one type of generic toon; then you still have 2 slots to fill.

zubzubzubzubzubzubzubzub
Mars Theran
Foreign Interloper
#35 - 2012-01-18 00:28:38 UTC
Nova Fox wrote:
Cough

Arms Race

You forget empires are at war with each other and they are constantly looking to ways to one up against thier adversaries.

New Technologies will emerge becuase of the arms race. Its is time to shake things up. Ill leave it to the community and ccp to balance things I rather have FOTMs if they are only FOTMS for that month and ccp fixes it quickly.

And this happens in real life if you want to go argue that route. The best example the most powerful ship at sea before ww2? the battleship
post ww2 the carrier.
Even more interestingly before ww2 started the carrier concept was LAUGHED AT and almost dismissed entirely.

And yes I am posting there with reckless abandon its lightning round in the brainstorming idea table, ccp should know what is better what sounds bad and sounds good or what ideas they can pick apart and peice back together in thier vision as good I expect none of my suggestions to even be remotely close to what I imagine them to be but its not stopping me from posting or inspiring something from happening. I wouldnt mind seeing a whole slew of ejectable modules that add performance for a short duration or new functionality. Just like extended fuel tanks on fighter jets today, tanks extend the range of the bird and if in a dire situation they will eject the tanks to gain more agility.

I will say this though.

Adapt or Die Trying


EVE isn't about the Empires, except in the barest sense of the notion. Empires in EVE only produce the technological advancements for Capsuleers to use; where Capsuleers make use of it as they see fit. I don't know if you've looked around recently; but the Empire involvement in these 'Wars' has devolved into political maneuvering and not much else.

Independent NPC Corporations in EVE are more likely to produce technological advancements for the Capsuleers, than the Empires; and I think this is where all newer technology should come from, with only a few exceptions. Certainly, the Empires use them to produce their Technological advancements; so there is no reason they cannot research and develop their own.
zubzubzubzubzubzubzubzub
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#36 - 2012-01-18 00:30:06 UTC
Gripen wrote:
So far I'm amazed how many people didn't read first post fully and didn't get that it's NOT about new stuff vs rebalance old stuff dilemma... Probably there were too many threads about it. =\


Poor title choice my friend extremly poor title choice.
Also I leave it to the community to summarize wall of text OPs they're brutally efficent at it and regardless its what the conversation did evolve into.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.

Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#37 - 2012-01-18 00:32:22 UTC
Mars Theran wrote:


EVE isn't about the Empires, except in the barest sense of the notion. Empires in EVE only produce the technological advancements for Capsuleers to use; where Capsuleers make use of it as they see fit. I don't know if you've looked around recently; but the Empire involvement in these 'Wars' has devolved into political maneuvering and not much else.

Independent NPC Corporations in EVE are more likely to produce technological advancements for the Capsuleers, than the Empires; and I think this is where all newer technology should come from, with only a few exceptions. Certainly, the Empires use them to produce their Technological advancements; so there is no reason they cannot research and develop their own.


Is this self contradiction or am I imagining things?

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.

Mars Theran
Foreign Interloper
#38 - 2012-01-18 00:50:10 UTC
Gripen wrote:
So far I'm amazed how many people didn't read first post fully and didn't get that it's NOT about new stuff vs rebalance old stuff dilemma... Probably there were too many threads about it. =\


I'm fairly certain it's not new stuff for the sake of new stuff, as you seem to imply. You're a little ambiguous though; in that you do not focus an argument directly, but rather make reference to another game and some multi-expansion release schedule you have to pay for every time.

I don't see the relation.

EVE needs new stuff. Everything in this game is tired and old. The economy is dreadfully predictable, despite it being ludicrously competative. Ship fitting has been the same since I started playing, with exception to FOTM ships like Nanocanes which were really just a briefly discovered and celebrated hole in the fitting process.

People try new things because they are bored, find something like that, (or usually stumble across it because a newb fit it against all protocols and procedures), and just like that it gets spammed all over EVE until someone decides to nerf it.

Nerfbat in; clever ship out.

The imbalance in this game is as often player caused, as just being a limited way of exploiting fitting mechanics that creates a opportunity for a particularly special fit. I'm fairly certain the Devs were-at the very least-close to balanced before the players started complaining about overpowered ships.

Unfortunately, players tend to blow things way out of proportion and exagerate everything; and sometimes the nerf isn't even remotely justified. Fortunately, it hasn't often ended in complete destruction.

So, new things are good. They force players to adapt to new situations and a changing environment; new opportunities arise, and the balance of power shifts ever so slightly. Sometimes it's more drastic, but let's face it; no little grouping of modules hitting the market is going to result in that much change. *snicker*

Okay, it's a possibility, but not overly likely.

zubzubzubzubzubzubzubzub
Mars Theran
Foreign Interloper
#39 - 2012-01-18 00:52:15 UTC
Nova Fox wrote:
Mars Theran wrote:


EVE isn't about the Empires, except in the barest sense of the notion. Empires in EVE only produce the technological advancements for Capsuleers to use; where Capsuleers make use of it as they see fit. I don't know if you've looked around recently; but the Empire involvement in these 'Wars' has devolved into political maneuvering and not much else.

Independent NPC Corporations in EVE are more likely to produce technological advancements for the Capsuleers, than the Empires; and I think this is where all newer technology should come from, with only a few exceptions. Certainly, the Empires use them to produce their Technological advancements; so there is no reason they cannot research and develop their own.


Is this self contradiction or am I imagining things?


It's only a contradiction if the Corporations are not private entities. That doesn't mean governments can't stop private corporations from doing something.

Maybe you were referring to something else; but I'm guessing that's what you mean.
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Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#40 - 2012-01-18 00:55:02 UTC
Just saying all of the new battlecruisers are empire comissioned.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.

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